Forums: Skydiving: Tandem Skydiving:
Handle checks?

 

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speedy

Aug 23, 2011, 2:28 PM
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Handle checks? Can't Post

This has been posted in the German section of DZ.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZZPgKFF1BA

Does anyone here see handle checks being made?


Scrumpot  (D License)

Aug 23, 2011, 3:19 PM
Post #2 of 26 (3192 views)
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Re: [speedy] Handle checks? [In reply to] Can't Post

What scared me worse in (watching) that video, was the dude running to the AC in FRONT of the spar/strut as the plane was still actively in it's turning motion. Then, jumping up on the wheel, clearly to address the pilot through the co-pilot side window or something.

Just one slight unexpected over-rotation, or slip (or combination of the 2) and ... Pirate

To answer your question though - no... I saw no handles checks whatsoever at any time, portion or part of that video, at all.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Aug 23, 2011, 4:02 PM
Post #3 of 26 (3166 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Handle checks? [In reply to] Can't Post

 The TM is so caught up in performing and looking cool for the camera that he neglects all the basic checks he should be making.....He needs a good kick in the arse.


feuergnom  (D License)

Aug 23, 2011, 11:10 PM
Post #4 of 26 (3068 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Handle checks? [In reply to] Can't Post

and once again we've got the classic reaction from dizziedotcom: kick him, shoot him, bring tar & feathers..... hey guys it gets boring Unimpressed

pick any random tandemvideo from youtube and look for handle-checks - i dare to say in over 80 percent you won't find them either. so if you promote severe sanctions for all TI's neglecting their SOP's, you won't stop kicking for a long time and you'd have to weed out most of the instructor population Unimpressed

don't get me wrong: checking ones shit is essential in tandem business. if you elect to do hand cam well you better come up with a satisfying solution to do decent video and check handles


obelixtim  (D 84)

Aug 24, 2011, 1:25 AM
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Re: [feuergnom] Handle checks? [In reply to] Can't Post

 Oh, OK then, because 80% of TI's ignore correct procedures, that makes it all right then. I'm sure you'd be happy to allow your wife/GF/mother/sister/brother go on the front of such a TM.

Great!.

Having seen a Tandem bounce, Where the TI didn't react as quickly as he should have, which may well have prevented a bad situation from getting worse, I don't think its unreasonable to expect a TI tio carry out some BASIC, SIMPLE checks as part of his RESPONSIBILITY.

Since when is a (verbal) kick in the arse a severe sanction?.

Complacency kills. You obviously don't quite get that.


feuergnom  (D License)

Aug 24, 2011, 1:46 AM
Post #6 of 26 (3034 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Handle checks? [In reply to] Can't Post

i guess you missed this sentence:

Quote:
checking ones shit is essential in tandem business. if you elect to do hand cam well you better come up with a satisfying solution to do decent video and check handles

to make it even clearer: handle-checks before and after exit are imperative in my book.
can "we" make shure that "we" ourselves never forget about SOP's? No
Can "we" make shure every other TI has the same high standard than "we"? No

my shot: It all starts with initial training and the tandem-culture lived on each DZ. thats the discussion "we" should have IMO
or how serious you are regarding harness adjustments prior to exit like this one


(This post was edited by feuergnom on Aug 24, 2011, 1:50 AM)


DougH  (D License)

Aug 24, 2011, 5:02 AM
Post #7 of 26 (2995 views)
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Re: [feuergnom] Handle checks? [In reply to] Can't Post

That video already looked lousy, a few seconds of filming his handle checks couldn't possibly have made it any worse that it already was!


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Aug 24, 2011, 6:37 AM
Post #8 of 26 (2961 views)
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Re: [DougH] Handle checks? [In reply to] Can't Post

I recall Roger Nelson's policy at Skydive Chicago being that he would fire the TM, if he saw the jump video without handle checks being done.

I quess that is quite effective way to go.


weaverd  (C License)

Aug 24, 2011, 8:59 AM
Post #9 of 26 (2912 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] Handle checks? [In reply to] Can't Post

I hope this isint a stupid question.....but why do TI's have to do a handle check after exit ?


davelepka  (D 21448)

Aug 24, 2011, 9:18 AM
Post #10 of 26 (2900 views)
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Re: [weaverd] Handle checks? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
why do TI's have to do a handle check after exit ?

