Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Canopy Relative Work:
Ever heard of a DZ that banned CRW??

 


crotalus01  (B 28932)

Aug 19, 2011, 10:56 PM
Post #1 of 16 (2000 views)
Shortcut
Ever heard of a DZ that banned CRW?? Can't Post

Just curious - I am going on a trip out of town in October and emailed the closest DZ to where I am headed. I asked if there were any CRW dogs jumping there and expressed an interest in doing a CRW jump - the DZO replied that there had been a CRW fatality there last year and he has since banned CRW from his DZ Unsure!
Anyone ever heard of a non-CRW DZ? I have seen and heard of DZs that ban hook turns, but never one that specifically banned CRW. Seems a bit extreme....thoughts?


(This post was edited by crotalus01 on Aug 19, 2011, 10:57 PM)


topdocker  (D 12018)

Aug 19, 2011, 11:31 PM
Post #2 of 16 (1964 views)
Shortcut
Re: [crotalus01] Ever heard of a DZ that banned CRW?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I've heard of it. It's rare, usually because of airspace concerns, not a fatality.

If you PM me, I'd love to talk to the DZO and find out the scoop on this.

top


buff  (D 30567)

Aug 20, 2011, 11:07 AM
Post #3 of 16 (1929 views)
Shortcut
Re: [topdocker] Ever heard of a DZ that banned CRW?? [In reply to] Can't Post

interesting, I didn't realize that a DZO had authority to regulate airspace or activities therein. i guess the DZO can deny you lift or landing rights but banning CReW would fall to the FAA would it not?


TVPB  (F 666)

Aug 21, 2011, 4:27 AM
Post #4 of 16 (1874 views)
Shortcut
Re: [buff] Ever heard of a DZ that banned CRW?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
interesting, I didn't realize that a DZO had authority to regulate airspace or activities therein. i guess the DZO can deny you lift or landing rights but banning CReW would fall to the FAA would it not?

It's more a case of, you own the DZ, you can do whatever the hell you like there (within the rules of FAA / USPA / ETC).

There are quite a few drop zones around that are either against CRW or not very cooperative with CRW jumpers.


Electronaut  (C 38872)

Aug 21, 2011, 8:54 AM
Post #5 of 16 (1851 views)
Shortcut
Re: [buff] Ever heard of a DZ that banned CRW?? [In reply to] Can't Post

See wingsuit banning at more than one dz. They own the plane they can do what they want.


captain1976  (D 7183)

Aug 21, 2011, 7:26 PM
Post #6 of 16 (1809 views)
Shortcut
Re: [crotalus01] Ever heard of a DZ that banned CRW?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
the DZO replied that there had been a CRW fatality there last year and he has since banned CRW from his DZ Unsure!

The DZO sounds like an idiot. Suppose he would probably ban belly flyers if one went in too!


sedwick  (C 36152)

Aug 22, 2011, 4:49 AM
Post #7 of 16 (1770 views)
Shortcut
Re: [crotalus01] Ever heard of a DZ that banned CRW?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I would point out that this is the same mentality that keeps us from opening dropzones at several locations throughout the US.

I don't see how a DZO can make an argument against CRW. If skydivers have a right to the airspace then it should be afforded to all skydivers, including CRW.

If it were me i'd have a discussion with the DZO to try to get it resolved. If that didn't work i'd start writting letters to USPA regional directors and national directors especially those involved in the Airport Access Defense Fund.

This may make you persona non grata at that dropzone but it sounds like you weren't going to be able to do CRW at that DZ anyway. It will be beneficial for all skydivers everywhere however.

If reason doesn't work, raise a stink.


stratostar  (Student)

Aug 22, 2011, 5:44 AM
Post #8 of 16 (1757 views)
Shortcut
Re: [sedwick] Ever heard of a DZ that banned CRW?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I would point out that this is the same mentality that keeps us from opening dropzones at several locations throughout the US.

No it's not keeping anyone for opening anything, however it hurts the process and even more so when those displaying the attitude are DZO's who show up at city commission hearings to bash the sport & other skydiving centers who are trying to open in the same area as the others.

