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Front riser turns for final = softer landing

 

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shah269  (A 59581)

Sep 20, 2011, 1:56 PM
Post #1 of 76 (3639 views)
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Front riser turns for final = softer landing Can't Post

I would ask my instructors but they were all busy.
Here is my situation, on my standard left hand turn final I've noticed that on my Triathlon that if I make conservative front riser turns I build up a bit of speed which greatly helps me with my landings.
I achieve significantly stronger flare and much softer landings.

Again standard left hand turns on final and conservative front riser turns.
My question, does this help or hinder my ability to deal with adverse conditions?

The reason I ask that due to my low number of jumps I'm not 100% but it "feels" as if I'm experiencing significantly less turbulent "bump" on final. My thinking is that sing I have gained speed, kinetic energy, not only do I have more energy to divert into the flare but also that the cells are effectively more pressurized.
If this is so I would like to continue this method of setting up my landings. But just wasn't 100% sure if it was acceptable for a person with a low number of jumps to utilize their fronts for making turns. Thank you.


Rigless

Sep 20, 2011, 2:11 PM
Post #2 of 76 (3564 views)
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Re: [shah269] Front riser turns for final = softer landing [In reply to] Can't Post

At this rate you should be doing 360's! This will allow you to build even more speed leading to whoopy fasty landings with a complete stop at the end, pillow soft!

Goodluck! Sly


shah269  (A 59581)

Sep 20, 2011, 2:13 PM
Post #3 of 76 (3560 views)
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Re: [Rigless] Front riser turns for final = softer landing [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll stick with 90's for now Wink
Can you even swoop a chunky 7 cell?


Electronaut  (C 38872)

Sep 20, 2011, 2:33 PM
Post #4 of 76 (3541 views)
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Re: [shah269] Front riser turns for final = softer landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Supposedly Scott Miller swooped a Navigator in competition, not a 7 cell, but...


Rigless

Sep 20, 2011, 2:46 PM
Post #5 of 76 (3528 views)
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Re: [shah269] Front riser turns for final = softer landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Can you even swoop a chunky 7 cell?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3PElZVM9oo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUvCsJTVbG8

Don't bust your tib-fib Laugh


DaVinciflies

Sep 20, 2011, 3:26 PM
Post #6 of 76 (3500 views)
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Re: [shah269] Front riser turns for final = softer landing [In reply to] Can't Post

What altitude are you making your turn to final at?


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Sep 20, 2011, 3:31 PM
Post #7 of 76 (3485 views)
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Re: [shah269] Front riser turns for final = softer landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I would ask my instructors but they were all busy.
Here is my situation, on my standard left hand turn final I've noticed that on my Triathlon that if I make conservative front riser turns I build up a bit of speed which greatly helps me with my landings.
I achieve significantly stronger flare and much softer landings.

Again standard left hand turns on final and conservative front riser turns.
My question, does this help or hinder my ability to deal with adverse conditions?

The reason I ask that due to my low number of jumps I'm not 100% but it "feels" as if I'm experiencing significantly less turbulent "bump" on final. My thinking is that sing I have gained speed, kinetic energy, not only do I have more energy to divert into the flare but also that the cells are effectively more pressurized.
If this is so I would like to continue this method of setting up my landings. But just wasn't 100% sure if it was acceptable for a person with a low number of jumps to utilize their fronts for making turns. Thank you.

Skippy, you are headed for the incidents forum.

There is no such thing as a "conservative front riser turn". A front riser turn of any kind is by definition NOT conservative.

Your lack of understanding is epic and your continued experimentation during the most dangerous portion of your skydiving career is about to catch up with you.

Beyond that, you are horribly uneducated on what makes your canopy do what it does, and that will get you hurt, probably sooner than later.

Have you attended any canopy training courses? Probably not or you would know your questions aren't connected to the science of flight. Rather than experiment on your own and end up in the hospital or the big ol' data pile that is our canopy fuck-up fatality drawer, I suggest you stay your grasshopper ass on straight in approaches and go get some training.

