Forums: Skydiving: Tandem Skydiving:
Tandem Mal: Land a Lineover or in the water

 


Catwatch

Sep 1, 2011, 6:32 AM
Post #1 of 19 (2204 views)
Shortcut
Tandem Mal: Land a Lineover or in the water Can't Post

Hey Guys,
Here is one for you to discuss. It didn't happen to me and though I know there was a case where this actually happened, I have not seen it and can't give any more details than I'm posting here. So imagine this:

Your doing tandems at a dropzone close to the sea. For sunset you are doing a tandem landing at the beach. Because of the wind conditions the jumprun goes out to the sea and after an uneventfull freefall you open the main over sea at your normal deployment altitude. Then you have a line over mal, which cannot be solved but the canopy flies straight when you bury one toggle. Of course it will be impossible to flare like this.. Imagine further that you will reach the beach when you fly straight from here to the land but may not reach it when losing altitude by cutting away.
Now here comes the question: Do you cutaway when you don't know for sure if this will result in a waterlanding? Do you cutaway if you know it will result in a waterlanding?

Discussion on :)


piisfish

Sep 1, 2011, 7:46 AM
Post #2 of 19 (2163 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Catwatch] Tandem Mal: Land a Lineover or in the water [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't really understand. Do you want us to choose between :
-land a lineover on the ground
or
-land a reserve in the water

Is that it ?


Catwatch

Sep 1, 2011, 8:07 AM
Post #3 of 19 (2148 views)
Shortcut
Re: [piisfish] Tandem Mal: Land a Lineover or in the water [In reply to] Can't Post

yes


piisfish

Sep 1, 2011, 8:17 AM
Post #4 of 19 (2141 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Catwatch] Tandem Mal: Land a Lineover or in the water [In reply to] Can't Post

for me lineover = chop

if jumping over water, I hope the tandem had floatation gear, plus water safety (boat/Pamela Anderson etc)

getting a lineover landed on ground would definitely hurt.


irishrigger  (D 297)

Sep 1, 2011, 8:21 AM
Post #5 of 19 (2141 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Catwatch] Tandem Mal: Land a Lineover or in the water [In reply to] Can't Post

i am a tandem examiner and i have jumped at dropzones that was close to lakes and the sea.i always look out the door before the jumping over water. if in doubt ask the pilot to make another pass to make sure you have a good spot. and when i worked in NZ,sometimes we had to jump 1-1.5 miles over the lake as the uppers where very strong,so i always pull a few seconds earlier to make sure to get back.so instead of pulling at 5k i would pull at 6k.it is also the law that the passenger and you have a floatation device if jumping within 1Km of open water i believe.
as for having to decide wether to cutaway or not from a line over,that question has me worried.i have seen a couple solo students try to land a line over after they failed to do the correct EP's. let me tell you it was not pretty! so with the same situation on a tandem i would not even consider or even attempt it. i will always take the safest option. you can not land a tandem safely if you have to hold a toggle all the way down! so i would always cutaway from a situation like that. and take a water landing if i have to.
those are my thoughts

rodger


AggieDave  (D License)

Sep 1, 2011, 3:08 PM
Post #6 of 19 (2009 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Catwatch] Tandem Mal: Land a Lineover or in the water [In reply to] Can't Post

You can't trust a line over to stay stable and constant. There is always a significant chance of things getting much worst very quickly and you can never get the altitude you give up back!


koppel  (F License)

Sep 1, 2011, 5:49 PM
Post #7 of 19 (1985 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Catwatch] Tandem Mal: Land a Lineover or in the water [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hey Guys,
Here is one for you to discuss. It didn't happen to me and though I know there was a case where this actually happened, I have not seen it and can't give any more details than I'm posting here. So imagine this:

Your doing tandems at a dropzone close to the sea. For sunset you are doing a tandem landing at the beach. Because of the wind conditions the jumprun goes out to the sea and after an uneventfull freefall you open the main over sea at your normal deployment altitude. Then you have a line over mal, which cannot be solved but the canopy flies straight when you bury one toggle. Of course it will be impossible to flare like this.. Imagine further that you will reach the beach when you fly straight from here to the land but may not reach it when losing altitude by cutting away.
Now here comes the question: Do you cutaway when you don't know for sure if this will result in a waterlanding? Do you cutaway if you know it will result in a waterlanding?

