Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
AAD vs. Actually learning to be safer....

 


HaroldBoyles

Oct 4, 2011, 5:31 PM
Post #1 of 23 (1663 views)
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AAD vs. Actually learning to be safer.... Can't Post

Noob question here. Let me just put it out there I will be jumping an AAD for a while after I get my license and my own gear, plus my DZ requires them.

No doubt there's a need for students to have an AAD with sensory overload and freezing up during stress. But after the sensory overload is over and one can make rational decisions, wouldn't an AAD just mentally give someone insurance to do ballzier stuff in the air knowing "hey, the AAD will save my ass if I mess up". Would not having an AAD make a person be more careful of what they decide to do on a jump and not get too low? Therefore breeding safer jumpers?

I ask because I BMX (two totally different sports with different outcomes if one messes up). From my experience BMXing, when I wear a helmet my balls get bigger and try stuff that I would not normally try. With a helmet I get hurt a lot more than when I don't wear one. When I don't wear a helmet Im forced to take baby steps to get to the big jumps Ill do with a helmet. Which makes me a safer biker, and I learn how to take those steps responsibly without being reckless.

So would skydiving without an AAD (eventually) make someone learn how to be safer rather than going big with a mental attitude that the AAD will save you, making you a better decision maker?

Just asking if there's a correlation with an AAD/going big when your not ready vs. I don't have an AAD/Im not ready to go big yet so Ill learn more before I do. Via having a saftey net or not having one.




Squeak  (E 1313)

Oct 4, 2011, 6:23 PM
Post #3 of 23 (1630 views)
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Re: [HaroldBoyles] AAD vs. Actually learning to be safer.... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Noob question here. Let me just put it out there I will be jumping an AAD for a while after I get my license and my own gear, plus my DZ requires them.

No doubt there's a need for students to have an AAD with sensory overload and freezing up during stress. But after the sensory overload is over and one can make rational decisions, wouldn't an AAD just mentally give someone insurance to do ballzier stuff in the air knowing "hey, the AAD will save my ass if I mess up". Would not having an AAD make a person be more careful of what they decide to do on a jump and not get too low? Therefore breeding safer jumpers?

I ask because I BMX (two totally different sports with different outcomes if one messes up). From my experience BMXing, when I wear a helmet my balls get bigger and try stuff that I would not normally try. With a helmet I get hurt a lot more than when I don't wear one. When I don't wear a helmet Im forced to take baby steps to get to the big jumps Ill do with a helmet. Which makes me a safer biker, and I learn how to take those steps responsibly without being reckless.

So would skydiving without an AAD (eventually) make someone learn how to be safer rather than going big with a mental attitude that the AAD will save you, making you a better decision maker?

Just asking if there's a correlation with an AAD/going big when your not ready vs. I don't have an AAD/Im not ready to go big yet so Ill learn more before I do. Via having a saftey net or not having one.

"A Person" makes their own choices, you apparently made bad ones, based around safety equipment


SRI85  (D License)

Oct 4, 2011, 6:33 PM
Post #4 of 23 (1613 views)
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Re: [HaroldBoyles] AAD vs. Actually learning to be safer.... [In reply to] Can't Post

AADs will save you when someone comes crashing into you in freefall knocking you out.

As for the the mindset of having one and making ballsier choices, well, I think you need to downsize.


Premier rwieder  (C 32349)

Oct 4, 2011, 6:51 PM
Post #5 of 23 (1594 views)
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Re: [HaroldBoyles] AAD vs. Actually learning to be safer.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Just asking if there's a correlation with an AAD/going big when your not ready vs. I don't have an AAD/Im not ready to go big yet so Ill learn more before I do. Via having a saftey net or not having one.

Cheif, there is no safety net when sky diving. Don't ever let safety equipment give you a false sense of security. That would be ignorant at the least, should you choose to improvise such actions. I've never in all my years heard anyone even remotely suggest what I quoted you saying above. What I would offer is Be Safe, Drill, Drill, Drill, have fun and you will make it through this sport without incident.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 4, 2011, 8:05 PM
Post #6 of 23 (1555 views)
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Re: [HaroldBoyles] AAD vs. Actually learning to be safer.... [In reply to] Can't Post

>So would skydiving without an AAD (eventually) make someone learn how
>to be safer rather than going big with a mental attitude that the AAD will
>save you, making you a better decision maker?