You can blow all the wannabe intelligent questions up our asses that you want, but sounding like a brainiac conservative to yourself doesn't make you a bit safer than anyone else that overloads their barely-basic skill set.

Or just do what you want. You'll be yet another great example for the noobs that actually listen to advice.

BTW, does your DZO not care that he has a noob doing stupid shit?


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Sep 20, 2011, 3:33 PM
Post #8 of 76 (3488 views)
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Re: [DaVinciflies] Front riser turns for final = softer landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What altitude are you making your turn to final at?

For shit sake, don't encourage this guy by taking his silly ass seriously.

This clown is either a troll (read the first sentence of his post), or a crash in progress.


jhh166  (B License)

Sep 20, 2011, 3:38 PM
Post #9 of 76 (3484 views)
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Re: [shah269] Front riser turns for final = softer landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The reason I ask that due to my low number of jumps I'm not 100% but it "feels" as if I'm experiencing significantly less turbulent "bump" on final. My thinking is that sing I have gained speed, kinetic energy, not only do I have more energy to divert into the flare but also that the cells are effectively more pressurized.

I seen in one of your posts a few weeks back that you read "The Parachute and It's Pilot" multiple times. Did you skip chapter three? If I recall it is titled - Flying In Turbulence. (im not knocking you, just asking)

Brian stated several times in the chapter to fly the canopy at full speed in turbulence. He mentioned other actions you can take as well if the canopy comes out of the "window," but made it very clear that speed is a good thing in turbulence. One reason was for the increase in pressure and the other reason - more obvious, to fly through it quicker.

ETA: I was not commenting on the whole front riser turn. Just speed and turbulance


(This post was edited by jhh166 on Sep 20, 2011, 3:41 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 20, 2011, 3:59 PM
Post #10 of 76 (3463 views)
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Re: [DaVinciflies] Front riser turns for final = softer landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What altitude are you making your turn to final at?
You're still using altitude to determine turning points?


pchapman  (D 1014)

Sep 20, 2011, 4:01 PM
Post #11 of 76 (3462 views)
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Re: [shah269] Front riser turns for final = softer landing [In reply to] Can't Post

All that sounds great Shah - and I'm being serious, not facetious.

A nice easy front riser 90 is a good way to get into learning accelerated landings. It is just a small turn, the landing area stays visible the whole time, and it fits into a standard pattern.

Of course there are no guarantees that you won't hurt yourself, and it feels like some people would have a jumper make a thousand jumps on a canopy before being allowed to dare to ask about swooping.

There's more resistance to turbulence in accelerated flight, and more energy for a nice flare. More speed, more flare power.

The resistance to turbulence isn't so much about higher cell pressure, but that the change in angle of attack due to a given random gust will be smaller if one is at higher speed.

One caution is that a sudden application of front riser will decrease resistance to turbulence just at that moment where angle of attack is suddenly lowered. So a smooth gentle initiation is important if there's any concern over turbulence.

Also make sure your maneuvering fits in with whatever pattern rules they have where you are landing.


DaVinciflies

Sep 20, 2011, 4:03 PM
Post #12 of 76 (3458 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Front riser turns for final = softer landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
For shit sake, don't encourage this guy by taking his silly ass seriously.

This clown is either a troll (read the first sentence of his post), or a crash in progress.

Thanks for the advice, Chief.

The last thing I was going to do was encourage him. I was going to wait for his answer and then present some information to him.

If, as I suspect, he is making his "conservative 90" at 200-300' on a lightly loaded Triathlon, then his canopy has probably gone through several flight cycles and any effect on landing is just in his head.

If he is hooking it low enough to have an effect, then I was going to tell him that he is effectively doing an HP landing and that he needs to stop doing it immediately and start talking to instructors before experimenting.

