Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
What do you do??

 

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Poll: What do you do??
Cutaway, pull reserve 24 / 23%
Pull reserve, do a canopy transfer 52 / 50%
Try to land what you got 3 / 3%
Other 25 / 24%
104 total votes
 
-ftp-

Sep 16, 2011, 7:33 AM
Post #1 of 29 (3169 views)
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What do you do?? Can't Post

You find yourself after unbeknownst to you, you were knocked unconcious and are under a damaged/malfuctioning main at 800'. (pick an option, ripped topskin, lineover, broken lines, slow spinner, something that causes it not to be fully controllable, but not a streamer) I know its vague and depends on the mal/damage, but still, what do you do?


(This post was edited by -ftp- on Sep 16, 2011, 7:34 AM)


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Sep 16, 2011, 7:35 AM
Post #2 of 29 (3134 views)
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Re: [-ftp-] What do you do?? [In reply to] Can't Post

At that altitude? Get more fabric over my head. (And I voted "other" in your poll because though I'm saying I'd pull the reserve, a canopy transfer is not a given).


(This post was edited by NWFlyer on Sep 16, 2011, 7:35 AM)


-ftp-

Sep 16, 2011, 7:40 AM
Post #3 of 29 (3124 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] What do you do?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
At that altitude? Get more fabric over my head. (And I voted "other" in your poll because though I'm saying I'd pull the reserve, a canopy transfer is not a given).

Yes I meant to put "pull reserve, deal with 2 out potential" but I couldnt edit the poll, sorry bout that.


JohnRich  (D License)

Sep 16, 2011, 7:40 AM
Post #4 of 29 (3122 views)
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Re: [-ftp-] What do you do?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Could be any of these choices:
Pull reserve, do a canopy transfer
Try to land what you got
Other
Depending upon what the particular situation is. A line over? May be able to cut the line with a hook knife. Tear in the fabric? How bad? May be able to land it. Broken lines? Which ones and how many? May be able to land it.

The only option that is NOT in play at that altitude is a cut-away. Well, maybe, if you have a RSL or Skyhook, but that's gonna be a high pucker factor. The main would have to be in a clearly unsurvivable condition to go for that.

For a slow speed malfunction, a canopy transfer is unlikely, as the reserve is not likely to have time to deploy from the low airspeed drag in time to give you the chance to switch over to it. Heck, it might even just stay in the deployment bag. And if it does that, then you're back to dealing with the problem on your main again, where you started out in the first place.

So I would say that "Try and land what you got" is your best choice. And continue to try and improve the situation.


(This post was edited by JohnRich on Sep 16, 2011, 7:49 AM)


Rdutch  (D 24618)

Sep 16, 2011, 8:06 AM
Post #5 of 29 (3093 views)
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Re: [-ftp-] What do you do?? [In reply to] Can't Post

wasnt unconcious, but I cutaway at close to 800 ft no problem with my skyhook. I had an RDS malfunction, and one of the rings hung up on my 79, closing the front cells. to keep it flying straight I had to pull the other toggle all the way down. I was shaking my front riser and it was working its way down until my alarm went off to start my turn to land. I cutaway and it worked fine. Also when we did test drops for reserves they were done at about 300ft. These were with steel not people. But as an AFF instructor Im supposed to say under 1000ft no cutaways, pull your reserve and add material. So based on your gear its different. Im not adding a 106 reserve to a 79 main, Unless IM really low.


(This post was edited by Rdutch on Sep 16, 2011, 8:07 AM)


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Sep 16, 2011, 12:58 PM
Post #6 of 29 (2950 views)
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Re: [Rdutch] What do you do?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I was shaking my front riser and it was working its way down until my alarm went off to start my turn to land.

If you found yourself at 800 feet still working a malfunction I would say you fucked up big time.

In reply to:
Also when we did test drops for reserves they were done at about 300ft.

Testing is done with a minimum of 60 KEAS. Bid difference from a drop in static position at 300 feet.

