Forums: General: Introductions and Greets:
Being down with the sickness!

 


Darktower

Oct 24, 2011, 9:42 AM
Post #1 of 19 (1304 views)
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Being down with the sickness! Can't Post

  Hello everybody! First time poster, been lurking for a while. I've really enjoyed reading the insights, arguments (who is sanji?), and the overall banter amongst you guys. A little history about me...

To start off, I've had many static line (military) jumps in the 90's. I always enjoyed the experience and craved more time in freefall. The chutes I used were of course, as you probably know, the round ones. Those things were only good for a modest bit of control and getting you to the ground fast.

I have recently completed my AFF level 1 course (will not mention with whom....which will be self explanatory later) and I can definitely say I've caught the bug. That feeling of my body pushing through the air at that speed, the amount of time I had in freefall and the scenery.....all came together in a perfect mix.

My only concern and something I would like to ask the instructors amongst you especially....

The person doing ground control demonstrated the exchange between them and some other students. This including following the landing pattern, altitude placement and the final flare.

During the malfunction and canopy control part of class it was reiterated not to flare too soon, as this has injured more than a few.

As a result, when I came in for my final approach, I was waiting for ground control to let me know when to flare, just as happened with the other students. Unfortunately, the command to flare came too late. I did manage to just get to half brake before I hit the ground but just barely.

I knew from my previous experience that it seemed like I was coming in too close and too fast. Yet, understanding my lack of experience and especially the length of time since my last jump. I did not want to make my own judgement call.

I walked away from the landing, which fits my definition of a good jump. Yet my PLF wasn't sufficient enough to make up for the force of the hit. The result is a very sore backside (lol).

While not pleasant, the experience was wonderful and one that I will not walk away from.

My question is: Given the length of time since my last jump (over ten years), was my response (waiting on the flare command) initially a correct one? Yes, I know I could say, "well you got hurt so no it wasn't Crazy". Yet, I believe a large part of being able to take that leap o' faith, is having trust for your instructors.

P.s. (two days later and my left ear STILL pops!)

Like this website, love the forum banter and hope to make it a permanent relationship.

Blue Skies!Smile


Marinus

Oct 24, 2011, 12:15 PM
Post #2 of 19 (1244 views)
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Re: [Darktower] Being down with the sickness! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Being down with the sickness!


JAY!!!

http://video.google.com/...=2704914069624298394

Anyway, that's what the topic title reminded me off.

welcome...


(This post was edited by Marinus on Oct 24, 2011, 12:19 PM)


Darktower

Oct 24, 2011, 12:42 PM
Post #3 of 19 (1238 views)
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Re: [Marinus] Being down with the sickness! [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Lol! That wasn't quite the version I had in mind! Still hilarious though!


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Oct 24, 2011, 1:03 PM
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Re: [Darktower] Being down with the sickness! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm going to assume that you had radio assist. However, what I will tell you applies across the board for any ground-student communication.

In reply to:
The person doing ground control demonstrated the exchange between them and some other students. This including following the landing pattern, altitude placement and the final flare.
This is good and is included in every FJC where radio assist is used. Hopefully, they also included "when" to flare and "how" to flare

In reply to:
During the malfunction and canopy control part of class it was reiterated not to flare too soon, as this has injured more than a few.
This is good, too. Hopefully they included more info for you about "why" and just what "too soon" really is. And, hopefully, a repetition or two on what IS correct.

In reply to:
As a result, when I came in for my final approach, I was waiting for ground control to let me know when to flare,
Here's where the action begins....

For whatever assist you had, let me ask...does it make sense to wait for someone to tell you what to do when (as so often happens) the ground-student communication fails?
For example....what if the radio doesn't work, you can't hear it, the ground guy goes to sleep, you can't see the flags/paddles or whatever else is used.

In reply to:
I knew from my previous experience that it seemed like I was coming in too close and too fast. Yet, understanding my lack of experience and especially the length of time since my last jump. I did not want to make my own judgement call.
And there's where the dependence on others got you into trouble.

In reply to:
Yet my PLF wasn't sufficient enough to make up for the force of the hit. The result is a very sore backside (lol).
So, now you know you need to practice PLFs more, eh?

In reply to:
My question is: Given the length of time since my last jump (over ten years), was my response (waiting on the flare command) initially a correct one?
So, here goes.
Bottom line: No, your decision to wait on the flare command was NOT the correct one. Your job is to handle your own self. You cannot depend on others to save your rear end. And that applies to all phases of skydiving. Yes, others will assist as much as they can but the ultimate responsibility is yours and yours alone.

Having trust in your instructors and depending on them is two different things. You may trust them to do whatever they can to help, but you cannot depend on them to do it for you.

In reality, you may have escaped may injury here given the late flare and the, let's say, less-than-ideal PLF.


Now, personally, were I you, when talking to my instructors, I would make double and triple sure that I understand what the right thing for me to do really is so that I could do it on my own without assistance of any sort.

This is how I teach my students. I teach them everything they need to know so that they can handle things themselves without assistance. Yes, we are still there assisting, but I prepare them well for those times when they can't hear or see the assistance.