Being able to jump without an AAD (and deciding what jumps to make assuming you do not have an AAD) will certainly make you safer. Having that attitude _and_ using an AAD is probably ideal.

I've often suggested that people make a single jump without an AAD (and indeed without an audible, a camera, an altimeter, any gadget at all.) It can be a hop and pop at 5000 feet if they are worried about it. If they would not even consider doing a jump, and react violently to the idea - they may be more reliant on backup devices than is safe.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Oct 4, 2011, 8:48 PM
Post #7 of 23 (1536 views)
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Re: [billvon] AAD vs. Actually learning to be safer.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I've often suggested that people make a single jump without an AAD (and indeed without an audible, a camera, an altimeter, any gadget at all.) It can be a hop and pop at 5000 feet if they are worried about it. If they would not even consider doing a jump, and react violently to the idea - they may be more reliant on backup devices than is safe.

I like that idea. I'm sure the good old boys would take some delight watching the pucker factor manifest itself on the faces of some of todays hotshots.

Seriously though, if they did react in a negative way perhaps they should put a bit of thought into what the hell they are doing there in the first place.


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Oct 4, 2011, 10:29 PM
Post #8 of 23 (1505 views)
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Re: [HaroldBoyles] AAD vs. Actually learning to be safer.... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Would not having an AAD make a person be more careful of what they decide to do on a jump and not get too low? Therefore breeding safer jumpers?
Not necessarily. I did a couple of thousand jumps before I got an AAD. I went through a phase where I was opening below 2000' on virtually every jump for 2 or 300 jumps. I have opened below 1000' several times.
Today I tend to think about AAD height like I used to think about the ground; don't want to scare the opener, need to be open well above it so I can have a mal and still be under reserve and not scare it. Over the last 2000 jumps I can count the number of times I have opened below 2000' on one hand. I am rarely below 3000'.


EOCS  (C License)

Oct 5, 2011, 12:45 AM
Post #9 of 23 (1455 views)
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Re: [HaroldBoyles] AAD vs. Actually learning to be safer.... [In reply to] Can't Post

From my limited experience i can say this. AAD is not only meant to save you should you make a mistake, but also if others make a mistake what affects you. Personally since i still jump rental gear from our club i watch them check the gear then go over it myself, check the AAD is on then forget its there. The AAD isnt really a Helmet but rather a last hope for you to survive if you are unable to save yourself. Personally i wont jump without one. This vid might give a better idea...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmMFRywrpsM&feature=related

My 2 cents


nigel99  (D 1)

Oct 5, 2011, 2:11 AM
Post #10 of 23 (1431 views)
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Re: [HaroldBoyles] AAD vs. Actually learning to be safer.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Tommy Piras is the most vivid example I have of why AAD's are good.

He was one of the most experienced and best skydivers in the world and if his AAD had been turned on he would have probably lived.

Secondly AAD's don't necessarily save you. They are setup to trigger at the last possible moment (750ft aproximately). It does not take much of a pilot chute hesitation or any other aspect that slows down the opening for you to impact at unsurvivable speeds.


waveoff5500  (D 32087)

Oct 6, 2011, 9:54 AM
Post #11 of 23 (1225 views)
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Re: [HaroldBoyles] AAD vs. Actually learning to be safer.... [In reply to] Can't Post

"I ask because I BMX (two totally different sports with different outcomes if one messes up). From my experience BMXing, when I wear a helmet my balls get bigger and try stuff that I would not normally try. With a helmet I get hurt a lot more than when I don't wear one. When I don't wear a helmet Im forced to take baby steps to get to the big jumps Ill do with a helmet. Which makes me a safer biker, and I learn how to take those steps responsibly without being reckless. "

that is the most ridiculous thing ive ever heard. you can get wrecked with or without a helmet doing stupid things that you wouldnt think would even require a helmet. you need to change your attitude on safety before you wind up in a wheel chair sipping your food through a straw.


zen_mtn_climber  (B 35734)

Oct 6, 2011, 11:26 AM
Post #12 of 23 (1187 views)
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Re: [waveoff5500] AAD vs. Actually learning to be safer.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Not ridiculous at all . . google 'risk homeostasis' or read this article from here on DZ.com

http://www.dropzone.com/...tail_page.cgi?ID=663


Andy9o8  (D License)

Oct 6, 2011, 12:35 PM
Post #13 of 23 (1152 views)
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Re: [HaroldBoyles] AAD vs. Actually learning to be safer.... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
AAD vs. Actually learning to be safer.