Discussion on :)

How about when you have a tandem mal over the water and you then have a tension knot on your 360 reserve....

Instructor did a great job landing in waist deep water preventing this incident ending up with any major injuries.


Baksteen  (C 708753)

Sep 2, 2011, 3:11 AM
Post #8 of 19 (1929 views)
Shortcut
Re: [koppel] Tandem Mal: Land a Lineover or in the water [In reply to] Can't Post

Without seeing the video, Koppels post reminds me of an argument I hear way too often:

Why cutaway a mal (in this case a lineover) when the mal on my reserve might be the same or even worse?

I trust my rigger. Yes, riggers are human and all humans make mistakes, but really? Would you trust your capabilities to land an unpredictable, malfunctioning main more than you would trust your rigger?


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Sep 2, 2011, 4:48 PM
Post #9 of 19 (1831 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Catwatch] Tandem Mal: Land a Lineover or in the water [In reply to] Can't Post

Any thoughts on chopping and turning out to sea?


obelixtim  (D 84)

Sep 3, 2011, 5:54 PM
Post #10 of 19 (1737 views)
Shortcut
Re: [AggieDave] Tandem Mal: Land a Lineover or in the water [In reply to] Can't Post

 The golden rule that has served skydiving well over 50 years is worth remembering. Deal with problems early, at altitude, and get yourself under a good parachute. It will always hold true.

If you don't trust your reserve, don't get in the plane.

Riding a problem is the quick route to the hospital or worse, cemetery.

At low level turbulence will kill you if you have a canopy collapse.

Doubly important on a Tandem. I'm surprised the question is even asked.

As for the tension knot on the reserve....a hook knife on the offending line would solve the problem.


pirana  (D 30661)

Sep 8, 2011, 7:59 AM
Post #11 of 19 (1556 views)
Shortcut
Re: [AggieDave] Tandem Mal: Land a Lineover or in the water [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You can't trust a line over to stay stable and constant. There is always a significant chance of things getting much worst very quickly and you can never get the altitude you give up back!

I'm stealing that line for my FJC:

"You can never get altitude back."

I'll augment it with my usual lecture about making good decisions while they still have the altitude to do so.


feuergnom  (D License)

Sep 9, 2011, 6:05 AM
Post #12 of 19 (1403 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pirana] Tandem Mal: Land a Lineover or in the water [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
You can't trust a line over to stay stable and constant. There is always a significant chance of things getting much worst very quickly and you can never get the altitude you give up back!

I'm stealing that line for my FJC:

"You can never get altitude back."

I'll augment it with my usual lecture about making good decisions while they still have the altitude to do so.

+1

and that opens a whole other can of worms: I could never get into the mindset of some TM's smoking tandems down to 1200 meters or less just to make quicker turnarounds Unimpressed


Abedy  (D 10153)

Sep 9, 2011, 10:39 AM
Post #13 of 19 (1372 views)
Shortcut
Re: [feuergnom] Tandem Mal: Land a Lineover or in the water [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I could never get into the mindset of some TM's smoking tandems down to 1200 meters or less just to make quicker turnarounds Unimpressed
So do I!
By the way: AFAIK that's 200 m below the hard deck for minted TI's. Anyone can prove they do so, they should get a nice smack into their bum at least!


ufk22  (D 16168)

Sep 9, 2011, 10:40 AM
Post #14 of 19 (1371 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Catwatch] Tandem Mal: Land a Lineover or in the water [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry, but this is not a realistic scenario.
If a semi-functioning canopy the needs to be flown with one toggle all the way down will reach land, a cutaway with RSL deployment of reserve will reach land, skyhook even more likely. Even if not, why attempt to land something that could get real ugly down low. Hitting water in freefall, or even 1/2 freefall, is a lot like hitting the ground. It's not "soft".
There is no reason to even discuss landing a line-over.