Quote:
If it were me i'd have a discussion with the DZO to try to get it resolved.

You have every right to do that and it maybe helpful or you might get told to fuck off and get the hell out of his office an or off his dropzone

Quote:
If that didn't work i'd start writting letters to USPA regional directors and national directors especially those involved in the Airport Access Defense Fund.

Really? you would do that, WTF makes you think you or the USPA have any say over what a DZO allows to take place in, on, over the dropzone they run?

If you don't like it then go start your own dropzone and do what the fuck you want, how you want, when you want and stop trying butt your nose into a private business.

And as for contacting: especially those involved in the Airport Access Defense Fund. You along with a great deal of people in this sport need to get your head out of your ass start to read and understand just how the AAD fund works.... WTF makes you think banning CREW at a DZ has anything to do with taking to the AAD fund people @ USPA? Got news for you there Alice!

http://www.uspa.org/...ce-Defense-Fund.aspx

Quote:
More and more, USPA members rely on USPA to preserve public airports and airways for skydiving. Growing aviation needs, difficult economic conditions, and national security interests continuously present challenges for a small group like skydivers to maintain access.

In 1991, USPA established the Airport Access and Defense Fund (AAD Fund) to further the efforts of the association and its members to maintain or gain equal access to airspace and federally funded airports in the U.S.The funds may also be used by the association in efforts to prevent or remove government actions or taxation that affect skydiving and its related activities. Limited financial assistance may be provided to offset a portion of a member's legal expenses in a qualifying concern.


sedwick  (C 36152)

Aug 23, 2011, 7:30 AM
Post #9 of 16 (1678 views)
Shortcut
Re: [stratostar] Ever heard of a DZ that banned CRW?? [In reply to] Can't Post

CRW (skydiving) is too dangerous and therefore not a legitimate skydiving (aviation) activity.

CRW (skydiving) is dangerous. you know this because they had a fatality over at another dropzone (airport) when they allowed CRW (skydiving).

we can't maintain a safe dropzone (airport) if we allow CRW (skydiving) here.

who are you to tell a DZO (airport manager or town) what to allow to take place over their dropzone (airport) that they run?


you see what i'm doing there? yes. it is in fact exactly the same mentality.



yes my first approach would be to talk to the DZO about their concerns. perhaps the only exposure they've had to CRW lately is a couple of yahoos who try to do CRW with no training or inappropriate gear. Perhaps their exposure is people sucking downplanes through traffic and breaking off at 150 feet. these issues can and should be addressed for the safety of all involved but that doesn't mean they can't be addressed. i would hope that the DZO would be capable of having a reasonable and civil discussion involving any activity at their dropzone. i might very well be told to fuck off but i would certainly hope that someone running a customer service oriented business would find more tactful ways to express their disagreement with my thoughts.

i am not advocating the use of AAD Fund money in this discussion. those who have had to deal with ignorant (note i'm not using the word stupid) town and airport managers would know which approaches work well to educate those people. they know how to counter false arguments commonly used to claim that a legitimate activity can't be done safely. there's nothing wrong with putting limitations like "no crw under 2000 feet", "no downplanes through traffic", or other such conditions. completely banning CRW because you don't feel it can be done safely is a step too far in my opinion. so don't get your panties in a bunch there nancy. i know what the AAD Fund is for.

the USPA is an advocate group for the members. it is not there to protect the DZOs. that is a side benefit because it ultimately helps the membership. it's a skydiver association not a DZO association. as an advocacy group, if they need to talk to a DZO in order to advocate for their membership that's exactly what they should do just like they step in and talk to town managers, airport managers, members of congress, and FAA regulators. if you read the quote that you put in bold "USPA members rely on USPA to preserve public airports and airways for skydiving." so yes. i'm saying that we, as USPA members should rely on the USPA to help us preserve public airways for skydiving. thanks for helping make my point.

if you don't have any problem with a DZO banning CRW because it's a private business how would you feel about a DZO being denied fuel at the airport because the town sold the fuel station to a private company? who are you to tell a private company who they can and can't do business with? if you can't see that banning CRW is denying use to airways for skydiving i'm not sure how to explain it to you really.