Sparky


Rdutch  (D 24618)

Sep 16, 2011, 1:25 PM
Post #7 of 29 (2942 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] What do you do?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Actually it happened quite fast, deploy at 2500 ft, even with 3 grommets it took a while to open, and with a 79 you loose altitude fast. But yeah I definitely thought about it after.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 16, 2011, 1:40 PM
Post #8 of 29 (2937 views)
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Re: [-ftp-] What do you do?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Choose the softest, cheapest thing under me and aim for it. If I just "came to" at 800 feet I am not going to be in a state of mind (or likely even have the strength) to be able to do a canopy transfer.


VideoFly  (D 25621)

Sep 17, 2011, 8:45 AM
Post #9 of 29 (2805 views)
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Re: [billvon] What do you do?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I was knocked out once while videoing an unexpected tandem exit (front flip toward the tail of the plane with my hand holding the tandem rig at arms length and the TIs heals cracking me on the head). Upon realizing I was going in and out of consciousness, at about 12,000 feet, I deployed my main in case I went back out. Once under canopy, it took a while to get my act together. Upon gaining consciousness low, clear thought may very well be elusive. Id probably shoot for more fabric out and deploy my reserve in addition to keeping my main, even though the reserve may not fully deploy.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 17, 2011, 5:48 PM
Post #10 of 29 (2714 views)
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Re: [-ftp-] What do you do?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Experienced:
800 ft, reduced descent rate, good enough to get a reserve out.
I'd cut and deploy.
Terminal? Transfer.

Student:
Deploy reserve.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Sep 20, 2011, 8:54 AM
Post #11 of 29 (2508 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] What do you do?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Terminal? Transfer.

??? - Lost me here. How do you find yourself falling terminal at 800ft, then execute a transfer? - ???


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 20, 2011, 4:02 PM
Post #12 of 29 (2469 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] What do you do?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you know what a canopy transfer is?
Tell us, yes?


Scrumpot  (D License)

Sep 20, 2011, 4:16 PM
Post #13 of 29 (2465 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] What do you do?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes - and by definition, they are not done at terminal velocity, Andy. Please - tell me what I am missing here? I am not being coy - maybe I'm dense (wouldn't be the 1st time), I'd legitimately like to know how you would do a canopy transfer (or would even want to try) at terminal velocity?

What am I missing here?


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 20, 2011, 8:35 PM
Post #14 of 29 (2435 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] What do you do?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Why not?
Tell me. I'm not opposed to learning about something I may not have thought of....

Who defined a transfer as a low-speed function?
The "how" is no different than the low-speed.
What's the problem with high-speed?

It sounds like you really have reasons to question....what reasons against a high-speed transfer do you have?


potatoman  (Student)

Sep 21, 2011, 1:33 AM
Post #15 of 29 (2407 views)
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Re: [-ftp-] What do you do?? [In reply to] Can't Post

At 800Ft, even though fairly stationary, I would chop. 300Ft for opening. 500Ft for excelleration. I would surely be past 60Knots by then.

But then, depending on how "awake" I am. If dizzy, probably just reserve pul and figure out from there.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Sep 21, 2011, 6:54 AM
Post #16 of 29 (2349 views)
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Re: [potatoman] What do you do?? [In reply to] Can't Post

It's supposed to be 300ft from a cutaway. The standard is 3 seconds, or if you can't meet that because of low speed (cutaway) you get to use 300' (TSO C23d and it may go up for reserves labeled for greater than 250lbs. FOUR seconds for twisted lines. And 3 or 4 SECONDS (no feet alternative) for TSO c23b and c. So it SHOULD be open in 4 seconds, maybe 300' depending on TSO. But that was limited drops with limited sizes and combinations and with the canopy maybe not in the harness your using and the harness maybe not with the canopy your using. And maybe not your size combination. So counting on 300' is risky.

And I've seen very experience jumpers have to search for their reserve ripcord after a cutaway because of the harness shifting. With RSL or MARD better chance.

There is no right answer of course. Except keep fighting until the blood fills your goggles. If that means more fabric great. For something that may not be/is not survivable that's always a reasonable choice.

I watched a reserve come out at a point I thought was way too late to open sneak through a horseshoe malfunction and open. Of course that was a round reserve.Wink


Scrumpot  (D License)

Sep 21, 2011, 8:04 AM
Post #17 of 29 (2334 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] What do you do?? [In reply to] Can't Post

We must be misconstruing terms here between us, Andy - or again, I just plain simply misunderstood. To me, "terminal" = in freefall; i.e. ]nothing out.

