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Independent Wingsuit Coach Database

 

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Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Sep 13, 2011, 2:12 PM
Post #101 of 181 (1252 views)
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Re: [Zeemax] Independent Wingsuit Coach Database [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In response to plenty of positive feedback in PM and emails I have created a link to fill in so that I don't need to be the middle Wickey.

http://wickedwingsuits.com/coachsignup.php

The database will drive a map feature, much like the "find drop zone" feature on dz.com. My intent is to allow it to be a listing that has no true maintenance or policing to it, truly independent. That might not work but it is worth a try to start with. A feedback system may be incorporated in the future.

Sign up...or don't...your choice.

Simon

So essentially anyone can add themselves without any validation as to their claimed skills? What benefit is that?

Here is what I am thinking...maybe. I don't want to have to maintain the list really...aside from deleting obviously fake people from Bumtown, AL.....but I can delete quicker than the time it takes for these jokers to create a record....

Maybe a system that include Peer ratings. A thumb up or thumb down concept like Tivo but not editable like Linked In. It would take a real effort to group people together to vote someone significantly up or down...and it would be valid if done by peer's.

It won't happen in version 1...but that might be where it goes. I don't want the list to be managed by me but I could put in place a mechanism to have it somehow be self managed.

The payoff will of course be the IPO in a few years.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Sep 13, 2011, 2:27 PM
Post #102 of 181 (1237 views)
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Independent Wingsuit Coach Database [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

It won't happen in version 1...but that might be where it goes. I don't want the list to be managed by me but I could put in place a mechanism to have it somehow be self managed.

Wait...you don't know what "SEO" means, but you can put a mechanism in place to self-manage?
Your credibility fell off the train here.

How long til we see an article in Parachutist about "WW promotes safety and donates X to whatever through WS rentals and a database of "quality, peer-reviewed coaches?"
This smells so much like a non-profit that paid for an endless summer....


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Sep 13, 2011, 3:06 PM
Post #103 of 181 (1214 views)
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Re: [DSE] Independent Wingsuit Coach Database [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

It won't happen in version 1...but that might be where it goes. I don't want the list to be managed by me but I could put in place a mechanism to have it somehow be self managed.

Wait...you don't know what "SEO" means, but you can put a mechanism in place to self-manage?
Your credibility fell off the train here.

How long til we see an article in Parachutist about "WW promotes safety and donates X to whatever through WS rentals and a database of "quality, peer-reviewed coaches?"
This smells so much like a non-profit that paid for an endless summer....

Not really. Let's face it some of you just like to pick a fight. Database systems are my profession, Internet marketing is not. This reminds me of all the people that think I can fix their home PC because I am in "computers". It is quite a broad set of skills without even including the business side of computing.

Also, when I say I will put in place a mechanism I mean I will have an idea and I will get a developer to do it...don't read too much into the word "put".


normiss  (D 28356)

Sep 13, 2011, 6:01 PM
Post #104 of 181 (1174 views)
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Re: [Skwrl] Independent Wingsuit Coach Database [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think I know Simon or WW or whatever.
I'm just going by his website and his posts here....
He advertises as a purely TS shop, how are we supposed to not think he is associated with TS in ANY way???


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Sep 13, 2011, 6:22 PM
Post #105 of 181 (1168 views)
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Independent Wingsuit Coach Database [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Not really. Let's face it some of you just like to pick a .

I'm really, really sorry you see it this way, Simon. Couldn't be further from the truth. Like when you asked if you could reference/use my water training...I told you I'm all about safe training, learning new things, and helping others along the way and thanked you for the courtesy of asking and praised you stepping into additional training, right?

Teaching and learning is my passion; quality instruction is what I genuinely care about. Whether you like how I present myself or not, I believe you understand what drives me.
If you understand my motive, and recognize I don't stand to gain nor lose from your list nor your rental business, then what could possibly be my objection to an "independent database" of coaches?

Safety should always come first. Competence is a huge component of "safe."
I've already posted pix of incompetence; it's difficult to accept the standard you've embraced when it's incompetent and unsafe.

