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Kicking legs during canopy flight

 

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Tidlof  (D 6691)

Sep 11, 2011, 11:35 PM
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Kicking legs during canopy flight Can't Post

So, have I missed something about canopy safety? I thought that making the canopy flight as boring as possible was safe enough. But apparently not, according to one young lady.

Recently I'm flying along at 1500 ft, going due north as straight and level as possible and I see this canopy on the same level that is heading about 160 deg (SSE) and will pass me at a distance of about 300 feet. I was not the least bit concerned about this and if I had something else to do, I would not have noticed this person kicking their feet. But I did and I think, "well that's probably a 100 jump wonder who's excited about a 2 way or new canopy or something."

On the ground, she comes up and asks "did you see me out there?" and I think back, "hmmmm, could I have cut someone off?" But the only canopy remotely close that I saw was the one at 1500 ft, so I say, "you mean about 1500 ft over there?" pointing to the general airspace. She continues, "Yeah I was kicking my feet, didn't you see that?" "Well yeah, but.........." I respond kind of confused. She explains this is her communication to me that she's there and she would appreciate a response, presumably some leg kicks too.

I just say that I didn't know that. I don't bother to point out that at that distance and at the same altitude, at approximately the same descent rate, and as boring as we both were flying, there is no way I could run into her even if I wanted to.

So, have I missed something? i Am I now required to use leg kicking as the new and improved really safe way to make sure to avoid canopy collisions?

For an old fart, the new safety has absolutely taken the fun out of the canopy ride, to the extent, I'm tempted to check my Email on the long boring ride down.

Nomex on........flame away.


DBlank  (D 32564)

Sep 12, 2011, 12:10 AM
Post #2 of 135 (2983 views)
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Re: [Tidlof] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

I was tought that leg kicking is a standard "Hey do you see me?" "yeah I see you." Well it may have been unnecessary at the time and she didn't notice that I'm sure you can think of times when you were wondering if someone else knew you were there?


peek  (D 8884)

Sep 12, 2011, 12:14 AM
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Re: [Tidlof] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So, have I missed something? i Am I now required to use leg kicking as the new and improved really safe way to make sure to avoid canopy collisions?

I don't think you have missed anything, but I can see that in the future, those who have been taught that technique might consider you "bad" for not using it. Required? I hope we don't get to that point.

In a way I can't say that I blame people for being nervous under canopy because of all the canopy collisions that have occurred in the past few years, but there is going to be a wide interpretation of how that technique should be applied.

What some people consider "close" under canopy and therefore what makes them uncomfortable and thinking they need to employ that technique, may by others be considered just a fly-by and a way of saying "hi" under canopy.

I do this regularly with people, and for their comfort I kick my legs just so they know that I know what I am doing and that I see them. For them to have the confidence to fly close to me where we can talk is a bonus.

For those of you reading that feel uncomfortable flying close to another canopy, well, a little CRW training or maybe just a few no-contact CRW jumps with an experienced canopy pilot with a similar wing loading can give you some knowledge and skills that will help address this.)


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Sep 12, 2011, 5:50 AM
Post #4 of 135 (2897 views)
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Re: [Tidlof] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

I have used a "leg wave" for years and it works quite well in communicating your knowledge of other pilot's positions.

I've also wondered why it isn't considered the norm sport-wide.Unsure


BoogeyMan

Sep 12, 2011, 6:41 AM
Post #5 of 135 (2854 views)
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Re: [Tidlof] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

So, I learned something. Leg kicking.
My experience is/was that another jumper would either yell, "Yo...", or "...heads up..." or whistle to gain attention, then follow up with a crotch grab and an extended finger to all. Which was followed by maniacal laughter.
Has all the kool fun stuff gone out of style in our sport?Laugh


(This post was edited by BoogeyMan on Sep 12, 2011, 6:42 AM)


hokierower  (B 36150)

Sep 12, 2011, 6:52 AM
Post #6 of 135 (2839 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

Yep, I was taught this and use it frequently. It's an easy way to confirm that you both see each other, similar to wing wagging for planes. If I don't get a response then I stay the hell away from them.


dragon2  (D 101989)

Sep 12, 2011, 7:03 AM
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Re: [Tidlof] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

It's not something new, it's something I've been using for years.

I use it whenever I want to make sure a person sees me, and in my case this often involves me wanting to fly close to them under canopy for filming/photos (tandemvideo, newbies after a FS3 competition etc). If they don't respond, I take it they didn't see me and I stay the heck away from them.