Your reply was:
Quote:
Terminal? Transfer.

Which seems to me, to be an oxymoron. Mutually exclusive.

I guess my question, more appropriately phrased then, would be (and maybe what I can't quite conceptualize in relation to your answer to the OP) is: How do you get to "terminal" with your main already out?

Your main being out is the 1st most critical pre-requisite to being able to execute a canopy transfer in the 1st place, right? So, this is where you have lost me.

This is what I am now looking for clarification from you on. That (the quote) was your answer. I clearly don't understand it. So, before we move on to even further considerations (and definition interpretations) of "high-speed" versus "low-speed" - can you please further define then what your concept, or definition of "terminal" is maybe? Perhaps you did not mean to use the term "terminal"? Or maybe I am somehow misconstruing your intended meaning of it, and my definition of the term rather just (apparently has to) differs from yours.

I have no specific opposition to an experienced jumper executing a canopy transfer in say for instance - what could be termed a high-speed malfunction at 800ft AGL (example: your main gets suddenly torn literally in 1/2 by a swooper colliding completely through it from above) - in fact, in that instance I would probably recommend it!

How can a person be possibly at "terminal" though, at 800ft (the OP's premise/scenario) with their main already out? To me, "terminal" implies freefall - which then actually precludes a canopy transfer possibility in it's entirety - by definition.

So one last time, what am I missing here?


(This post was edited by Scrumpot on Sep 21, 2011, 8:04 AM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 21, 2011, 8:27 AM
Post #18 of 29 (2324 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] What do you do?? [In reply to] Can't Post

OK.
High speed/low speed = rate of descent

Line twists = Low speed
End cell closure = Low speed
Bag lock = high speed
PCIT = high speed

Personally, I teach high/low speed in my FJC.

Yes, a bag lock, and some other mals, will be at terminal or so near as to be negligible. I think that is what you were missing.

The original supposition was that the main was already out and we're experiencing a non-survivable descent rate, or at least one that will result in major injury.

At such a low altitude, one can consider a transfer simply because of the time it takes to cutaway first and then deploy the reserve. For a given amount of time, there will be a significant loss of altitude in a high-speed situation. So, the transfer makes sense in that getting the reserve out while you still have at least something affecting your rate of descent is an option.

Now, the kicker is when do you cut? Too late and an entanglement can happen. Too soon and you defeat the benefit of the transfer. The whole idea is to make maximum use of the altitude you have left.

Does that help?

Personally, I have not had to do a transfer. I have trained my self to do it if/when it becomes necessary but as yet, knock on wood, it hasn't happened to me and being an old fart, I'm doing everything I can to prevent the situation in the first place.

I'd like somebody that has had to do one to pipe in and share his/her experience. If they do, take note: every situation is different and the results they obtained my not be the result you obtain.


Does that help?

Caveat: I do NOT recommend this for students. Stick with your training, whatever that is.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Sep 21, 2011, 8:29 AM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 21, 2011, 8:36 AM
Post #19 of 29 (2318 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] What do you do?? [In reply to] Can't Post

One other thing..low speed mal at 800 ft.

IMHO, this is even worse.
Deploy the reserve and the reserve PC pops out but there may not be enough descent or forward drive to inflate the damn thing and enable it to pull anything out. So, now you have a reserve PC dangling underneath you...not good.

So here, IMO, a transfer is not a good idea. Go ahead and cut first, then deploy. Your rate of descent will increase to the point of inflating the reserve PC when it pops out and you get what you get after that.

At 800 ft, the likelihood of a decent reserve inflation is high probability. Not guaranteed but high nonetheless.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Sep 21, 2011, 8:37 AM)


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Sep 21, 2011, 9:02 AM
Post #20 of 29 (2295 views)
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Re: [councilman24] What do you do?? [In reply to] Can't Post

For drop tests it is 3 sec. or 300 feet. Most will go for the 3 sec. On breakaway tests you must have a functionally open canopy in 5 sec.

IMHO if you are going through 800 feet with a malfunction you are on the edge.