Do you disagree?


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Sep 13, 2011, 7:38 PM
Post #106 of 181 (1151 views)
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Re: [normiss] Independent Wingsuit Coach Database [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't think I know Simon or WW or whatever.
I'm just going by his website and his posts here....
He advertises as a purely TS shop, how are we supposed to not think he is associated with TS in ANY way???

We are 100% committed to TS Wingsuit products. Love them....love Tony...my wife loves Tony and my dog love Tony...but he doesn't love my dog...and we love supporting a product made in the USA. That's how to grow the economy folks, buy local.

So you can see my opinion confirms what the website says...proud to be Tony Suits. I can't see that we ever denied that, this thread was started as a discussion about finding wingsuit coaches.

We are not however aligned at all with the TS method of teaching wing suiting, mainly for 2 reasons:

1) Wicked Wingsuits rents suits, we do not provide training through our company. We would like to be able to refer customers to experienced wingsuiters but we would need a list or something......

2) TS doesn't actually have an official training method.


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Sep 13, 2011, 7:41 PM
Post #107 of 181 (1150 views)
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Re: [DSE] Independent Wingsuit Coach Database [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

Not really. Let's face it some of you just like to pick a .
Safety should always come first. Competence is a huge component of "safe."
I've already posted pix of incompetence; it's difficult to accept the standard you've embraced when it's incompetent and unsafe.

Do you disagree?

Boo and Hiss to your reply Spot. I never brought into question in my response or thread your commitment to training. I was defending your ding on me about creditability related to SEO and IT.

Of course I agree with your priorities. Check out our quote request form:

http://www.wickedwingsuits.com/quote.html

It's been there from the beginning: "I will have a KICK ASS time.......but be safe while doing it"


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Sep 13, 2011, 11:08 PM
Post #108 of 181 (1112 views)
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Independent Wingsuit Coach Database [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Boo and Hiss to your reply Spot. <snip>

Of course I agree with your priorities. Check out our quote request form:

http://www.wickedwingsiuts.com/quote.htm

It's been there from the beginning: "I will have a KICK ASS time.......but be safe while doing it"


I'm attempting to point out to you that newbies (in any discipline) don't know what they don't know while they're out trying to z'kick ass".

Move aside from wingsuiting.
~The guy that puts a GoPro on his head at 18 jumps is just "having a kick ass time." He doesn't realize he's being unsafe.

Boo and hiss??

~The dude that has 100 jumps and downsizes to a wingloading of 1.3 doesn't know he's being unsafe, just having a kick ass time.

Boo and hiss??

~The person who jumps up to do a flip on their A-license graduation skydive is just having a kick ass time. They don't realize jumping up towards the tail is unsafe.

Boo and hiss??

~The person that is so caught up in having a kick ass time, they don't check their navigation nor altitude and end up landing in trees or the river.

Boo and hiss??

~That drunk guy from Flock U who was twisting my just-out-of-surgery back and neck in your trailer down in Moab...he was just having a kick ass time, totally missed the potential for badness there. I'm grateful you talked him off me though.

Boo and hiss??

~The person that downwinds it in the middle of the load? He's just having a kick ass time, and doesn't realize he's being unsafe
(just watched this one occur a couple weeks ago, turned out to be a fatal "unsafe." The downwind guy didn't intend to kill someone else).


Boo and hiss??

~Lest we not forget the specific guy that didn't know how to stop his dive in time and placed his knee on the back of my neck, causing my lens and camera display to break off, breaking my molar teeth, and displacing my cochlea. I can't hear anymore, but 2.5K$ fixed up my tooth. I figure it was a 7k jump with medical, dental, camera travel costs thrown in. Haven't found a value for my hearing just yet. An apology vs a "Fuck You" from the Vertical Organizers would have gone a long way.

Boo and hiss??

~The dud that borrows his buddies logbook with 500 jumps and signs up for a USPA course. He's just having a kikk-ass life and doesn't know why the requirements are there.

Boo and hiss??