Most people here seem to know what the leg kicking means. It's also used as a "breakoff" signal after CRW (or me sticking close to another canopy for filming), "bye".

But yeah, i suppose if you're exited you could use it also Cool I did get a shot of such an exited jumper after the WorldTeam 2006 record, it's in the record video @ 3:13 Wink


Tidlof  (D 6691)

Sep 12, 2011, 8:12 AM
Post #8 of 135 (2764 views)
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Re: OK, got it, [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the education without the flames. Now I know and it will give me something to do under canopy besides just wait to get to the ground.

I guess I've jumped so many years with buds I know and trust on "my DZ" that it never came up. On 4 way loads, and after clearing the air below, 2 or 3 of us would "dog-fight" and spiral down chasing each other as well as just fly no contact CRW. Now of course, we don't do that and especially not at other DZ's because just seeing 2 canopies that close would scare people and they'd be calling immediately for an ambulance. Or a straight jacket.

Since I don't have a home DZ anymore and jump with lots of strangers, I would've thought I'd have seen lots of leg kicking before this. But I'm on belly flying loads with other old farts who, apparently, are as clueless as I am. But not to worry, we'll soon be in our rocking chairs and out of the way. Wink


diablopilot  (D License)

Sep 12, 2011, 8:31 AM
Post #9 of 135 (2743 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have used a "leg wave" for years and it works quite well in communicating your knowledge of other pilot's positions.

I've also wondered why it isn't considered the norm sport-wide.Unsure

Do we wave at each other on the highway?


piisfish

Sep 12, 2011, 8:36 AM
Post #10 of 135 (2738 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Do we wave at each other on the highway?
you never drove in Ireland did you ?


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Sep 12, 2011, 9:09 AM
Post #11 of 135 (2696 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I have used a "leg wave" for years and it works quite well in communicating your knowledge of other pilot's positions.

I've also wondered why it isn't considered the norm sport-wide.Unsure

Do we wave at each other on the highway?

I've seen it done and my thoughts have also been... if you don't cut across the landing pattern and go with the flow of traffic... would there ever be a need for the leg-kicking for those situations other than, OH SHIT. Kinda like a car horn to a fuck up. If we're all using the car horn... after awhile nobody pays attention.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 12, 2011, 10:21 AM
Post #12 of 135 (2639 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

>Do we wave at each other on the highway?

Nope. But we definitely talk to each other when flying at an uncontrolled airport, which is a much closer comparison. Skydivers would talk to each other if they could, but that's hard. A leg wave is a (partial) substitute for that level of communication, meaning basically "I see you." There are a great many times that I've been happy to see that signal from someone else who (initially) looks like they are fixing to blunder into me.


JohnRich  (D License)

Sep 12, 2011, 10:59 AM
Post #13 of 135 (2624 views)
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Re: [BoogeyMan] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My experience is/was that another jumper would either yell, "Yo...", or "...heads up..." or whistle to gain attention, then follow up with a crotch grab and an extended finger to all. Which was followed by maniacal laughter. Has all the kool fun stuff gone out of style in our sport?Laugh

Well, shouting out doesn't work anymore, because everyone is wearing those cool full-face helmets which block off their ears and their sense of hearing, as well as their ability to project a laugh or to shout out at you. And they also wear those cool mirror sunglasses so that you can't make eye contact and you don't know where they're looking, so that's now out too. Then there's the cool high performance canopies which the users don't dare take their hands out of the toggles for a second to grab their crotch. And of course, they're wearing a Go-Pro camera on their helmet too, so they don't want to turn their head to look at you because it will mess up the video. So, yeah, all we've got left is a leg kick with which to communicate. Something will probably come along shortly to remove that too. Then we'll be down to; "Hey, didn't you see me wiggling my toes at you?"


(This post was edited by JohnRich on Sep 12, 2011, 12:20 PM)


shropshire  (C License)

Sep 12, 2011, 11:08 AM
Post #14 of 135 (2611 views)
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Re: [hokierower] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If I don't get a response then I stay the hell away from them.


Cool - I get space


BoogeyMan

Sep 12, 2011, 11:11 AM
Post #15 of 135 (2606 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

Gaawd........... Your right. How depressing.Unsure
On the lighter side, though, one should always be able to find time for a quick crotch grab or to project a finger. I mean, what are friends for?