Fast  (D 28237)

Aug 23, 2011, 1:57 PM
Post #10 of 16 (1638 views)
Shortcut
Re: [sedwick] Ever heard of a DZ that banned CRW?? [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a DZO's place to allow or not allow whatever they want out of their plane. You want to do CRW at an airport where the DZO doesn't like CRW, get a plane and convince the airport manager to let you jump there.

That's about your only option. For what it's worth, I think banning CRW is silly. Come jump at our DZ we have lots of CRW people.


(This post was edited by Fast on Aug 23, 2011, 1:58 PM)


sedwick  (C 36152)

Aug 23, 2011, 2:18 PM
Post #11 of 16 (1632 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Fast] Ever heard of a DZ that banned CRW?? [In reply to] Can't Post

i agree that it's silly. it's also worth having a discussion about why they feel that way.

sure i'll come to your dz and do some crw. how about the weekend of sept 9-11? think i'll find any crw dogs hanging around? ;)


jumpsalot-2  (D 33093)

Aug 23, 2011, 8:04 PM
Post #12 of 16 (1589 views)
Shortcut
Re: [crotalus01] Ever heard of a DZ that banned CRW?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hmmmm.......is it safer to let a lot of people jump out of a plane, spread out over a distance, over neighborhoods. Falling at speeds from 110 - 200 + mph, and deploying a parachute when they see fit, above 2000', or so..........or is it safer to let a few people jump from a plane, who will quickly deploy their parachutes,at a somewhat high altitude, and who are more highly skilled, and conservative canopy pilots, than most canopy pilots.........hmmmm.......Unsure


stratostar  (Student)

Aug 23, 2011, 8:08 PM
Post #13 of 16 (1585 views)
Shortcut
Re: [sedwick] Ever heard of a DZ that banned CRW?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
CRW (skydiving) is too dangerous and therefore not a legitimate skydiving (aviation) activity.

Won't fly with the FAA if it's federal funded airport, if it is private airport or non funded your screwed.

Quote:
CRW (skydiving) is dangerous. you know this because they had a fatality over at another dropzone (airport) when they allowed CRW (skydiving).

Won't fly with the FAA if it's federal funded airport, if it is private airport or non funded your screwed.

Quote:
we can't maintain a safe dropzone (airport) if we allow CRW (skydiving) here.

Won't fly with the FAA if it's federal funded airport, if it is private airport or non funded your screwed.

Quote:
who are you to tell a DZO (airport manager or town) what to allow to take place over their dropzone (airport) that they run?

Won't fly with the FAA if it's federal funded airport, it private airport or non funded your screwed.

Quote:
you see what i'm doing there? yes. it is in fact exactly the same mentality.

Yes and failing to grasp a great deal in how the FAA & USPA work.

Clearly you fail to understand the AAD fund and it's process to get it or you wouldn't be making the comments you had made about it and then try to back peddle and say you didn't say to use the funds in this case.... while yes you never say "get money"

Quote:
If it were me i'd have a discussion with the DZO to try to get it resolved. If that didn't work i'd start writting letters to USPA regional directors and national directors especially those involved in the Airport Access Defense Fund.

Wtf else would you be contacting them for then if not to request money, they sure as hell are not the folks to advocate for you to a DZO or any other party then USPA, because there is no access issue to use the airport or the airspace above it, you are being told you can't do those jumps at a private owned skydiving business.

Quote:
"USPA members rely on USPA to preserve public airports and airways for skydiving." so yes. i'm saying that we, as USPA members should rely on the USPA to help us preserve public airways for skydiving. thanks for helping make my point.

It dose not make your point, for one thing those airways and that airport are already open for your use, even to do CREW of you like.... you just can't jump out of SKC's plane to do it or have anything to do with his business, you are free however to contract your own aircraft, pilot & file your own notam as well as get permission per 105.23b to land on the airport property and then conduct all the CREW jumps you wnat on that very airport in that very airspace and there is not a goddamn thing USPA can do to help you other then ask Mr. Hall real nice to allow CREW there, it's his dropzone to run as he see fit CREW or no CREW it's none of your business nor your place to tell him other wise, it's a free country and your welcome to try it.

