Forums: Skydiving: Tandem Skydiving:
Tandem jump: Scenic ride or instructional flight? FAA may set precedent in LS trike cases

 


Calvin19  (D 29712)

Sep 15, 2011, 12:07 PM
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Tandem jump: Scenic ride or instructional flight? FAA may set precedent in LS trike cases Can't Post

This article is about weight shift trike crashes during the alleged illegal use of the aircraft for "rides" instead of the only legal commercial use; instruction flights. Just another thought-provoker on tandem factories.

in all reality, it's most likely never going to matter for skydiving, but this is an interesting FAA investigation.

I know a few Trike pilots that fly out of Dillingham. I have not talked to them in a few years. I wonder.

http://www.avweb.com/...Trikes_205370-1.html


(This post was edited by Calvin19 on Sep 15, 2011, 12:46 PM)


pchapman  (D 1014)

Sep 15, 2011, 12:43 PM
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Re: [Calvin19] Tandem jump: Scenic ride or instructional flight? FAA may set precedent in LS trike cases [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Fixing the link:
http://www.avweb.com/...Trikes_205370-1.html

The practice of offering rides as introductory instructional flights (as instruction is all that is allowed commercially) has been a long standing practice in the ultralight and now LSA world. Guess it just went too far, particularly when crashes drew attention.

Shouldn't matter for skydiving as you say but is an example of the student vs. ride issue in another air sport.


Calvin19  (D 29712)

Sep 15, 2011, 12:48 PM
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Re: [pchapman] Tandem jump: Scenic ride or instructional flight? FAA may set precedent in LS trike cases [In reply to] Can't Post

You're correct. (And I fixed the link). I remember taking rides when I was 6 years old in 1991 in a trike. As much as I hate the Light Sport regulation revolution, It is a great thing for the aviation world outside ultralights.


diablopilot  (D License)

Sep 15, 2011, 2:02 PM
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Re: [pchapman] Tandem jump: Scenic ride or instructional flight? FAA may set precedent in LS trike cases [In reply to] Can't Post

The FAA has already ruled on what they consider tandem skydiving to be. It's instruction:


From FAR 105.45
Quote:
(2) The person acting as parachutist in command:

(i) Has briefed the passenger parachutist before boarding the aircraft. The briefing must include the procedures to be used in case of an emergency with the aircraft or after exiting the aircraft, while preparing to exit and exiting the aircraft, freefall, operating the parachute after freefall, landing approach, and landing.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Sep 15, 2011, 2:10 PM
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Re: [diablopilot] Tandem jump: Scenic ride or instructional flight? FAA may set precedent in LS trike cases [In reply to] Can't Post

I wouldn't say it is "instruction" any more than being told on an airliner how to put on the life vest or buckle up is instruction on how to fly. And it does say "passenger parachutist".

Still, it is useful to see the FAR 105 quote for reference.


Calvin19  (D 29712)

Sep 15, 2011, 2:20 PM
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Re: [diablopilot] Tandem jump: Scenic ride or instructional flight? FAA may set precedent in LS trike cases [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The FAA has already ruled on what they consider tandem skydiving to be. It's instruction:


From FAR 105.45
Quote:
(2) The person acting as parachutist in command:

(i) Has briefed the passenger parachutist before boarding the aircraft. The briefing must include the procedures to be used in case of an emergency with the aircraft or after exiting the aircraft, while preparing to exit and exiting the aircraft, freefall, operating the parachute after freefall, landing approach, and landing.

True, However I am certain that the "student" passengers of the trikes were given the basic instructions on how to sit, buckle seat belts, don't touch control bar, don't touch this, etc. The FAA is investigating if this is enough to be considered "instruction", or if these trike ride "flight schools" are just giving scenic rides like they are advertising they are doing.

All of the advertisements I have seen for tandem skydiving look to me like a theme park ride.

(Let me repeat that I have little doubt that anything will change in the way the feds turn a blind eye to a lot of skydiving stuff, but it's nice to remember they are not always watching you)


diablopilot  (D License)

Sep 15, 2011, 5:02 PM
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Re: [pchapman] Tandem jump: Scenic ride or instructional flight? FAA may set precedent in LS trike cases [In reply to] Can't Post

Has briefed the passenger parachutist before boarding the aircraft. The briefing must include the procedures to be used in case of an emergency with the aircraft or after exiting the aircraft, while preparing to exit and exiting the aircraft, freefall, operating the parachute after freefall, landing approach, and landing.

I'd say that teaching someone about "operating the parachute after freefall, landing approach, and landing" is pretty well down the road of instruction.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Sep 15, 2011, 5:15 PM
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Re: [diablopilot] Tandem jump: Scenic ride or instructional flight? FAA may set precedent in LS trike cases [In reply to] Can't Post

It's all in the interpretation -- the FAA language could certainly be the basis of some good instruction -- as you perhaps prefer.

But when it talks about 'procedures to be used', it doesn't say that it has to be a description of the procedures the instructor would be using.

It can just as well be the procedures for the passenger:
"Hey you - shuffle with me to the door, put your hands on the harness, hips out, legs back, I'll tell you what to do under canopy, leave everything else to me." Voila, there's the briefing on procedures to be used throughout the entire dive. Slinging meat...


DBCOOPER  (D 24112)

Sep 16, 2011, 6:59 PM
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Re: [pchapman] Tandem jump: Scenic ride or instructional flight? FAA may set precedent in LS trike cases [In reply to] Can't Post

Bounce three tandems in one tourist state and I bet the feds get interested too.


DiverMike  (C 40024)

Sep 20, 2011, 10:27 AM
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Re: [Calvin19] Tandem jump: Scenic ride or instructional flight? FAA may set precedent in LS trike cases [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The person acting as parachutist in command . . .

In the other FARs when it refers to "Pilot in Command" it does so to differentiate between multiple pilots or a pilot and a student. The language implies that the other person is a "parachutist not in command", but still a parachutist or a student and not a passenger.



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