Hope this helps.


Darktower

Oct 24, 2011, 1:42 PM
Post #5 of 19 (1225 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Being down with the sickness! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
For whatever assist you had, let me ask...does it make sense to wait for someone to tell you what to do when (as so often happens) the ground-student communication fails?
For example....what if the radio doesn't work, you can't hear it, the ground guy goes to sleep, you can't see the flags/paddles or whatever else is used

First of all, thanks for the informative reply.

I definitely understand that relying on communication can quickly lead to problems (which it did). I suppose I doubted my judgement perhaps when I shouldn't have. My mind was screaming, "flare flare!" probably two or three seconds before the command was given.

I know now in the future to pretty much just rely on that judgement.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Oct 24, 2011, 4:05 PM
Post #6 of 19 (1212 views)
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Re: [Darktower] Being down with the sickness! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I know now in the future to pretty much just rely on that judgement.
Which, BTW, is a good method of learning (but that's NOT to say, disregard your instructors...by no means). For example.

"Well, THIS landing, I flared a little too high so NEXT time I'll flare just a bit lower."

Or, conversely, "THIS time I flared a little too low so NEXT time I'll flare a little higher."

That general idea can apply across-the-board for nearly all of your skydive learning.

Squares are a lot different than them ol' round suckers, eh?
It's going to take practice and it will come faster if you're able to use the information from one jump to adjust for the next.

Pointers:
-Try to fly the same canopy until you get a good feel for flight characteristics and flare time.

-Be aware that changing wind conditions, wind speed and direction for example, will alter that decision-making process somewhat...nothing insurmountable if you stay within your student wind limitations.

-Be aware that different canopies, make, model and size, for instance will also alter that decision-making process.

-Make safe canopy flight a Number 1 priority...and keep that mind-set your entire skydiving career.

-Smile! If you ain't smilin', you ain't doin' it right!
LaughSmile


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Oct 24, 2011, 4:06 PM)


dks13827  (C 9293)

Oct 24, 2011, 5:44 PM
Post #7 of 19 (1201 views)
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Being down with the sickness! [In reply to] Can't Post

Instructors: Follow this protocol on the radio :

Stand by to flare.. stand by......
Flare Flare Flare !!!!!!


Students: see above.


Darktower

Oct 24, 2011, 6:36 PM
Post #8 of 19 (1194 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Being down with the sickness! [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Definitely will take note in the future to flare earlier. I also will always listen instructors and others that I know have been there and done that.

I'm thinking that after I graduate AFF, I'm going to go straight into really learning how to fly those canopies. From my understanding, most of the injuries and deaths occur while under canopy.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Oct 24, 2011, 9:11 PM
Post #9 of 19 (1184 views)
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Re: [dks13827] Being down with the sickness! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Instructors: Follow this protocol on the radio :

Stand by to flare.. stand by......
Flare Flare Flare !!!!!!


Students: see above.

Ahhhhhh....No.

If you are going to use a technique like that, here's a suggestion to avoid using the word "flare" until you actually mean it:

"Hands UP! Feet and knees together!
Hands UP!
Hands UP!
Hands UP!
and...Flare, Flare, Flare."




You can always add On...
"HOLD IT! HOLD IT! PLF! PLF! PLF!
Good job!"

... and off-radio, "Whew! he made it!"

LaughLaughLaugh


Premier skymama  (D 26699)
Moderator
Oct 25, 2011, 6:42 AM
Post #10 of 19 (1166 views)
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Re: [Darktower] Being down with the sickness! [In reply to] Can't Post

Welcome to the forums! Smile Yes, you do need to have faith in your instructors but at the end of the day, you are the pilot of your canopy and it's up to you to make sure you don't hurt others or yourself.

One reminder for when you're trying to decide when to flare is to look out in front of you instead of down at the ground.


MikeJD  (D 10605)

Oct 27, 2011, 6:58 AM
Post #11 of 19 (1140 views)
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Re: [Darktower] Being down with the sickness! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
the experience was wonderful and one that I will not walk away from.

You might want to reconsider this choice of words. Laugh

Seriously, welcome. Glad you're having fun! Smile


TriGirl  (B License)

Oct 30, 2011, 3:19 AM
Post #12 of 19 (1116 views)
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Re: [Marinus] Being down with the sickness! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Being down with the sickness!


JAY!!!

http://video.google.com/...=2704914069624298394

Anyway, that's what the topic title reminded me off.

welcome...

Cool! Now I understand all the words to that song. Thanks! LaughLaugh


Marinus

Oct 30, 2011, 5:21 AM
Post #13 of 19 (1115 views)
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Re: [TriGirl] Being down with the sickness! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Cool! Now I understand all the words to that song. Thanks!

You're Welcome Smile


dks13827  (C 9293)

Oct 30, 2011, 9:50 AM
Post #14 of 19 (1105 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Being down with the sickness! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Instructors: Follow this protocol on the radio :

"Hands UP! Feet and knees together!
Hands UP!
Hands UP!
Hands UP!
and...Flare, Flare, Flare."




You can always add On...
"HOLD IT! HOLD IT! PLF! PLF! PLF!
Good job!"