It seems that the technique of talking to someone before explaining the reality of the situation is not a skill you have developed yet. Instead you seem to prefer the "you're an idiot looking for a place to die" approach. You have quite a bit to learn about effectively influencing others.


DaVinciflies

Sep 20, 2011, 4:05 PM
Post #13 of 76 (3456 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Front riser turns for final = softer landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
What altitude are you making your turn to final at?
You're still using altitude to determine turning points?

Yes, I am. Along with canopy course instructors and pro-swoopers, but that was not the intent of my question (see reply above).

Edited for clarity: The above does not mean "fly along until you hit x feet then turn". The turns are made at the same altitude, but they vary in their position over the ground according to the conditions.


(This post was edited by DaVinciflies on Sep 20, 2011, 4:07 PM)


BoogeyMan

Sep 20, 2011, 4:11 PM
Post #14 of 76 (3444 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Front riser turns for final = softer landing [In reply to] Can't Post

+1.......


"Skippy, you are headed for the incidents forum.
There is no such thing as a "conservative front riser turn". A front riser turn of any kind is by definition NOT conservative. "


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 20, 2011, 4:21 PM
Post #15 of 76 (3434 views)
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Re: [shah269] Front riser turns for final = softer landing [In reply to] Can't Post

>My question, does this help or hinder my ability to deal with adverse conditions?

Hinders them. Pulling down on a riser in a turn increases your speed and distorts your canopy. It becomes more vulnerable to turbulence and you have less time to react to problems.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Sep 20, 2011, 4:24 PM
Post #16 of 76 (3429 views)
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Re: [DaVinciflies] Front riser turns for final = softer landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
For shit sake, don't encourage this guy by taking his silly ass seriously.

This clown is either a troll (read the first sentence of his post), or a crash in progress.

Thanks for the advice, Chief.

The last thing I was going to do was encourage him. I was going to wait for his answer and then present some information to him.

If, as I suspect, he is making his "conservative 90" at 200-300' on a lightly loaded Triathlon, then his canopy has probably gone through several flight cycles and any effect on landing is just in his head.

If he is hooking it low enough to have an effect, then I was going to tell him that he is effectively doing an HP landing and that he needs to stop doing it immediately and start talking to instructors before experimenting.

It seems that the technique of talking to someone before explaining the reality of the situation is not a skill you have developed yet. Instead you seem to prefer the "you're an idiot looking for a place to die" approach. You have quite a bit to learn about effectively influencing others.

Actually I came to my conclusion after watching his posts carefully. This is another guy who is either trolling - after all, he keeps asking his questions here because his "instructors are too busy" - or he's not a troll and asks questions here because he knows what those "busy" instructors would say and he doesn't want to hear the answers.

If dude-cicle is for real, my bigger and more important question is who are the DZO, S&TA, DZ Manager, and Chief Instructor that are allowing his dangerous behavior? Have they already written him off as another "won't take advice" type like the guy that bought the pond just last week at the Nationals???

As for effectively influencing others, I have been doing just that for years. Ask around and I think that's the opinion you will hear most. Thousands of safe students-turned safe skydivers over more than 2 decades can't be wrong.Wink And quite frankly, I and others here have had it up to our old arthritic asses with people that poo-poo advice after asking for it. That shit is getting old, so maybe a harsher tone is in order for them.

Don't mistake a bit of direct and descriptive talk with a failure to be effective. I save this type of talk for the forums. It drives the point home and spurs thought - exactly what these forums are for.

I believe a thicker skin makes for a more open-minded - and therefore safer - skydiver. Just because you take a softer approach doesn't make it any more effective at the end of our accident-ridden days.


DaVinciflies

Sep 20, 2011, 4:31 PM
Post #17 of 76 (3421 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Front riser turns for final = softer landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I believe a thicker skin makes for a more open-minded - and therefore safer - skydiver. Just because you take a softer approach doesn't make it any more effective at the end of our accident-ridden days.