~The guy that rents a wingsuit for his first flight? He's having a kick ass time, but may not realize he's not being safe
either through his own actions, or the actions of a "coach" who has never been taught to teach and has never been evaluated in a wingsuit by anyone who knows what to look for when evaluating a potential coach. That's what an Examiner does for USPA. And why USPA has IRC's and IERC's.

The pix previously posted demonstrate how unevaluated/untrained "coaches" can set up very unsafe scenarios while "having a kick ass time."

Boo and hiss??

We'll just agree to disagree, I guess. I can't agree with facilitating equipment to unseen, un-interviewed newbies over the Internet. We've had multiple problems with rental suits here at our school. You knew this already.


Boo and hiss?? at anyone who thinks of safety first?

I can't agree to endorsing "coaches" that *no one* has "tested" for skills/knowledge, and these are the only points where I disagree with your effort.

Boo and hiss??


Zeemax

Sep 14, 2011, 1:42 AM
Post #109 of 181 (1085 views)
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Independent Wingsuit Coach Database [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Again, for the record we are 100% independent but we do have a preferred supplier. Could it be someone other than Tony Suits in the future? Could be...hope not but could be

This statement contradicts itself. How can you be independent if you only work with and champion one brand?


Skwrl  (C 36419)

Sep 14, 2011, 5:35 AM
Post #110 of 181 (1054 views)
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Re: Independent Wingsuit Coach Database [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm curious about something. When someone places an order for a large (or even not large) with PF, TS, or anyone else for that matter, how does the manufacturer know that the wingsuiter is ready? There aren't on site evaluations of people who place orders, to my knowledge. Why does Simon need to be on site, then? Sure, there may be a "have you ever heard of this guy who ordered a [insert very large suit name here]?", but absent that, how does the manufacturer know? I'm guessing they don't, really. So how would Simon be any different? He's basically just a distribution channel for a suit manufacturer... Why is WW being treated differently than PF or TS?

Basically, what's being said is that a guy who buys suits and then leases them out is being held to a higher standard than the people selling the suits themselves. That... doesn't make sense from an ethical or legal standpoint, unless I'm missing something.

[Full disclosure: the sum total of my "affiliation" with Simon is that I bought a Wicked Wingsuit T shirt from him at Skydive Chicago for $20. It's because I look good in red. He also let me surf the internet from his trailer once. I downloaded lots of goat porn. It was legal in the country where it was made...]

On the independence thing, I don't know what his deal is with Tony, but Simon is a shrewd business guy, as is Tony. I suspect they have some sort of agreement whereby WW is not dabbling with other suits in exchange for getting a discount on the suits he buys (in addition to whatever discount he gets for buying in bulk). I'd bet that - when the agreement comes up to be renewed - if Robi gave him a better deal on suits, he'd switch (or at least consider it). In the meanwhile, if you're going to act as an exclusive dealer for a party, you're going to promote that party's products, no?


(This post was edited by Skwrl on Sep 14, 2011, 6:03 AM)


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Sep 14, 2011, 6:55 AM
Post #111 of 181 (1014 views)
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Re: [Zeemax] Independent Wingsuit Coach Database [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Again, for the record we are 100% independent but we do have a preferred supplier. Could it be someone other than Tony Suits in the future? Could be...hope not but could be

This statement contradicts itself. How can you be independent if you only work with and champion one brand?

The coach list and our TS rentals are not directly related. Let's give it a go and see how it works out. We champion a single Wingsuit but don't have a preferred method of training. There isn't a link between the two is my point.


mccordia  (D 94775)

Sep 14, 2011, 6:58 AM
Post #112 of 181 (1011 views)
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Re: [Skwrl] Independent Wingsuit Coach Database [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
how does the manufacturer know that the wingsuiter is ready? There aren't on site evaluations of people who place orders, to my knowledge.

Great point. Thats why there is a list of people on the website (PFC's) who they can go to for instruction. They 100% certify that the people that want to fly the products and get training are qualified to do so.

The list of not independant. Its linked to PF as a company. Safety is the reason.