... and off-radio, "Whew! he made it!"

LaughLaughLaugh
Yes, I like that approach. Part of the intent here
is to clue in the student that you are good to go
on comm and the instructors attention. If you dont get the preliminary call for landing, you are on your own and you know it, hopefully you remember your training for that !


diver90  (D 32991)

Jan 25, 2013, 5:09 PM
Post #15 of 19 (951 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Being down with the sickness! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Instructors: Follow this protocol on the radio :

Stand by to flare.. stand by......
Flare Flare Flare !!!!!!


Students: see above.

Ahhhhhh....No.

If you are going to use a technique like that, here's a suggestion to avoid using the word "flare" until you actually mean it:

"Hands UP! Feet and knees together!
Hands UP!
Hands UP!
Hands UP!
and...Flare, Flare, Flare."




You can always add On...
"HOLD IT! HOLD IT! PLF! PLF! PLF!
Good job!"

... and off-radio, "Whew! he made it!"

LaughLaughLaugh

agreed in full, never ever ever mention the F word on the radio until its time for the student to do so, otherwise you have a student effing at 60 feet up and you're praying to baby Jebus they PLF well enough that they dont break themselves


FlyingRhenquest  (B 37920)

Jan 25, 2013, 8:20 PM
Post #16 of 19 (917 views)
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Re: [Darktower] Being down with the sickness! [In reply to] Can't Post

Most of the time I couldn't tell if they were talking to me or someone else on the radio. You quickly learn to use your own judgment. The nice thing about flaring late is it really doesn't take many of those to learn not to do that. I saw one of the AFF guys flare at about 30 feet the other day, though. I have a lot of faith in the PLF, but I'm not sure I'd want to push it as high as he did. He did execute a VERY nice PLF though.

My particular problem with landing during AFF was I always wanted to do my approach with some brakes on. The big canopy already really didn't want to flare, and then I was robbing it of all the momentum it needed, even if I could coax one out of it. The guy teaching the canopy course spotted that right away and told me to quit it, but it still took some time to break the habit.

I had a brain fart once since then, was coming down and looking for other canopies and not realizing I was in about 1/3rd brakes until I was about 20 feet off the ground and by then it was much too late to save the landing, but I knew the moment I realized what I was doing that I had to PLF. I have a 200 foot checklist now that goes "Ok, am I not in brakes, and are my legs still there? No brakes... check... legs... check..."

I still don't know exactly HOW I know when to flare. Now the ground just looks right, at the right time. I'm on a canopy that's right for my size now, and I can actually feel it respond when I tell it to flare.

It takes a while to get a feel for how the canopy handles. If you're not comfortable with it yet, ask your instructor about canopy-handling exercises you can do above your decision altitude to get a better feel for it. Also discuss your landings with that person to see if you can get a better feel for when to trust your instincts and when not to. Though you may find you already know what's "too low". The trick I suppose is not going too far in the other direction when compensating for that.


FlyingRhenquest  (B 37920)

Jan 25, 2013, 8:23 PM
Post #17 of 19 (916 views)
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Re: [Darktower] Being down with the sickness! [In reply to] Can't Post

Ooh! And if you can get someone on the ground to video your landing, that's really nice too! If you an instructor can sit down and watch what you did, he can tell you what you did correctly and if there's anything you should avoid doing. It also gives you a way to see how how you were actually off the ground versus how high it felt when you were landing.


potatoman  (Student)

Jan 28, 2013, 9:32 PM
Post #18 of 19 (830 views)
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Re: [Darktower] Being down with the sickness! [In reply to] Can't Post

Welcome, and welcome to SQAURES.

a reminder that instructors also have a first time on bringing students in etc. It might have been your first jump, but it also might have been your instructors. I am not saying this is true, but you also get instructors with thousands of landings, and some with a couple.

You would probably not know the difference, they all look like skygods.

My 1st jump, they got confused on the radio, I did a downwind landing, fast and onto tarmac. OUCH. Also, PLF did not work good, since my body position reletive to the ground was ass first. So, the best advise someone gave me, take the radio out of your helmet, and do it yourself. It put's you into a space where you have to perform, your canopy will not go back up, so it is nike time when you come down.

There are other techniques, but I will not go into that. Speak to your instructor.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 29, 2013, 4:55 AM
Post #19 of 19 (827 views)
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Re: [FlyingRhenquest] Being down with the sickness! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Most of the time I couldn't tell if they were talking to me or someone else on the radio.
Thanks. This highlights a particular problem with radio assistance. Some DZs, for whatever reason, elected to put multiple students on the same radio frequency. I suspect it's because of the expense pf additional radios. (a lame excuse IMO,but there you have it).
You highlighted the problem: Confusion.
OK...I can end my rant now.
LaughLaugh

In reply to:
I still don't know exactly HOW I know when to flare. Now the ground just looks right, at the right time.
On the contrary, my friend. You do know! You just don't have a name for it. By the power invested upon me by the great state of flala...Florillla..um, e pluribus unum, I present you with this token of knowledge: Sight Picture.

You have trained your eyes for landing. You have the sight picture.
Smile



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