jumpsalot-2  (D 33093)

Sep 9, 2011, 5:04 PM
Post #15 of 19 (1343 views)
Shortcut
Re: [obelixtim] Tandem Mal: Land a Lineover or in the water [In reply to] Can't Post

 

As for the tension knot on the reserve....a hook knife on the offending line would solve the problem.
In reply to:
A hook knife was my first thought for the main line over, if it is a quick visual on the line, and you have altitude, cut the line then assess the situation..............if you have the altitude, of course.


stayhigh  (F 111)

Sep 9, 2011, 9:30 PM
Post #16 of 19 (1325 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Catwatch] Tandem Mal: Land a Lineover or in the water [In reply to] Can't Post

this question makes me question thinking process of OP's 1000+ jumps.
How will line over-ed main will out fly perfect reserve???
Even if you lose 500 to 1000 ft in a process of cutaway well flying reserve will out fly line overed main.


skydiverton2  (D License)

Sep 14, 2011, 12:55 AM
Post #17 of 19 (1174 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Catwatch] Tandem Mal: Land a Lineover or in the water [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hey Guys,
Here is one for you to discuss. It didn't happen to me and though I know there was a case where this actually happened, I have not seen it and can't give any more details than I'm posting here. So imagine this:

Your doing tandems at a dropzone close to the sea. For sunset you are doing a tandem landing at the beach. Because of the wind conditions the jumprun goes out to the sea and after an uneventfull freefall you open the main over sea at your normal deployment altitude. Then you have a line over mal, which cannot be solved but the canopy flies straight when you bury one toggle. Of course it will be impossible to flare like this.. Imagine further that you will reach the beach when you fly straight from here to the land but may not reach it when losing altitude by cutting away.
Now here comes the question: Do you cutaway when you don't know for sure if this will result in a waterlanding? Do you cutaway if you know it will result in a waterlanding?

Discussion on :)

I doubt you understand the way canopies fly.

A main with a line over and the other side in full brakes is very unstable and will not have the glideangle you expect.
The small altitude loss due to a chop will be easily compensated by the glide angle of a reserve compared to the unpredictable (steep) angle of a malfunctioning main (1 side does not fly proper, the other 1 is 100% brake)

A 100% non-discussion. Just break away. Act as trained don't try to reinvent the wheel and find out you have an unlandable main in 200ft!!


Catwatch

Sep 19, 2011, 7:44 AM
Post #18 of 19 (1093 views)
Shortcut
Re: [skydiverton2] Tandem Mal: Land a Lineover or in the water [In reply to] Can't Post

you guys are great...My intention was to stir up a little discussion..in no way I gave my own opinion or a "what would I have done" in my first post...

Just to clear this up. If I would have been in that situation I would have chopped it for sure, as I'm handling problems when they occur and deal with the consequences afterwards. Landing a main with a line over is out of question for me. I even think I would not even think so far, as "will I land in the water if I cutaway here" at that moment when the decision is to be made...
however in the case I described I was told the TI (who I do not know personally, I do not even know his name) chose to land the main and came away with a few bruises...


obelixtim  (D 84)

Sep 19, 2011, 8:24 AM
Post #19 of 19 (1083 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Catwatch] Tandem Mal: Land a Lineover or in the water [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
you guys are great...My intention was to stir up a little discussion..in no way I gave my own opinion or a "what would I have done" in my first post...

Just to clear this up. If I would have been in that situation I would have chopped it for sure, as I'm handling problems when they occur and deal with the consequences afterwards. Landing a main with a line over is out of question for me. I even think I would not even think so far, as "will I land in the water if I cutaway here" at that moment when the decision is to be made...
however in the case I described I was told the TI (who I do not know personally, I do not even know his name) chose to land the main and came away with a few bruises...

Hopefully he lost his rating......as well.



Forums : Skydiving : Tandem Skydiving

 


Search for (options)