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Digital Altimeters and Audibles for students

 

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PiLFy  (A License)

Aug 27, 2011, 6:00 AM
Post #51 of 176 (686 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Digital Altimeters and Audibles for students [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Jim,
Sure, an audible can fail too. If I don't hear the initial beep @1K'. I'll disregard, & sort it out later. I don't know where I fall in relation to other Newbies being able to judge altitude. I don't feel comfortable that I can judge them accurately enough for safety, yet. Almost all of my jumps are w/up-jumpers w/a lot more experience. They come in to land @all different alts & headings. I don't have a lot of other visual cues to go on. At my level, I rely on instruments for at least starting the pattern. Try to remember what it was like before you had thousands of jumps. I can pretty much tell when I'm @1K'. However, much above that, & I'm on instruments.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Aug 27, 2011, 6:05 AM
Post #52 of 176 (681 views)
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Re: [bart] Digital Altimeters and Audibles for students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As for the last thing Our young friend isn't the one who has been conducting the trial, he didn't start the thread. However his opinion like everyones is valid, but for sure all our opinions are valid. For sure interpreted in conjuction with the left hand column. Why your comparing his experience with my thread and not my experience I'm not really sure. I really dislike talking about the whole jump number experience thing, for sure it's important to have a solid background and experience when discussing these things but the I have more jumps than you kind of fades when you have instructors all with years and 1000's of jumps training students. So If your into reading the left column you would see I'm not a new comer either. Chuck may have lots of experience (I also read the left columnWink) and I totally respect that, but does he have experience with these devices and students?, does he have experience training students to fly parachutes with out the use of radios?. I'm gathering from his responses that the answer is no. Here we have experience with both and plenty of experience with training students with out the use of radios!! I'm not theorising here, I'm actually communicating results from what we have actually done in the field. As I said the audible thing is really new for us but its working. oh and no offence takenSmile

1. The reason people are responding to the newbie (and subsequently questioning his wisdom) is because he is making comments, just as people reply to you when you make them.

2. The newbie's opinion may be valid (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean), but let's be honest - the odds of anyone's position being accurate go way up with long term exposure to the environment of which he or she opines. 2 years and 60 jumps? Sorry, but that's not the guy I'll hang mine or a student's safety on.

3. Do I need to swoop to know it adds risk? Do I need a pilot's license to understand the physics of flight? No and no. You are correct that I have never worked with students using audibles. That's because there's no need to. It's not the physical act of training student on audibles that I disagree with. It's the concept of adding to the complexity of canopy control unnecessarily, and for that I don't need trial and error. The point is simple. Radios are available, reliable, and cheap. In the hands of a qualified operator, radios can be used to actually TEACH. Audibles beep. That's all, just beep. That's not teaching.

4. I do have experience with no-radio operations as I was a no-radio baby. And you know what? It worked just fine for every student I watched when I was training. "Be here at 1000, be here at 500." What the hell is so hard about that?

Most importantly, you made the original post to solicit qualified (valid?) opinions, and then you argue with very qualified people who opine. If you like audibles on students, go for it. But why ask for input when you've clearly decided what is right?

And finally - why have you not answered the most important question in this entire thread....I'll ask it again.

Why the hell does the DZ just not buy some damn radios????????


PiLFy  (A License)

Aug 27, 2011, 6:07 AM
Post #53 of 176 (681 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Digital Altimeters and Audibles for students [In reply to] Can't Post

More BS from Akers. What a surprise... Paul already knows I respect & seek his opinions. If what we've come to is more Newbies asking more questions? That's a good thing. It will ultimately help the sport grow. Intransigently holding onto past methodology will not.


airtwardo  (D License)

Aug 27, 2011, 6:07 AM
Post #54 of 176 (678 views)
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Re: [PiLFy] Digital Altimeters and Audibles for students [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't have a lot of other visual cues to go on...


In reply to:

In all seriousness, constantly look out of the airplane on the way up and check your altimeter. Cement those images in your brain at every 1000' feet. There WILL be a time in your future when your instruments will fail you...be ready for it.

