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AFF student tumble/spin - recommendations?

 


pchapman  (D 1014)

Oct 12, 2011, 5:25 AM
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AFF student tumble/spin - recommendations? Can't Post

What do AFFI's recommend for a student who tumbles & spins?

I've got a student (doing PFF in Canada) who has a couple times started a moderate speed rotation, at the point where he's doing a solo unlinked exit. It happened once on a normal exit, once on a deliberate unstable exit. There was some turning, some tumbling, some turning on his back, and some pretty nice looking solo sidespin -- it all combines together until it seems to stop by chance or I go in to block and take out most of the momentum. The rotations aren't really fast, but steady.

Clearly, preventative measures at the beginning would help -- a better arch at the hips, and using arms to turn to oppose any initial turning starting on the hill. (And he has some turning issues in general.)

But how detailed does one get about recovery procedures for a student? During the tumble he may have been trying to arch, but body position isn't always perfect, he often shows some dearch, and legs get flung around. Some of this is his doing but it is harder to prevent limbs from being flung around during a tumble/spin. The short side spin parts are probably aggravated by the legs and arms being uneven too.

He's also been taught the technique to pull an arm in and 'roll out of bed' if he's on his back, as a better method than the simple arch.

How much else do advanced AFF students get taught? I don't think one can make the recommendations too detailed or the student would never get in synch with the airflow. (E.g., if pitching forward and coming face to earth, put arms forward.) There are things like balling up or delta-ing out, that have been taught to traditional solo progression students, but I'm not sure those should be at the top of the list of things to teach.

So is there something useful to work on with the student other than to actually get a proper arch going, and to get consistent in doing turns and countering unwanted ones?


caldwellbuilder  (D 5598)

Oct 12, 2011, 6:48 AM
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Re: [pchapman] AFF student tumble/spin - recommendations? [In reply to] Can't Post

I suggest that the student maintain altitude awareness, do toe taps if they encounter spins and to use counter , (arm) steering to stop spin .


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Oct 12, 2011, 9:17 AM
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Re: [pchapman] AFF student tumble/spin - recommendations? [In reply to] Can't Post

You didn't say what level he's on, but the cure for instability is simple: Arch, Legs, Relax.

Depending on level, he should be trained in rollover, and countering the turn to stop it once he's already relaxed.

It sounds like he's probably stiff, both mentally and physically and getting his lack of relaxation under control is key to his progress.



_Am


Scrumpot  (D License)

Oct 12, 2011, 1:11 PM
Post #4 of 14 (1629 views)
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Re: [pchapman] AFF student tumble/spin - recommendations? [In reply to] Can't Post

The most common error I see students making when they are entering, or unable to effectively correct going into a spin is - that they fail to LOOK IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION of the spin (both when it just 1st begins, and/or if it continues). It is also the most often "missed" I've noticed, observation in any of my supervised coaching jumps debriefs (when a coach comes to me and says he/she cannot see/figure out why their novice is turning). The student may even feel as if he is trying to counter the turn as he/she has been taught, but... if they continue to look instead in the direction of their turn, and not AWAY/OPPOSITE of it as/when they try to correct, they often fail - and it goes from there.

It is amazing how many times just a simple plant that discipline in their brain (to LOOK, turn/correct) nearly instantly (on the next jump) seems to "fix" them.

Sometimes the "obvious" (like as humans and human nature until we develop the skills to over-come them via practice/training - like what MAY be happening in this case: "we tend to go where we look") when we do this so often - just tends to escape us.

Back to heading control basics is probably best here: Heading, arch, legs, relax. LOOK X... turn X. Re-emphasizing the LOOK (1st) as the primary (both corrective and when intended/purposeful) response, I think might help.


towerrat  (D 28189)

Oct 13, 2011, 11:28 AM
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Re: [Scrumpot] AFF student tumble/spin - recommendations? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm with you scrumpot, heading is the key. just like driving off the road because you're looking out the passenger window, you go where you're looking.

Heading
Altimeter
Arch
Legs
Relax.

Basic stuff here guys.