Nobody is giving Simon shit for the brand he chooses. But the list he has on his site wil serve the function of getting people who choose his suit a teaching. It just means he is also branded. Both his own, and the brand he sells/rents out. He is not independent as he claims.
Independent would be a completely seperate website, not linked to ANY person who has sales, renting, or even selling his/her own coaching as an incentive.

Its fully understood why and how it works with Wicked Wingsuits and Tonysuits. But the subject on this being 'independent' and not linked to a company (be it simons own company or tonysuits) is quite a mute point.

We have (free) licences for wingsuitflyers, showcasing their level of flying (From A to E). That list is free, that list doesnt cost anything. But even with that all said, its NOT INDEPENDENT. Its a list on our website.
But we do stand for the level thats listed there. Every person thats listed is listed as such because thats the level at which they fly (as judged by people who we trust). And not because thats what they wrote themselves about their abilities. That would end up with a list of flyers who all fly like superman on their backs. Yet half of them would stil strugle to fly a slot on their bellies in real life.

Quote:
Basically, what's being said is that a guy who buys suits and then leases them out is being held to a higher standard than the people selling the suits themselves.

Actually no. Thats not whats being said. Whats being said is, if Simon wants to list people capabale of teaching. Make sure they ARE people capable of teaching. If you want to create a teaching group, make sure they teach something thats worth something.

Ive seen a few to many people teach 2 minute first flight courses, and than putting people in HUGE suits on jump #2 with a sale as the only motivation. Getting just any people who wants to throw peple out of a plane in a wingsuit on a list on his website wil for sure generate a lot of new flyers looking to rent suits. But safety is not the motivation if thats the way its handled (no checks on instructional qualities).


normiss  (D 28356)

Sep 14, 2011, 7:01 AM
Post #113 of 181 (1006 views)
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Independent Wingsuit Coach Database [In reply to] Can't Post

IPO???

For a database?


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Sep 14, 2011, 7:18 AM
Post #114 of 181 (995 views)
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Re: [mccordia] Independent Wingsuit Coach Database [In reply to] Can't Post

My present to the world today will be to remove the word "Independent" from the list.

I am a bit anxious about what to rename it because I already used the letters IWCDB in the database....that commits me to using an "I" otherwise it would break the SOE I built. I am thinking Ingenious....or maybe Immature....or even Inbred....all are more fitting than the misuse of the word Independent on a list of coaches that might be biased towards those that hold the TS Wingsuit Training Rating.


In the interest of full disclosure I am also biased toward large dogs as opposed to small dogs, sake over wine, campers over time shares and certainly flying first class over economy. I will try and keep these biases out of the list by having some advisors keep me sane.

Joking aside....at least I thought I was funny you can forget the word Independent as it relates to the list. It will be independent, but I will keep that little secret to myself.


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Sep 14, 2011, 7:20 AM
Post #115 of 181 (994 views)
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Re: [normiss] Independent Wingsuit Coach Database [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
IPO???

For a database?

Heck yea, it worked for Linked In.....the end game here is the $$$$'s.


mccordia  (D 94775)

Sep 14, 2011, 7:25 AM
Post #116 of 181 (992 views)
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Independent Wingsuit Coach Database [In reply to] Can't Post

Shame you try and worm your way out with lame one-liners and jokes, and never seriously address the issues on safety many people had with that listing.


normiss  (D 28356)

Sep 14, 2011, 7:27 AM
Post #117 of 181 (989 views)
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Re: [mccordia] Independent Wingsuit Coach Database [In reply to] Can't Post

"the end game here is in the $$$$$"

With a skydiving db.....

"Safety third!"
Cool


Skwrl  (C 36419)

Sep 14, 2011, 7:31 AM
Post #118 of 181 (988 views)
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Re: [mccordia] Independent Wingsuit Coach Database [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Actually no. Thats not whats being said....

It actually was what was said, but not by you, Jarno. From earlier in the thread: "Rented suits have demonstrated themselves to be a problem regardless of any "waiver/agreement. . . . If you want to rent suits, great. I can see how it can be a good thing ON LOCATION. How do you know that this potential FFC student should be in a Prodigy or Impact vs an Intro or Tbird when they're on the Internet? How do you know they're seeking coaching?"