I make it a game, guessing and checking...doing the math to see how fast we're climbing. Wink


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Aug 27, 2011, 6:07 AM
Post #55 of 176 (677 views)
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Re: [PiLFy] Digital Altimeters and Audibles for students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Below is where our discussion ended in the other thread, Andy. You claimed I'd attributed thoughts & statements that weren't yours, to you. I refreshed your memory w/the below reply. I'm not regurgitating anything. I've repeatedly acknowledged that I'm a new jumper w/no ratings on this board. That's hardly putting myself out there as a know-it-all. What I've done, is respectfully put forth ideas for discussion. From a few crusty old-timers like yourself, I've gotten derision instead. Respect is something you earn. Attempting to negate my ideas, simply due to my jump numbers, isn't the way to go. Show me I'm wrong. Provide sound examples from your considerable experience. At Bart's DZ, they're trying this, & it's working out very well. The sky hasn't fallen. The multiple predicted problems haven't materialized. That speaks a lot louder to me than your dismissive rhetoric. If you can refute my ideas w/credible examples? I'm all ears. If derision & dodging the issue are all you've got? I'm going to finish writing you off. As you seem to love to say: So be it.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________


Re: [popsjumper] AFF Level 7 - Cutaway - Argus fire [In reply to] Quote | Reply
You attribute a couple ideas and statements to me that I didn't make. So be it.

Well, geez, I didn't realize I was taking "cheap shots".


In Reply To
Dude, it took you 2500ft under a (albiet spiraling) canopy to locate and pull your handles?

He was waiting for the beep.

In Reply To
To Pops note, c'mon now...you know better than to say I was waiting for that beep...

Yes, it was tongue-in-cheek raggin' on audible use for students.
___________________________________________________

For example:
"You think Germaine's article doesn't apply to students."
The discussion here is about freefall. BG's article is about landing patterns - not applicable here. Two different animals. No, they're not. If a student's wrist Alti goes south. That audible might well be the difference between a safe landing, or an ambulance ride.
______________________________________________

But to be fair across the board, I'll re-think.

Oh, BTW the article by BG is not relevant to student training, IMO.
From Germaine's article: "Within this broad objective is the ability to fly a safe and consistent landing pattern. This is crucial for everyone, from the highest level of experience down to the beginner.//Altitude awareness is not something that ends once the canopy opens.//The time has come to utilize these tools for students and intermediate skydivers as well."

Post AFF training maybe, Post A-license training for sure. Well, I'll be damned. Post-AFF is still student status. Post-A license is certainly under 100 jumps. The party line has long been "No audible until >100 jumps." Did the glass just crack? Did you cede these points intentionally? It's not your position on this that irks me, Andy. You're certainly entitled to your opinion. It's your tone that's sometimes right under the surface, & other times more overt. Your mind doesn't seem open to new tricks. You said to be fair, you'd rethink it. Most of your posts don't reflect that. You're firmly entrenched in the no-audibles-for-students camp? OK, as you said: "So be it." I don't want to argue w/you. I've explained my thoughts more in replies to others. Feel free to read them.

You have a nice night too, sir.

Kenny

Kenny has resorted to babble. Or is that wisdom?


PiLFy  (A License)

Aug 27, 2011, 6:17 AM
Post #56 of 176 (677 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Digital Altimeters and Audibles for students [In reply to] Can't Post

No sir,
You are coming across as the joke here. Dismissing me due to jump #s w/o answering my questions. I can hear you imitating Cartman's "Respect my authotitayy!!"

I see you finally commented in more depth to Bart further down the page. That's more than I can say for Andy. I'll have another look @what you said there...


PiLFy  (A License)

Aug 27, 2011, 6:21 AM
Post #57 of 176 (674 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Digital Altimeters and Audibles for students [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, I'm trying to do that, Jim (though not earnestly, I'll admit.). I already have lost an Alti once. I don't know how much longer it will take for my Mk1s to be ready for prime time. We're not there yet, though.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Aug 27, 2011, 6:23 AM
Post #58 of 176 (670 views)
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Re: [PiLFy] Digital Altimeters and Audibles for students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hi Jim,
Sure, an audible can fail too. If I don't hear the initial beep @1K'. I'll disregard, & sort it out later.

Exactly the point. When an audible fails, the jumper has no way of knowing it did, forcing them to "sort it out later".

I don't know where I fall in relation to other Newbies being able to judge altitude. I don't feel comfortable that I can judge them accurately enough for safety, yet.

So are you using an audible for canopy control? Sure sounds like you need one.

Almost all of my jumps are w/up-jumpers w/a lot more experience. They come in to land @all different alts & headings.