Because they have more handles than the rest of us. They have another person hooked up to their harness who may be effecting things without the TI noticing. Tandem rigs are for more complicated than a sport rig, and an out-of-sequence deployment could create for more problems and risk twice as mnay lives as one on a sport rig. On top of it all, once the drouge is set, they have nothing but time, and they might as well check them.

As to the assertion that 80% of TIs don't check handles, that's not the case where I jump. I can't recall shooting a tandem video in the last number of years that didn't involve a handle check.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Aug 24, 2011, 9:19 AM
Post #11 of 26 (2899 views)
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Re: [feuergnom] Handle checks? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
pick any random tandemvideo from youtube and look for handle-checks - i dare to say in over 80 percent you won't find them either. so if you promote severe sanctions for all TI's neglecting their SOP's, you won't stop kicking for a long time and you'd have to weed out most of the instructor population Unimpressed

Yup. And that's why the "kick him, shoot him, bring tar & feathers" goes on. And it WILL go on simply because of the reason you show in the paragraph above.
Silly how that works, eh?


weaverd  (C License)

Aug 24, 2011, 11:43 AM
Post #12 of 26 (2849 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Handle checks? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
why do TI's have to do a handle check after exit ?

Because they have more handles than the rest of us. They have another person hooked up to their harness who may be effecting things without the TI noticing. Tandem rigs are for more complicated than a sport rig, and an out-of-sequence deployment could create for more problems and risk twice as mnay lives as one on a sport rig. On top of it all, once the drouge is set, they have nothing but time, and they might as well check them.

As to the assertion that 80% of TIs don't check handles, that's not the case where I jump. I can't recall shooting a tandem video in the last number of years that didn't involve a handle check.

What are the extra handles?


obelixtim  (D 84)

Aug 24, 2011, 12:47 PM
Post #13 of 26 (2823 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] Handle checks? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Post: I recall Roger Nelson's policy at Skydive Chicago being that he would fire the TM, if he saw the jump video without handle checks being done.

I quess that is quite effective way to go.

Thats my policy as well. Guys with 10,000 odd tandem jumps or more, don't seem to have a problem with it.

But they do the checks as a matter of normal routine, not particularly because of anything I've said.

They are intelligent enough to realise the responsibility they have for someone else, but mostly because they are fairly interested in giving their own arse a better chance of survival.

Thats how it should be....


feuergnom  (D License)

Aug 24, 2011, 1:32 PM
Post #14 of 26 (2808 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Handle checks? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
pick any random tandemvideo from youtube and look for handle-checks - i dare to say in over 80 percent you won't find them either. so if you promote severe sanctions for all TI's neglecting their SOP's, you won't stop kicking for a long time and you'd have to weed out most of the instructor population Unimpressed

Yup. And that's why the "kick him, shoot him, bring tar & feathers" goes on. And it WILL go on simply because of the reason you show in the paragraph above.
Silly how that works, eh?

ok, we are on the same side. but - in my very humble and certainly limited view of things - it starts with the initial training of "TI's". I am very sure that there are I/E's out there, who take their job and the attitude of their students seriously - read who are clear that certain things like handlechecks are here for a reason. others might not hold true of these standards and who are more associated with a laissez faire kind of attitude. heck I could provide you with tons of pictures from my corner of the world showing clear examples of "well I just do it my way no matter what the book says" - but that is another can of worms not limited to the places where I jump. longtime readers of the forums will remember more than one instance where "TI's" performed stunts beyond belief.... Unimpressed so: What do I/E's do to ensure they themselves hold up to a high standard, is there anything like a "quality management/long term evaluation" for i/E's out there, who's controlling it, who's controlling the quality of TI's etc? from what I see in my corner once you've got a rating nobody ever re-evaluates your qualification ever again.
do I have a solution? no. would I want more regulation? since I am not living in the states, that question doesn't apply to me (USPA or FAA-wise) but if I were, I guess I'd still say no.