That's just silly. They're not mutually exclusive. Dumb sound bytes like that are a poor way to start a serious discussion.


(This post was edited by Andy9o8 on Oct 6, 2011, 12:35 PM)


Trae  (Student)

Oct 8, 2011, 4:13 PM
Post #14 of 23 (1019 views)
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Re: [HaroldBoyles] AAD vs. Actually learning to be safer.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it a is a fair point you are raising.
A dilemma?... probably not.

On the one hand having an AAD can make you safer if it works when required.
On the other hand having one may blinker you to some important safety lessons...eg you might not be quite as fast on your EP's cause you were not so thorough in your training as you would have been if you had no AAD..?
Can you really act like it aint there?

mainselling point for me?
..the versatile little gadget tries to save you from other peoples mistakes as well.


airtwardo  (D License)

Oct 8, 2011, 8:26 PM
Post #15 of 23 (986 views)
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Re: [HaroldBoyles] AAD vs. Actually learning to be safer.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Flawed logic because...stupid is as stupid does.

You strive to be safe because that's how you continue living.

I've never had an AAD and I did plenty of pushing the limits regarding stupid shit, it wasn't until I burred a lotta friends doin' the same stupid stuff that I was doing but weren't as lucky as me, that I got smarter.

Understand something...you can do EVERYTHING right in this sport and STILL die. Having an automatic opener may lower the odds of that happening, but there is still the very real possibility.

There are no safety nets, no do-overs...all an AAD does is give you a possible chance of making through the last ditch, where you had no business being in the first place under any circumstances.

If I were King...all AAD saves would be rewarded with a 30 day sit down for re-training and some soulful reflection in regard to whether the sport is how you should be spending your free time.

If you get to 750' (still conscious) with nothing out...recklessness isn't your problem~Ineptitude is, and it WILL eventually catch up to ya and go around the opener.


airborne47  (A 43475)

Oct 9, 2011, 6:09 AM
Post #16 of 23 (923 views)
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Re: [HaroldBoyles] AAD vs. Actually learning to be safer.... [In reply to] Can't Post

personally having watched an experienced jumper go in during a demo in front of thousands to include his wife and kids. And seeing an incident report of a lady being knocked unconcious during an emergency exit and saved by her aad. I can think of no logical reason to jump without one IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT! I jumped without at first because of finances. (This was well after watching the guy go in.) And will not hesitate to jump without one now. But do have one as i can afford it. However I DO NOT trust it to save my life! But realize it just might give me a chance if the worst should happen. (no pull on my part for whatever reason) And beliefe a chance of saving my life to be worth every penny!


waveoff5500  (D 32087)

Oct 9, 2011, 9:27 PM
Post #17 of 23 (878 views)
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Re: [zen_mtn_climber] AAD vs. Actually learning to be safer.... [In reply to] Can't Post

not ridiculous at all? anyone who is serious about learning/has any desire to be safe would take the right steps to be safe. like wearing a helmet. once youve been around the block in a sport like bmx or skydiving for that matter, you wont feel as safe as you would with a helmet or other pads, and therefore will not help you improve as much. an AAD and a helmet are two different things as far as im concerned. an AAD is a last chance device that may help you live when everything goes to shit. a helmet is a daily necessity in a sport like BMX. ill bet a whole bunch of money, the op will change his tone when he gets a concussion (or worse) when he isnt wearing a helmet and being "safer" its a joke so ill treat it like one


erdnarob  (D 364)

Oct 18, 2011, 11:14 AM
Post #18 of 23 (754 views)
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Re: [HaroldBoyles] AAD vs. Actually learning to be safer.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Wearing an AAD shouldn't be a reason to be less careful or to relax your awareness. However I think it can be the case for some jumpers. An AAD is a backup device, you switch it on and forget you have one just like a spare tire or a car safety bag shouldn't make you a less careful driver.


zen_mtn_climber  (B 35734)

Oct 18, 2011, 12:50 PM
Post #19 of 23 (724 views)
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Re: [waveoff5500] AAD vs. Actually learning to be safer.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Exactly, except that its a fine line between 'feeling safe enough' so that you improve vs. feeling so safe that you try something stupid without the proper skill set.