If folks at your DZ are flying patterns and landing in different directions on a regular basis, you should be addressing that problem. And how exactly does that necessitate the use of a beep?

I don't have a lot of other visual cues to go on. At my level....

At 2.5 jumps per month over 2 years, I doubt you ever will.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Aug 27, 2011, 6:28 AM
Post #59 of 176 (667 views)
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Re: [PiLFy] Digital Altimeters and Audibles for students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
No sir,
You are coming across as the joke here. Dismissing me due to jump #s w/o answering my questions. I can hear you imitating Cartman's "Respect my authotitayy!!"

I see you finally commented in more depth to Bart further down the page. That's more than I can say for Andy. I'll have another look @what you said there...

I don't recall failing to answer any question you asked. If I did, please restate it and I'll gladly answer.

And you might want to think about who looks comedic here. You have less than 100 jumps. Your exposure to the sport is quite simply miniscule, yet you speak with the confidence of a veteran skydiver with thousands of jumps and many years in the saddle. That makes you look like silly.

No offense intended, but it is what it is.


riggerpaul  (D 28098)

Aug 27, 2011, 6:29 AM
Post #60 of 176 (670 views)
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Re: [PiLFy] Digital Altimeters and Audibles for students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hi Paul,
Sorry, but not so fast, friend. Altis can fail in non-obvious ways, like mine did. My Alti that jump started sticking on the way down. It was OK on the ride to alt., BTW. Had it frozen in one position? I'd have known immediately that it had crapped out. It didn't. If I had had a second device available to me. I could have compared the two. An Audible is a backup, not a primary device. If I don't hear the beep @1K'? I know it isn't working. I'll disregard it, & go w/my primary Alti. I'm sorry, but your reasoning would disqualify the Galaxy I was wearing that day on the same grounds.

The odds of a well-cared for Galaxy failing are slim. The odds of said Galaxy, plus an Optima failing, are remote... Which odds would you rather bet your life & limb on as a student?

An audible on a student will not be a backup - it will be a primary system.

The published intent of the audible is to stop students from fixating on the visual altimeter.

As others have mentioned, we used to do S/L without altimeters until into the longer delay portion of the course.

The reasons were to develop the student's sense of the jump, and to preclude fixation.

Today's students are no better, and arguably worse.

Adding more gizmos is not the solution.

Training in a more sensible way is the solution.


PiLFy  (A License)

Aug 27, 2011, 6:32 AM
Post #61 of 176 (673 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Digital Altimeters and Audibles for students [In reply to] Can't Post

What I resorted to, was the truth. You read through all of that, & all you get out of it is "Babble?" Your reading comprehension skills need work. I think your objectivity does, as well.

I'll tell you what, Chuckles. I'm thoroughly unimpressed w/your lack of refutation, & your demeanor towards me. I'm done w/you. Whatever you could have taught me. I'll learn from someone else w/o a 'tude.

As you travel around the country. Should your Luck run out one day in an unknown city? As you look up, battered & broken, from your gurney. Don't be surprised if you see my face. You'll be in my world, then. Be more cognizant of how you treat others.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Aug 27, 2011, 6:38 AM
Post #62 of 176 (664 views)
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Re: [bart] Digital Altimeters and Audibles for students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

...its just we don't use them here, in fact they never have.

So I'll ask again - why not?

And don't say you don't use them because they can fail. That's like saying you don't jump with a reserve because it might malfunction when you need it.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Aug 27, 2011, 6:44 AM
Post #63 of 176 (666 views)
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Re: [PiLFy] Digital Altimeters and Audibles for students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What I resorted to, was the truth. You read through all of that, & all you get out of it is "Babble?" Your reading comprehension skills need work. I think your objectivity does, as well.

I'll tell you what, Chuckles. I'm thoroughly unimpressed w/your lack of refutation, & your demeanor towards me. I'm done w/you. Whatever you could have taught me. I'll learn from someone else w/o a 'tude.

As you travel around the country. Should your Luck run out one day in an unknown city? As you look up, battered & broken, from your gurney. Don't be surprised if you see my face. You'll be in my world, then. Be more cognizant of how you treat others.

Wow man, you're a piece of work. Again, ask a question and I'll gladly answer it. Otherwise, your comments are really just...well...babble.

And if you're worried about taking advise from someone with a "tude", you picked the wrong sport. Ask around. I think you'll find that my contributions are pretty well documented and respected.