Sparky


Scrumpot  (D License)

Sep 21, 2011, 10:07 AM
Post #21 of 29 (2277 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] What do you do?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yes, a bag lock, and some other mals, will be at terminal or so near as to be negligible. I think that is what you were missing.

Agreed on your 1st sentence, but on the second one actually, I would not say that I was missing it. More so that still Andy, by definition - I'm afraid I do disagree with you. Not your thought process, but in with your answer, where/how you have applied your terminology.

Okay then, though - so that we are not "arguing", I guess that you could still say that between us, I did earlier "miss" it. But I just wouldn't have even considered it. At least as being called a "canopy transfer" in those scenarios anyway.

Feel free to correct me if you still feel my thinking with this is incorrect, but - in order to have a "canopy transfer", there (in my mind anyway) must 1st be at least a canopy there to transfer! In either of those examples, there isn't one there, to transfer - so that is where you lost me.

Once I typed my last response too however, I thought rather that you might instead come out with an example or supposition of say a swooper who right in the midst of executing his dive from 800 feet suddenly became whipped into into fast line-twists. In which case there - I could still possibly see it (a canopy transfer procedure applied) there too.

So we don't disagree - that a canopy transfer EP could be conceivably used in a high-speed situation.

Remember though, the OP's scenario and premise was set up as:
Quote:
(pick an option, ripped topskin, lineover, broken lines, slow spinner, something that causes it not to be fully controllable, but not a streamer)

So again, I just got lost and did not understand your response of:
Quote:
Terminal? transfer.

And did not think it was applicable, as again - to me "terminal" implies nothing out. That's where I got lost and "missed" your meaning.

Thanks for taking the time to further clarify. Cool

Blue Skies,
-Grant


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 21, 2011, 11:34 AM
Post #22 of 29 (2253 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] What do you do?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Grant,
OK, I get it now. Please forgive the old brain cell glitch.
Laugh

To me "terminal" simply means rate of descent and has nothing to do with anything being out of the container.

Some high-speed mals have no canopy over your head and yes, I agree, a transfer may not be applicable in those situations.

My original statement simply said, "High-speed @800 ft= transfer" and I only had in mind those with canopy out.

And yes, the OP examples, and his comment,"...but not a streamer" indicate low-speed mals with lots of nylon out.
I just thought I'd add my thoughts on high-speed mals.

The four mals I listed, were simply to highlight low-speed vs high-speed....not intended to specify anything other than that.

In the big scheme of things, yes, I would agree that in the case of some low-altitude, high-speed mals, a straight-up cut and deploy might work better. A bag lock would fit that scenario simply because of the timing factor of the reserve PC inflation and the cutaway. I'd hate to have the reserve PC inflate, rise up and get entangled with whatever is out before I could cutaway.

But then, OTOH, getting the reserve PC out and inflating before you lost too much altitude could be a life saver if you got the other stuff cutaway soon enough....especially so at low altitude.

How's that?

Oh...BTW, swooping? All bets are off. I'm no swooper and cannot, and will not offer, advice on handling that.
Wink


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Sep 21, 2011, 11:42 AM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 21, 2011, 11:40 AM
Post #23 of 29 (2245 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] What do you do?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
For drop tests it is 3 sec. or 300 feet. Most will go for the 3 sec. On breakaway tests you must have a functionally open canopy in 5 sec.

IMHO if you are going through 800 feet with a malfunction you are on the edge.

Sparky

I teach students:
If you are in an unsurvivable situation at 1000 ft, two things should immediately happen...
1- Deploy the reserve
2- Ask yourself a question - Why the hell am I at 1K ft and having a problem that I should have handled by decision altitude of 2.5K ft.

LaughLaugh


wildcard451  (D License)

Sep 21, 2011, 11:46 AM
Post #24 of 29 (2240 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] What do you do?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In that fuzzy few seconds of regaining consciousness at 800'....if you are having anything but a slow speed mal, you're likely going to be dead before you even realize where you are or what is going on.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 21, 2011, 4:16 PM
Post #25 of 29 (2182 views)
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Re: [wildcard451] What do you do?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In that fuzzy few seconds of regaining consciousness at 800'....if you are having anything but a slow speed mal, you're likely going to be dead before you even realize where you are or what is going on.
Yep...if you are "fuzzy" and just regaining consciousness.


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