Well, he has had both approaches now. Let's hope one of us gets through to him.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 20, 2011, 4:43 PM
Post #18 of 76 (3405 views)
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Re: [jhh166] Front riser turns for final = softer landing [In reply to] Can't Post

>Brian stated several times in the chapter to fly the canopy at full speed in turbulence.

Right.

>One reason was for the increase in pressure and the other reason - more obvious, to
>fly through it quicker.

1) You may have misread that. Full speed is full flight. It is NOT front riser.

2) If you floor your car to get over a speedbump, does it shake you up less because you get through the rough part faster? If you go as fast as you can in a boat to deal with rough seas, does it help by cutting through the waves faster? If you experience turbulence in an aircraft, do you speed up to prevent damage to the airframe?

In general, no; speed makes turbulence worse.


hokierower  (B 36150)

Sep 20, 2011, 5:04 PM
Post #19 of 76 (3387 views)
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Re: [billvon] Front riser turns for final = softer landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't know why you need to do a diving turn to make your landings softer. I fly a Spectre (another bulky 7-cell according to you) and can tip-toe the landings with a simple straight-in approach in steady winds from 0-20mph. Anything over that and I won't be jumping.

Additionally, if your brake lines aren't long enough you're literally folding your canopy in half when you use a front riser. Call me crazy, but a deformed wing doesn't fly as designed which is a bad thing so close to the ground, especially in turbulence. Maybe you should learn to fly your canopy a wee bit better rather than relying on diving to gain speed. This is almost as ridiculous a question as your AAD thread.


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Sep 20, 2011, 5:17 PM
Post #20 of 76 (3373 views)
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Re: [shah269] Front riser turns for final = softer landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I would ask my instructors but they were all busy.
Here is my situation, on my standard left hand turn final I've noticed that on my Triathlon that if I make conservative front riser turns I build up a bit of speed which greatly helps me with my landings.
I achieve significantly stronger flare and much softer landings.

With a competent pilot under a modern canopy you can get comfortable flares starting at half brakes.

More speed means a given control deflection will have a more significant effect but there's nothing stopping you from applying more toggle faster when you're starting with less air speed.

Quote:
Again standard left hand turns on final and conservative front riser turns.
My question, does this help or hinder my ability to deal with adverse conditions?

Hinder. If you screw up things will be happening faster and you'll have a lot more kinetic energy to break things.


(This post was edited by DrewEckhardt on Sep 20, 2011, 7:31 PM)


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Sep 20, 2011, 5:41 PM
Post #21 of 76 (3347 views)
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Re: [DrewEckhardt] Front riser turns for final = softer landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I would ask my instructors but they were all busy.
Here is my situation, on my standard left hand turn final I've noticed that on my Triathlon that if I make conservative front riser turns I build up a bit of speed which greatly helps me with my landings.
I achieve significantly stronger flare and much softer landings.

With a competent pilot under a modern canopy you can get comfortable flares starting at half brakes.

More speed means a given control deflection will have a more significant effect but there's nothing stopping your from applying more toggle faster when you're starting with less air speed.

Quote:
Again standard left hand turns on final and conservative front riser turns.
My question, does this help or hinder my ability to deal with adverse conditions?

Hinder. If you screw up things will be happening faster and you'll have a lot more kinetic energy to break things.

Funny thing about kinetic energy. It's there even when you don't know what to do with it.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Sep 20, 2011, 6:11 PM
Post #22 of 76 (3322 views)
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Re: [shah269] Front riser turns for final = softer landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
My thinking is that sing I have gained speed, kinetic energy, not only do I have more energy to divert into the flare but also that the cells are effectively more pressurized

Look at it another way - does your thinking tell you that a jumper who has previously hurt themselves landing, has expressed severe misgivings about landings after the injury, and never really got 'the hang' of regular landings really need to be going faster near the ground?

Let's remember that the Triathalon was a very popular canopy, in production for many years and the larger sizes served as the first canopy for many, many new jumpers. Would those things be possible if the canopy couldn't flare well out of full flight?