But you are of course entitled to your very uneducated opinion.


PiLFy  (A License)

Aug 27, 2011, 6:56 AM
Post #64 of 176 (663 views)
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Re: [riggerpaul] Digital Altimeters and Audibles for students [In reply to] Can't Post

Audible use for students in this thread, is in two parts. The hard deck, & the canopy alarms. Taken separately:

Hard deck: If a student was supposed to pull @5,500', but is still in freefall @2,500". I'd say something is already seriously wrong, no? Would you pregfer they fumble/freeze/whatever until the AAD (hopefully. Barring a number of nasty scenarios) fires, & saves them? Or, would a pre-AAD emergency siren, cuing them to pull silver w/1,000'+ of extra alt., be better? If not, why? Pop the audible in there, & forget about it (from the student's viewpoint). If they ever hear it? Something is already very wrong. Why deny them more of a chance for survival? That is how they're being used @that DZ in Oz. They're essentially an extension of an AAD in that regard. Do you approve of that use for them?

Canopy alarms: I think this is where most of the resistance is centered. Will some students blindly turn when they here the beep? I'm sure some will. Some will screw up no matter how long you drill proper techniques into them. This is for the majority of students. Analog Altis are imprecise <1K'. It takes extra attention to stare @them, & read the indicated alt. The audibles take very little attention, conversely. The students can spend that time/attention w/their heads up instead. How is that not safer? Landing is a series of cues: winds, traffic, obstacles, etc... Your alt is only one part of the puzzle. If their wrist Alti fails? They'll have a backup. If it doesn't? They'll have another tool to utilize. One that will free up attention, not sap it. Worrying about your Wrist Alti failing is quite a distracting force, too. It was for me when I was a student. Radios fail, & are often impossible to hear until almost on the ground. Would you say those points are valid?


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Aug 27, 2011, 7:02 AM
Post #65 of 176 (662 views)
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Re: [PiLFy] Digital Altimeters and Audibles for students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Analog Altis are imprecise <1K'.

You shouldn't need an altimeter below 1000 feet.

Why do some insist on making simple things complicated? Take off all the damn instruments and fly your canopies. It really is pretty easy.


PiLFy  (A License)

Aug 27, 2011, 7:12 AM
Post #66 of 176 (660 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Digital Altimeters and Audibles for students [In reply to] Can't Post

I have asked questions. You've failed repeatedly to answer them. You normally give good feedback on this board. I've respected you for that. You haven't done that here. I've found a few instructors w/poor 'tudes, Chuck. I avoid them. I choose to learn from the majority of instructors. I've found them to be open, friendly, & free w/their knowledge.

This is what the OP asked:

Have any other instructors out there been using digital altimeters and or audibles for AFF student?

What was the motivation for using these devices?

Has anyone had any negative out comes due to the use of this equipment?

What are the positives that have been observed from the use of this equipment?


He rightly put these questions up for discussion from the knowledge pool. What he got instead from some, including you, were attacks. If you're dead set against their use? OK, say so & be done w/it. Nothing positive will come from haranguing him (or me). His DZ isn't the only one to utilize audibles or digital Altis for students. The questions really weren't addressed to you in the first place.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Aug 27, 2011, 7:21 AM
Post #67 of 176 (650 views)
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Re: [PiLFy] Digital Altimeters and Audibles for students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have asked questions. You've failed repeatedly to answer them. You normally give good feedback on this board. I've respected you for that. You haven't done that here. I've found a few instructors w/poor 'tudes, Chuck. I avoid them. I choose to learn from the majority of instructors. I've found them to be open, friendly, & free w/their knowledge.

This is what the OP asked:

Have any other instructors out there been using digital altimeters and or audibles for AFF student?

What was the motivation for using these devices?

Has anyone had any negative out comes due to the use of this equipment?

What are the positives that have been observed from the use of this equipment?


He rightly put these questions up for discussion from the knowledge pool. What he got instead from some, including you, were attacks. If you're dead set against their use? OK, say so & be done w/it. Nothing positive will come from haranguing him (or me). His DZ isn't the only one to utilize audibles or digital Altis for students. The questions really weren't addressed to you in the first place.