My response to that is that Simon is no different than the manufacturer who receives an order and fills it without jumping with the customer.

Quote:
Great point. Thats why there is a list of people on the website (PFC's) who they can go to for instruction. They 100% certify that the people that want to fly the products and get training are qualified to do so.

By my point was that, to my knowledge, there is no requirement that before I order a PF product, I MUST be trained by a PF instructor. Would it be a good idea for me to be trained? Sure - no argument. Would I prefer to go to a manufacturer-recommended instructor over someone without such accreditation? Personally, I probably would. But there may be people who can't get easy access to a PF coach or - for whatever reason - don't want to. Why would you tell them that they can't look at another iist. It's a simple fact that independent instructors exist.

Quote:
Independent would be a completely seperate website, not linked to ANY person who has sales, renting, or even selling his/her own coaching as an incentive.

So, to keep with that logic, wingsuitnews.com is not independent then, right? I thought it was. I am baffled.

More to the point, what difference does it make who hosts it, so long as it is being run in an impartial way? Since Simon's business is "rent suits" and he's trying to respond to his customers' request to find coaches, where's the incentive to provide incomplete information? I'm sure that he could also provide a link to the PF website as well...


(This post was edited by Skwrl on Sep 14, 2011, 7:38 AM)


mccordia  (D 94775)

Sep 14, 2011, 7:43 AM
Post #119 of 181 (978 views)
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Re: [Skwrl] Independent Wingsuit Coach Database [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Why would you tell them that they can't look at another iist. It's a simple fact that independent instructors exist.

Yes, but as a manufacturer (or person) you want to make sure that person is doing all things needed. Briefing them on emergency procuderes, checking legstraps, not putting them in huge suits on jump #2 etc.

If you create an independent list, make sure every person on there is someone you're 100% trusting to teach a good FFC/coaching.
Which is hard to impossible with the independent teachers. And some of the big names who are actually quite low with their safety standard will most likely end up on such lists regardless...

Quote:
So, to keep with that logic, wingsuitnews.com is not independent then, right? I thought it was. I am baffled.

I dont see how/why?
Wingsuitnews is not selling any suits. Its not linked to ANY brand. Its not pushing for ANY coaching method. Apples/Oranges?

Quote:
More to the point, what difference does it make who hosts it,

It matters, yes. Not so much as in actual hosting. But in BRANDING and the advertising it can generate. If wingsuitnews was on our flylikebrick mainpage, it would be a great excuse to advertise our own team with every chance we get in magazines. Same with the artistic competition.
But thats done under another banner.

Quote:
Since Simon's business is "rent suits" and he's trying to respond to his customers' request to find coaches, where's the incentive to provide incomplete information?

Safety would be a good reason to CHECK the data on there...validate everyone should be teaching.


Skwrl  (C 36419)

Sep 14, 2011, 8:02 AM
Post #120 of 181 (965 views)
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Re: [mccordia] Independent Wingsuit Coach Database [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you create an independent list, make sure every person on there is someone you're 100% trusting to teach a good FFC/coaching.
Which is hard to impossible with the independent teachers....

Why is it Simon's responsibility to do this? I'm not sure if phone companies in Europe provide "Yellow Pages" (I'm not even sure if they do in the US any more), so I hope this analogy will translate, but I think of a list like this as like "Yellow Pages" for accountants.

Simon is not attempting to qualify or screen instructors, just like the "accountants" section of the yellow pages isn't a list of "pre-screened and qualified" accountants - it's just a list of people who hold themselves out as accountants or bookkeepers. Some of them are Certified Public Accountants, just like some of the people on his list will no doubt be instructors qualified by one school or another. Others will not be CPAs. Might they be good anyway? Sure. Just like you can get a crappy CPA from the list.

Once we moved away from the idea of there being a USPA wingsuit instructor rating, the battle was lost - independent instructors will exist. Pretending they don't, or pretending the only place one can get instruction is from a school, is doing potential wingsuiters a dis-service.