Jumping tandem is not easy so there definitly is no easy black/white answer to this Unimpressed


dks13827  (C 9293)

Aug 24, 2011, 1:49 PM
Post #15 of 26 (2798 views)
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Handle checks? [In reply to] Can't Post

Look at any 10 youtube tandems.. lots of no handle checks ! I have noticed that a lot.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Aug 24, 2011, 2:37 PM
Post #16 of 26 (2779 views)
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Re: [feuergnom] Handle checks? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
pick any random tandemvideo from youtube and look for handle-checks - i dare to say in over 80 percent you won't find them either. so if you promote severe sanctions for all TI's neglecting their SOP's, you won't stop kicking for a long time and you'd have to weed out most of the instructor population Unimpressed

Yup. And that's why the "kick him, shoot him, bring tar & feathers" goes on. And it WILL go on simply because of the reason you show in the paragraph above.
Silly how that works, eh?

ok, we are on the same side. but - in my very humble and certainly limited view of things - it starts with the initial training of "TI's". I am very sure that there are I/E's out there, who take their job and the attitude of their students seriously - read who are clear that certain things like handlechecks are here for a reason. others might not hold true of these standards and who are more associated with a laissez faire kind of attitude. heck I could provide you with tons of pictures from my corner of the world showing clear examples of "well I just do it my way no matter what the book says" - but that is another can of worms not limited to the places where I jump. longtime readers of the forums will remember more than one instance where "TI's" performed stunts beyond belief.... Unimpressed so: What do I/E's do to ensure they themselves hold up to a high standard, is there anything like a "quality management/long term evaluation" for i/E's out there, who's controlling it, who's controlling the quality of TI's etc? from what I see in my corner once you've got a rating nobody ever re-evaluates your qualification ever again.
do I have a solution? no. would I want more regulation? since I am not living in the states, that question doesn't apply to me (USPA or FAA-wise) but if I were, I guess I'd still say no.

Jumping tandem is not easy so there definitly is no easy black/white answer to this Unimpressed

We set up a system where DZ's could be audited, and every DZ goes through an audit if there is a fatality or series of incidents, automatically. Failing that, they were all required to be audited every two or three years.

The audit covered any aspect of DZ operation the auditors wanted to look at, paperwook, training, equipment, aircraft, pilots, rating holders, etc etc etc.

The auditors came from a small pool of I/E's, all very experienced jumpers. Auditing of your own operation was not allowed.

Failure to comply with any administrative conditions would usually see a period of grace given to give time to comply (usually a month). Failure of operational matters were treated slightly differently, they may be given time to comply, or have their approval to operate suspended (depending on the situation).

It wasn't treated as a way to catch DZO's out, rather it was to make sure standards were high and consistent throughout the country. All DZO's were given a checklist of what the audit would involve, so non compliance would not be viewed favourably.

Viewing of a video like this would likely see the DZO reprimanded, and his tandem operation would be given the fine tooth comb treatment. The TI's would probably be required to go through a retraining/reevaluation programme.

Because so many of these videos are posted on youtube, DZO's really have no where to hide, and a video like this would soon catch the attention of the auditors..

It all sounds a bit harsh, but surprisingly once DZO's were up to speed with what was required, they found compliance quite easy.

It had the additional benefit of showing to authorities a thorough system with records to back that up, which helped immensely when dealing with the odd officious bureaucrat from CAA or other authority, should they come poking around.

The audit system was based on ISO type auditing systems, and was very thorough.

All DZO's willingly signed up to it, because it had the advantage of having an outsider go over things, thus preventing operations becoming too insular and inward looking.

An audit typically lasted about a day, sometimes less if everything checked out OK.

It is a good system, and works well in a small country with a finite number of operations, compliance in a bigger country with multiple DZ's might present a few more problems, but the idea is sound, perhaps done at state level rather than nationally in t5he case of the US.

People quickly recognised the audits as being beneficial to everyone, rather than an imposition.


BrianM  (D 661)

Aug 24, 2011, 10:37 PM
Post #17 of 26 (2703 views)
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Re: [weaverd] Handle checks? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What are the extra handles?

Depends on the make/model/setup. I'm only familiar with the rigs I'm rated on, but in theory, the bare minimum would be one extra handle - a drogue release. I jump tandem rigs with a total of 6 handles:

- drogue
- drogue release
- second drogue release
- cutaway
- reserve
- second reserve handle on RSL


feuergnom  (D License)

Aug 25, 2011, 12:48 AM
Post #18 of 26 (2686 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Handle checks? [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks for explaining, thats definitly some food for thought Smile


obelixtim  (D 84)

Aug 25, 2011, 5:20 AM
Post #19 of 26 (2658 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Handle checks? [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Quote:
It had the additional benefit of showing to authorities a thorough system with records to back that up, which helped immensely when dealing with the odd officious bureaucrat from CAA or other authority, should they come poking around.

Just on that point, I attended a coroners court hearing after a fatality, and at the end of proceedings, the coroner made a point of commenting how impressed he was with our standards of checks and recording systems, saying how it made his job a lot easier when researching the background to the incident, and how he could see the best possible efforts were in place to protect everyone involved.