Guess you failed to read the whole thread...

http://www.dropzone.com/...latest_reply;so=ASC;


PiLFy  (A License)

Aug 27, 2011, 7:35 AM
Post #68 of 176 (650 views)
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Re: [Abedy] Digital Altimeters and Audibles for students [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Carsten,
I remember, & like you from earlier posts. No offense taken. Hashing out ideas is one thing. Attacking them w/no substantive arguments is something altogether different. I'm aware Akers has been around a long time. He usually provides useful, if somewhat crass, contributions. He hasn't done that, here. When questioned on that, he still hasn't. He's just come back w/more insults. Let's leave that out of it, huh?

How about you, my friend? using an Audible as a hard deck alarm is a bad thing? You approve of using AADs for students, right? Why not an Audible set to scream in their ear a thousand feet higher than AAD alt (& a couple thousand feet below their pull alt)? That would be a very unobtrusive way of improving their survival odds after a screw up, no?

It takes a number of jumps to get (gradually) more aware of the combination of winds/traffic/hazards of the landing pattern puzzle, agreed? During that vulnerable 12 jump +/- period, would it not be better to have the students' heads on a swivel? It takes time & attention to discern <1K' alts w/an analog, agreed? A beep accompanied by a quick glance @their wrists would be safer in that respect, no? If they don't hear the beep @1K'? They can disregard, & go on other cues. Some will always screw up the best laid plans. For the majority of students, is this not a possible way forward? The Aussie DZ has used these devices for a couple of classes now. Although it is a small sample group, so far. The results were very promising. None of the predicted problems occurred. In fact, it has been the opposite. Further, like instruments have been used for pilots for much longer. Why would it work for pilots, but not for us? Why have the results been so promising in Oz? Why aren't the naysayers citing previous incidents from other programs that utilize Audibles? There are other programs using them. The OP was looking for their feedback when he posted this thread.


PiLFy  (A License)

Aug 27, 2011, 7:37 AM
Post #69 of 176 (645 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Digital Altimeters and Audibles for students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I have asked questions. You've failed repeatedly to answer them. You normally give good feedback on this board. I've respected you for that. You haven't done that here. I've found a few instructors w/poor 'tudes, Chuck. I avoid them. I choose to learn from the majority of instructors. I've found them to be open, friendly, & free w/their knowledge.

This is what the OP asked:

Have any other instructors out there been using digital altimeters and or audibles for AFF student?

What was the motivation for using these devices?

Has anyone had any negative out comes due to the use of this equipment?

What are the positives that have been observed from the use of this equipment?


He rightly put these questions up for discussion from the knowledge pool. What he got instead from some, including you, were attacks. If you're dead set against their use? OK, say so & be done w/it. Nothing positive will come from haranguing him (or me). His DZ isn't the only one to utilize audibles or digital Altis for students. The questions really weren't addressed to you in the first place.

Guess you failed to read the whole thread...

http://www.dropzone.com/...latest_reply;so=ASC;

I guess you conveniently forgot to see the time stamp on that post. Yeah, I saw it. It came very late in the conversation. It came after you'd attacked the OP repeatedly.


airtwardo  (D License)

Aug 27, 2011, 7:53 AM
Post #70 of 176 (645 views)
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Re: [PiLFy] Digital Altimeters and Audibles for students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yeah, I'm trying to do that, Jim (though not earnestly, I'll admit.). I already have lost an Alti once. I don't know how much longer it will take for my Mk1s to be ready for prime time. We're not there yet, though.


Think about that for a minute, I'm not trying to bang on you Kenny but what you are saying in essence is that you are instrument dependent.

Don't do that.

Altitude recognition in free-fall as well as under canopy are paramount skills you need to develop and maintain in order to be a better/safer Skydiver. They are every bit as important as knowing and practicing your EP's.

Not to put words in Chuck's mouth, but I think that's what he is saying...people become instrument dependant and don't even realize it. How can you NOT be if you are being trained that way from jump 1?!

This really isn't an IFR sport, we need to train and tune our senses to the point the instruments are used for what they really are...a back-up devise.

I may be a fossil but I also have all the new gizmos too...but I think I use them differently than you do.

My audibles are set not as 'it's time to' but instead a 'you should have already' reminder.

I've got boo-coo vids of the beep beep beep going as the canopy is in the finishing stages of deployment...if/when it doesn't work, I don't miss it.