Another analogy - I can get a USPA coach rating from "Skydive University". I can also get one from an independent coach instructor. I hear good things about Skydive University instructors. So I might go to one if I wanted to get a coach rating. But not if it's unduly inconvenient. So I can look in Parachutist and find others... Now, there's no USPA certification for wing suit coaches, I realize... But, as I mentioned, we lost that battle a long, long time ago.


mccordia  (D 94775)

Sep 14, 2011, 8:59 AM
Post #121 of 181 (928 views)
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Re: [Skwrl] Independent Wingsuit Coach Database [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Why is it Simon's responsibility to do this

I guess that comes down to how you see you customers and how much you care about their safety...


virgin-burner

Sep 14, 2011, 9:15 AM
Post #122 of 181 (917 views)
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Re: [mccordia] Independent Wingsuit Coach Database [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Why is it Simon's responsibility to do this

I guess that comes down to how you see you customers and how much you care about their safety...

BOOM!


piisfish

Sep 14, 2011, 9:19 AM
Post #123 of 181 (913 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] Independent Wingsuit Coach Database [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
Why is it Simon's responsibility to do this

I guess that comes down to how you see you customers and how much you care about their safety...

BOOM!
now everybody calm down please.. You can purchase a suit with no experience and go jump it.

I have examples :
-100jump wonder purchasing beginner-mediate suit asking for coaching
-50ws jumps jumper (with a 6yr hiatus in his skydiving activity) purchasing a hugefastmattress suit


Skwrl  (C 36419)

Sep 14, 2011, 9:27 AM
Post #124 of 181 (904 views)
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Re: [mccordia] Independent Wingsuit Coach Database [In reply to] Can't Post

So, Jarno, let me ask you this... As you know, I'm not an instructor currently. I don't rent suits. I am not a wingsuit manufacturer...

So what would your response be if I proposed to do the exact same thing as Simon is proposing? I'm not going to take the position that I know who is and who isn't a good instructor. I would just take a list like he's making and publish it on my web page. Anyone could look at it or link to it as they see fit.

Still bothered?


Skwrl  (C 36419)

Sep 14, 2011, 9:45 AM
Post #125 of 181 (890 views)
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Re: [piisfish] Independent Wingsuit Coach Database [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
BOOM!

Quote:
now everybody calm down please.. You can purchase a suit with no experience and go jump it.

I have examples :
-100jump wonder purchasing beginner-mediate suit asking for coaching
-50ws jumps jumper (with a 6yr hiatus in his skydiving activity) purchasing a hugefastmattress suit

Boom indeed. Crazy If we were that concerned about SAFETY, that wouldn't be possible, now would it?

I think the real complaint here isn't that Simon is proposing a list. I think what the neigh sayers are REALLY saying is that they don't want anyone other than manufacturer-certified people giving instruction - or at the very least, they don't want anyone finding out that there are non-manufacturer-sponsored instructors out there. (Which is tricky at best, since there is no Tonysuit instruction program...)

In a perfect world, we'd have some sort of non-denominational, across the board certification of wingsuit instructors. But that doesn't exist - and the idea was flatly rejected by hordes of wingsuiters when it was proposed.

So the result is that we have one manufacturer program of which I'm aware, a few "schools", and a bunch of folks that just give instruction. You can wish all you want that everyone be certified a PF coach, Flock U coach, or whatever, but that isn't required by the BSRs, and as a result, it isn't going to happen. What Simon is doing is basically creating a place for those who haven't signed onto a school to advertise - or at least be included in a list.

I personally believe in high quality instruction. I think that everyone who gives instruction on wingsuiting should be held to a rigorous, non-denominational (i.e., not tied to a manufacturer) standard. But USPA rejected the proposed USPA WSI rating. And the practical reality is that you aren't going to get everyone who wants to teach wingsuiting to agree to become PF Coaches, even folks who can teach well. So we're left with a bunch of independents. Pretending they don't exist is just silly.


(This post was edited by Skwrl on Sep 14, 2011, 9:47 AM)


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