If there's a problem with your flare on a straight-in landing, you need to (in order) -

1. Verify that your brake lines are properly adjusted. Do a search and you'll find the procedure for determining the stall point has been posted many times. Also, download the trim chart for your Tri, and get with a rigger to verify the trim.

-if that doesn't solve your problem-

2. Get one on one canopy coaching, focused mainly on pattern work and your flare, to include video and debriefing of every jump. Coaches are available when you're paying, if you wait around for someone to have time to work with you for free, you'll get what you pay for. Spend some money, and get some focused, dedicated time from a qualified instructor. Ask the DZO or S&TA who you should talk to.

-if that doesn't solve your problem

3. Get the above mentioned canopy coach to jump your canopy and make sure it's not a lemon. Being that it's a used canopy, the chances are slim, but have the guy put a jump on it to evaluate it's conditon.

Note that nowhere in the above is the idea of goign faster.

You're into bikes, right? Here's the motorcycling equivilant of your question about canopy flight -

"I'm having trouble figuring out the braking points for a couple corners on the track. What if I just blow through them hard on the front brake and back the bike into the corner? Seems like it would be easier because I could brake closer to the corner, and it's easier to judge where to brake from closer in, right?"

You realize the answer is 'no'. The real answer is to actually ride slower so you have more time to figure out where to brake. Same thing with your canopy. You need to be able to do things at full flight, the regular way, before you can get 'fancy' with it and add speed to the equation.

How quickly you forget the pain of your accident, the missed jumps, the missed life, the missed mobility. Get those crutches back out and use them for a couple hours and tell me again that you think you need to go faster on landing.


jhh166  (B License)

Sep 20, 2011, 6:13 PM
Post #23 of 76 (3315 views)
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Re: [billvon] Front riser turns for final = softer landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Brian stated several times in the chapter to fly the canopy at full speed in turbulence.

Right.

>One reason was for the increase in pressure and the other reason - more obvious, to
>fly through it quicker.

1) You may have misread that. Full speed is full flight. It is NOT front riser.

2) If you floor your car to get over a speedbump, does it shake you up less because you get through the rough part faster? If you go as fast as you can in a boat to deal with rough seas, does it help by cutting through the waves faster? If you experience turbulence in an aircraft, do you speed up to prevent damage to the airframe?

In general, no; speed makes turbulence worse.

Thank you for clarifying.


petejones45  (C License)

Sep 20, 2011, 6:15 PM
Post #24 of 76 (3314 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Front riser turns for final = softer landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
What altitude are you making your turn to final at?

For shit sake, don't encourage this guy by taking his silly ass seriously.

This clown is either a troll (read the first sentence of his post), or a crash in progress.

posting PA's does nothing to answer the question


pchapman  (D 1014)

Sep 20, 2011, 6:26 PM
Post #25 of 76 (3306 views)
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Re: [DrewEckhardt] Front riser turns for final = softer landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
With a competent pilot under a modern canopy you can get comfortable flares starting at half brakes.

More speed means a given control deflection will have a more significant effect but there's nothing stopping your from applying more toggle faster when you're starting with less air speed.

I'd add more to that:

That's highlighting the point that starting with two different situations, the best possible outcome may be the same, a perfectly soft, slow landing. What changes is how easy it is to achieve that soft landing -- whether there is plenty of time during the flare to adjust the flare, or whether one has to flare hard and fast and be spot-on to get that soft landing.

Even if it is true that one can land OK from partial brakes on many canopies, it sure is a heck of a lot easier to land starting with more speed.

Over the years I bet a bunch of us have seen situations like this: A newbie having trouble flaring the used Sabre 1 they bought. The first thing we notice is that their spectra brake lines have shrunk and in "full flight" they are actually pulling a few inches of brake.

Give them new brake lines and their flares suddenly get a whole lot better. It isn't that a good pilot couldn't flare the canopy the old way, but it sure is easier with the extra speed to start with.


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