You're an intelligent guy, if you put a priority on training those Mk.1's you will be rockin' the visual keys in 10-15 jumps...make it a real priority, it IS! Wink


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Aug 27, 2011, 8:04 AM
Post #71 of 176 (638 views)
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Re: [PiLFy] Digital Altimeters and Audibles for students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I have asked questions. You've failed repeatedly to answer them. You normally give good feedback on this board. I've respected you for that. You haven't done that here. I've found a few instructors w/poor 'tudes, Chuck. I avoid them. I choose to learn from the majority of instructors. I've found them to be open, friendly, & free w/their knowledge.

This is what the OP asked:

Have any other instructors out there been using digital altimeters and or audibles for AFF student?

What was the motivation for using these devices?

Has anyone had any negative out comes due to the use of this equipment?

What are the positives that have been observed from the use of this equipment?


He rightly put these questions up for discussion from the knowledge pool. What he got instead from some, including you, were attacks. If you're dead set against their use? OK, say so & be done w/it. Nothing positive will come from haranguing him (or me). His DZ isn't the only one to utilize audibles or digital Altis for students. The questions really weren't addressed to you in the first place.

Guess you failed to read the whole thread...

http://www.dropzone.com/...latest_reply;so=ASC;

I guess you conveniently forgot to see the time stamp on that post. Yeah, I saw it. It came very late in the conversation. It came after you'd attacked the OP repeatedly.

So now disagreeing with the OP is attacking? I'm through with you.


PiLFy  (A License)

Aug 27, 2011, 8:09 AM
Post #72 of 176 (639 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Digital Altimeters and Audibles for students [In reply to] Can't Post

Sounds like good advice, Jim. Thank You. I know I depend on instruments. I also know I should have been working harder at alt recognition. One of my points in this thread, is that Mk1 calibration takes time. I still see them better than a five-jump, AFF, terror-in-their-eyes student does. I view the newer gizmos as a possible way to help better protect them while they learn.


PiLFy  (A License)

Aug 27, 2011, 8:09 AM
Post #73 of 176 (638 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Digital Altimeters and Audibles for students [In reply to] Can't Post

Duly noted...


airtwardo  (D License)

Aug 27, 2011, 8:42 AM
Post #74 of 176 (632 views)
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Re: [PiLFy] Digital Altimeters and Audibles for students [In reply to] Can't Post

One of my points in this thread, is that Mk1 calibration takes time.
No doubt it does, and IF you teach/learn those skills starting from jump 1, you are safer overall than if as you did, put it on the back burner because of the ingrained instrument dependency.

IMO they can be a useful learning tool if used as I mentioned above, a warning that you should be doing something you are not already doing...but that's not how they are being used.

The way the OP's DZ is using them is as an indicator to perform...that makes a Pavlov Skydiver and that will come around to bite someone.

Like the radio, the devise should be used as a 'back-up' to correct errors in performance. How to actually perform those tasks needs to be covered in depth during the ground training.

Yes the use of an audible may make for easier training, and a more confident student...but the skill set in the final tally is suffering. This isn't news to those of us that have been in it for a few decades, there is only so much time an instructor can spend with each student.

Short cuts are everywhere and it's understandable to an extent. But I think in this case the short-cut will in the long run create a class of less self reliant people in the sky.



It may not be obvious today, but down the road what you have is a Skydiver that can't/won't perform the once basic tasks without reliance on battery operated instruments.

That my friend is a bad groove to slip into, much less be trained to do.


Abedy  (D 10153)

Aug 27, 2011, 9:06 AM
Post #75 of 176 (623 views)
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Re: [bart] Digital Altimeters and Audibles for students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
All devices fail I like your Idea of having the 2 as a backup but what if one of the analogs fails or reads incorrectly how will the student know which one is right??
With an audible, the student has no chance of finding out until it's obvious and thus, too late. With two altis he can figure out e.g. if one of the altis gets stuck.

Quote:
A student is no more likely to do a radical turn on the beep as they are to do a radical turn when told on the radio,
I think it's like the infamous SatNav Accidents: "The damn thing told me to turn left and so did I and rode into the river..." A radio instructor will usually consider several aspects and tell the student in a calm and flat voice to do so. The beep of an audible will sort of barge into the student's awareness and might get him started.

I won't explore further since I don't want to tell what to do on your DZ and you've got some experience with your new approach. I ack' your attention to teaching students vision and visual awareness. Seems we just have different opinions about how and what to use as back-up.


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