He went on to say it was a model of how organisations such as ours dealing with adventure activities and the public should be run.

An endorsement like that from a senior legal entity is not only very satisfying, it also adds legitimacy to what we do, especially when dealing with aforementioned bureaucratic nitpickers who sometimes have an agenda all of their own, and sometimes work outside their remit.

It is sometimes very difficult to fight these idiots, and if they get their teeth into some perceived transgression they can make life difficult for everyone.

They quite often curl up when you can show them that an authority much higher than them has complimented our system.....

It all makes life so much easier (like anything). when you are prepared for all or most eventualities.


normiss  (D 28356)

Aug 25, 2011, 11:19 AM
Post #20 of 26 (2613 views)
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Re: [feuergnom] Handle checks? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
pick any random tandemvideo from youtube and look for handle-checks - i dare to say in over 80 percent you won't find them either.

Videot needs to get there quicker. Tongue
While I do prefer to have the handle check on video, I don't wait to have a videot in front of me to perform one.


DougH  (D License)

Aug 25, 2011, 12:05 PM
Post #21 of 26 (2600 views)
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Re: [normiss] Handle checks? [In reply to] Can't Post

How do you explain the HandiCam videos with no handle checks? Creative editing? The hand needs to get there quicker?


normiss  (D 28356)

Aug 25, 2011, 12:30 PM
Post #22 of 26 (2590 views)
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Re: [DougH] Handle checks? [In reply to] Can't Post

I wasn't referring to the original video - hence the "quote" bracketing.

I very much dislike handi-cam.
This is but one reason.
Wink


speedy

Aug 25, 2011, 2:34 PM
Post #23 of 26 (2556 views)
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Re: [normiss] Handle checks? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
pick any random tandemvideo from youtube and look for handle-checks - i dare to say in over 80 percent you won't find them either.

Videot needs to get there quicker. Tongue
While I do prefer to have the handle check on video, I don't wait to have a videot in front of me to perform one.
err I don't understand that one. As a vidiot I am never "away" from the tandem. If you don't see a handle check on my tandem video it's because the wasn't one. If the TM has to wait until the vidiot is there, fire the vidiot.

As for editing out handle checks with handcam videos, I have heard/read somewhere that a TM does that.

Edit: as an after thought, it could be that the video is behind you just after exit and is starting the fly around you for the shot. But you can still see a handle check.


(This post was edited by speedy on Aug 25, 2011, 2:40 PM)


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Aug 26, 2011, 12:42 PM
Post #24 of 26 (2424 views)
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Re: [DougH] Handle checks? [In reply to] Can't Post

"
In reply to:
How do you explain the HandiCam videos with no handle checks? ....
"

........................................................................

Lazy!

Videoing the student from a variety of angles is all part of the artisitc process of making the video entertaining and holding the audience.

It is easy to incorporate handles checks into creative, artistic handi-cam video.
None of the right hand checks make any difference to the quality of the video.
The only part of a (Strong) video - that is changed - is checking the reserve ripcord. Most students do not notice that wiggle. If you are creative, you can even include the drogue (for a couple of seconds) as you slide your left thumb into the reserve ripcord handle.

When jumping a Sigma/Vector you might be able to include a few seconds of the student's legs, while you check the left-hand drogue release. That allows you to comfirm that the student remembered the "banana" position - as taught in ground school.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Aug 27, 2011, 2:25 PM
Post #25 of 26 (2373 views)
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Re: [weaverd] Handle checks? [In reply to] Can't Post

"
In reply to:
... why do TI's have to do a handle check after exit ?
"

.........................................................................

Because handles - on first generation - tandems were CRUDE!
They often got knocked loose while moving towards the door, or got knocked loose during exit.
I hate tell you how many dozen times, I got half-way through a handles check - on a first generation Strong Tandem - only to find drogue release handle flopping in the breeze. I said to myself: "I'll just keep my right hand on this handle while I glance at all the other handles."
Over time, all the tandem manufacturers gradually worked the bugs out of their systems, but they changed their attitudes to make handles checks mandatory, BECAUSE they are a good way to engrave habits.
Because handles checks require coordinating dozens of small muscles, they need to be repeated hundreds of times before they get engraved in long-term memory.
You need something like 10,000 repetitions to master any complex process, so the more often you repeat a process (before boarding, during hook-up, after exit, after opening, etc.) the sooner it will get burned into longer-term memory.


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