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Sep 12, 2011, 11:27 AM
Post #16 of 135 (2597 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I have used a "leg wave" for years and it works quite well in communicating your knowledge of other pilot's positions.

I've also wondered why it isn't considered the norm sport-wide.Unsure

Do we wave at each other on the highway?

Nope. We use center lines, brakes lights, and turn signals instead.


dragon2  (D 101989)

Sep 12, 2011, 11:38 AM
Post #17 of 135 (2585 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

I got center lines, and I could stick a hand out if I want to turn? (@2:08 but the whole thing is funny of course)


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Sep 12, 2011, 11:39 AM
Post #18 of 135 (2581 views)
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Re: [BIGUN] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I have used a "leg wave" for years and it works quite well in communicating your knowledge of other pilot's positions.

I've also wondered why it isn't considered the norm sport-wide.Unsure

Do we wave at each other on the highway?

I've seen it done and my thoughts have also been... if you don't cut across the landing pattern and go with the flow of traffic... would there ever be a need for the leg-kicking for those situations other than, OH SHIT. Kinda like a car horn to a fuck up. If we're all using the car horn... after awhile nobody pays attention.

Unlike driving where lane markings dictate vehicle positioning and laws tightly control movement, there are an infinite number of variables while flying canopies, especially above "pattern" altitude where there is no set way to fly.

There have been many collisions and many times more near-misses from "I thought you saw me" syndrome. Using visual signals under canopy is a way to communicate traffic identification, much the way pilots wag their wings at each other or more commonly use radios to verbally communicate traffic identification and response.


MikeJD  (D 10605)

Sep 12, 2011, 11:49 AM
Post #19 of 135 (2566 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And they also wear those cool mirror sunglasses so that you can't make eye contact and you don't know where they're looking.

If another canopy pilot's mirror sunglasses are causing you a problem, I'd say you're already too close. Especially if you can see your reflection Wink.


(This post was edited by MikeJD on Sep 12, 2011, 11:50 AM)


normiss  (D 28356)

Sep 12, 2011, 11:59 AM
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Re: [diablopilot] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

Motorcyclists generally do!
Tongue


airtwardo  (D License)

Sep 12, 2011, 12:26 PM
Post #21 of 135 (2535 views)
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Re: [shropshire] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
If I don't get a response then I stay the hell away from them.


Cool - I get space

Exactly...sure I see ya, saw ya long before you were tread-milling. If I don't respond maybe you'll keep your distance! CoolSly


shropshire  (C License)

Sep 12, 2011, 1:16 PM
Post #22 of 135 (2512 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
If I don't get a response then I stay the hell away from them.


Cool - I get space

Exactly...sure I see ya, saw ya long before you were tread-milling. If I don't respond maybe you'll keep your distance! CoolSly

Yeap - you got itCool


ufk22  (D 16168)

Sep 12, 2011, 2:34 PM
Post #23 of 135 (2474 views)
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Re: [Tidlof] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

Had the same thing happen last year down at Sebastian.
Only, this gal got right in my face about it.
She was never within 500 yards of me under canopy.
I had never heard of this either.
Neither had a number of people I talked to at Sebastian. Seems to be, if I can see you, I'll wag my legs, not just if there is any chance of a canopy collision.
No problem, I'll use it when necessary.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 12, 2011, 5:07 PM
Post #24 of 135 (2408 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Well, shouting out doesn't work anymore, because everyone is wearing those cool ......
You forgot.....MP3 players for the brain-dead and digital altimeter beepers in the helmet to tell them when to turn.


To everyone:
It's a good safety habit.
It's a good common sense thing
It's good manners
It's a good courtesy
....to acknowledge that you see someone.

Not everyone is aware. Not everyone will react properly even if they are aware. Not everyone is the hotshot canopy pilot that can skim the top of your canopy on a high-speed drive-by.

Kick to ask, kick to acknowedge...really simple.

The Sebastian girl was off base...not every one knows this little trick. Education is sometimes better than a good, old-fashioned bitch-out


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Sep 12, 2011, 5:43 PM
Post #25 of 135 (2393 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Kicking legs during canopy flight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Well, shouting out doesn't work anymore, because everyone is wearing those cool ......
You forgot.....MP3 players for the brain-dead and digital altimeter beepers in the helmet to tell them when to turn.

Not to mention today's faster canopies create a lot more wind noise, reducing hearing ability.

Kicky, kicky folks.


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