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Oct 13, 2011, 5:17 PM
Post #6 of 14 (1477 views)
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Re: [pchapman] AFF student tumble/spin - recommendations? [In reply to] Can't Post

What worked for me when I was a bad student - the big x :). I could never get a standard arch right so at one point I was taught to just spread out as big as possible. Worked awesome for me. Only had to use it with one of my students but it worked for him too.


jonathan.newman  (D 30644)

Oct 15, 2011, 7:50 PM
Post #7 of 14 (1365 views)
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Re: [pchapman] AFF student tumble/spin - recommendations? [In reply to] Can't Post

It's been said already in this thread.

Heading (look in the direction you want to turn)
Altitude (pull before your AAD fires)
Arch (Stop the tumbles)
Legs (Big contributor to spins, tot taps are good here)
Relax (Stiff as a board, fly like a board)
Turn (only after focusing on all of the above first)

For the student you describe, I would emphasize the arch and relax as key points.

Do any of your coaches or PFF instructors have cameras they could wear?


pchapman  (D 1014)

Oct 16, 2011, 7:16 AM
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Re: [jonathan.newman] AFF student tumble/spin - recommendations? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes we make sure to have instructor video for each PFF jump, and make the vids available to the students. A very useful tool of course.


jackwallace  (Student)

Oct 16, 2011, 12:41 PM
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Re: [pchapman] AFF student tumble/spin - recommendations? [In reply to] Can't Post

Might check to see if the student is picking a spot or a line (road, runway) for heading. I've had them rotate around a spot, not even realizing it.


tdog  (D 28800)

Oct 19, 2011, 6:30 AM
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Re: [pchapman] AFF student tumble/spin - recommendations? [In reply to] Can't Post

Sounds like your student is not concentrating on the most important part of any skydive: Smiling and joking around and having fun!

Telling a student to relax never works for me. But finding creative mind games to distract them is kind of fun for all involved.

2nd point... The simple rules never work with tough students. You have to get creative. A student who can't hold heading, but stays on their belly - sometimes needs to do turns back and forth to feel the turns - instead of doing the same failed jump of not turning over and over again.

Perhaps your student needs a bit of a confidence booster. Maybe you exit a typical RW two way facing each other. After exit, you grip switch, he holds onto your arms and you guys just "feel a fun jump" while your hands are open to toss signals. He has to do nothing other than keep his head up at you and see your huge smile and huge thumbs up. Of course make him smile in freefall. Then do the same jump and after a few seconds, when the body position is dialed in, you let go but keep giving a huge thumbs up and smile...

If he has any body position issues, make sure he understands hand signals, including some you might have to make just for him, so you can throw them. Things like "look here", "check your arms", "knees too wide".

The most fun jumps as an instructor for me are the ones where the student needs a bit of creativity and you break thru their mind block...


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Oct 19, 2011, 8:49 AM
Post #11 of 14 (1169 views)
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Re: [tdog] AFF student tumble/spin - recommendations? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
.......sometimes needs to do turns back and forth to feel the turns - instead of doing the same failed jump of not turning over and over again
.
.
.
.
The most fun jumps as an instructor for me are the ones where the student needs a bit of creativity and you break thru their mind block...

sign of a good instructor


Scrumpot  (D License)

Oct 19, 2011, 10:03 AM
Post #12 of 14 (1159 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] AFF student tumble/spin - recommendations? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
.......sometimes needs to do turns back and forth to feel the turns - instead of doing the same failed jump of not turning over and over again
.
.
.
.
The most fun jumps as an instructor for me are the ones where the student needs a bit of creativity and you break thru their mind block...

sign of a good instructor

+1


jclalor  (B 33202)

Oct 20, 2011, 9:08 AM
Post #13 of 14 (1077 views)
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Re: [pchapman] AFF student tumble/spin - recommendations? [In reply to] Can't Post

Why would ten minutes of tunnel time not be appropriate? It worked great for me.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Oct 20, 2011, 9:22 AM
Post #14 of 14 (1075 views)
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Re: [jclalor] AFF student tumble/spin - recommendations? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why would ten minutes of tunnel time not be appropriate?

Who said it wouldn't be appropriate?
However, keep in mind that not everybody just has such ready access to wind-tunnels absolutely everywhere, and that is also not necessarily either, what was (by the OP) asked.

Glad the tunnel worked for you! That's Cool



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