My comment was that its not ridiculous at all to question whether risk homeostasis applies here. For many people, the "safety" gear, be it a helmet or AAD or padding (depending on the sport) gives some people a false sense of security or confidence and they attempt to do things in the sport that they really aren't prepared yet to do.

Here in Tahoe saw it all the time with my kid and his friends skiing. They slap on a helmet and now think they're safe to try any number of spins off a jump or back flip or huck off a huge cliff b/c their helmet will protect them. Can't count the number of kids I've known (son not included knock on wood) who've gotten concussions wearing helmets. Would they have tried the same things without a helmet . . maybe, maybe not.

So smart to use safety gear . . yep, totally agree with you. Ridiculous to question whether said gear might embolden someone to take risk they otherwise might not . . don't think its ridiculous at all. And I too would bet a bunch of money that a nasty concussion would change the OP's tone, helmet or no helmet. In the end, it really should be a building the required skills.

Cheers,
ZMC

PS: How ironic that your sig line is a play on the famous G.N.A.R quote, which is a whole crowd devoted to pushing the risk envelope


Decodiver  (D License)

Oct 18, 2011, 2:00 PM
Post #20 of 23 (688 views)
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Re: [HaroldBoyles] AAD vs. Actually learning to be safer.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I jump where I have to use an AAD, that said I would still use one even if I didn't have to. Too many possibilities of collision or foot in the face on plane emergency evac or some ass (or even me) fucking up and colliding and whilst for me I also know that at best it will only cut the loop then I'm in the realms of a PC hesitation and if that happens I'm smoke. But if it doesn't then I may just survive.

I owe that to my wife, my 2 young girls and my elderly mother and friends to give myself that last throw of the dice. It doesn't change the way I skydive one iota, just maybe might save my life one day.......


craigbey  (C 31991)

Oct 18, 2011, 2:39 PM
Post #21 of 23 (669 views)
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Re: [Decodiver] AAD vs. Actually learning to be safer.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It doesn't change the way I skydive one iota

Some people think that when you use these safety devices, you will likely take more risks or engage in riskier behavior.

(This post was edited by craigbey on Oct 18, 2011, 2:43 PM)


waveoff5500  (D 32087)

Oct 18, 2011, 3:42 PM
Post #22 of 23 (644 views)
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Re: [zen_mtn_climber] AAD vs. Actually learning to be safer.... [In reply to] Can't Post

i agree with that now that you reworded it. ive just seen a lot of people get wrecked from BMX (ive been riding for about 10 years) and most of those people had the same attitude as the OP haha. as for my sig, i love gnar and am fully for pushing the envelope! but whats wrong with wearing pads while doing that Wink


Decodiver  (D License)

Oct 18, 2011, 4:26 PM
Post #23 of 23 (632 views)
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Re: [craigbey] AAD vs. Actually learning to be safer.... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
It doesn't change the way I skydive one iota

Some people think that when you use these safety devices, you will likely take more risks or engage in riskier behavior.

I choose my skydives and the people I skydive with without a thought for my AAD. if the dive seems risky or the people are fuckheads then I decline....I'm the first line of defence for myself......as I said the AAD is there as a last roll of the dice but in no way will I take the risk of saying I'll do something on the edge 'cos i got an AAD. Hell my reserve is an Optimum 126 that I load at 1.57:1 not sure I'd survive an unconscious landing under that anyway........but I hear ya....the world's full of people who think an AAD will open their reserve when all it is designed to do is cut the reserve closing loop everything after that is just luck in my opinion..........


(This post was edited by Decodiver on Oct 18, 2011, 4:27 PM)



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