Quote:
if you don't have any problem with a DZO banning CRW because it's a private business

At no time did I say it was not a dickhead thing to do, that DZO has a reputation as being some what of a dickhead, depending on who your talking to, I don't know one way or the other if he is a dickhead or not, regardless of his dickheadedness or no dickheadedness.... I fully support his right to run his USPA GM DZ as he sees fit. If that means you can't jump CREW there, well tough shit then, you can't jump CREW there.

Here is a news flash for you, that same DZO also has a rule in place that in effect bans the use of my round parachutes because he demands all gear have computer AAD installed to jump there.... guess I better call the USPA and get them to issues me some AAD funding because I'm being denied access to the oairspace and airport and have my RD and some ND's call him up and set him right goddamn it!!!Crazy

Quote:
how would you feel about a DZO being denied fuel at the airport because the town sold the fuel station to a private company? who are you to tell a private company who they can and can't do business with?

Is this a federal funded airport and that private company is acting as FBO? or are we talking a private or non federal funded airport? Because if it's funded there are avenues to solve that problem within the FAA airport compliance. If it's a non funded or private airport, well your fucked then and better go get you a fuel truck and quit your bitchin about it already!


Quote:
if you can't see that banning CRW is denying use to airways for skydiving i'm not sure how to explain it to you really.

And if you can seem to understand a DZO having the right to ban any type of skydiving at their place of business is in fact NOT denying you use of the airways for skydiving then I don't really how to explain it to you other to say maybe you spend some time learning more about how the USPA AAD funding & USPA government relations office is all about and how, he: Randy Ottinger, is your advocate to the FAA, local, state & DZO's to keep skydivers skydiving. Your talking a lot of fluff and based on your posts it's clear you know little on the subject matter at hand.


(This post was edited by stratostar on Aug 23, 2011, 8:14 PM)


crotalus01  (B 28932)

Aug 25, 2011, 10:47 PM
Post #14 of 16 (1436 views)
Shortcut
Re: [stratostar] Ever heard of a DZ that banned CRW?? [In reply to] Can't Post

WOW...
First of all I never even considered asking USPA or ANYONE for that matter to intervene - it is their DZ and they can choose to ban any form of skydiving they choose to.
Second, I never intended to "out" the DZ or DZO , nor to give them a bad or controversial name with the CRW dogs on here (or with any other persons).
Third, after talking to a friend who was present at and saw this fatality, I really understand WHY the DZO chose to ban CRW. While I don't like it and personally I feel it is an overreaction, I do understand. And as mentioned above it is his DZ and he can put whatever rules he wants in place.
I still plan on doing a couple of jumps when I am there this October. I will just make them RW instead of CRW - no big deal. I was just wondering if it was somewhat common for DZs to ban a particular form of skydiving. It appears that swooping is Public Enemy Number One when it comes to banning.
And just for the record, I have heard NOTHING but GOOD things about this DZ and DZO from my friends. I am really looking forward to getting some jumps in while I am in the area :)


Fast  (D 28237)

Aug 26, 2011, 8:00 AM
Post #15 of 16 (1410 views)
Shortcut
Re: [sedwick] Ever heard of a DZ that banned CRW?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
i agree that it's silly. it's also worth having a discussion about why they feel that way.

sure i'll come to your dz and do some crw. how about the weekend of sept 9-11? think i'll find any crw dogs hanging around? ;)

See ya there!


sedwick  (C 36152)

Aug 26, 2011, 8:13 AM
Post #16 of 16 (1410 views)
Shortcut
Re: [crotalus01] Ever heard of a DZ that banned CRW?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I wasn't speaking to any specific DZ or DZO. I have no relationship or knowledge of the places or people in the above mentioned post.

My only point was if you encounter a DZO that is against CRW, talk to them and find out why. If you need help and advice on how to counter some of the arguments you might encounter, speak to the people who have similar experiences.

I forgot that there's no room for civil discussion about differences of opinions when dealing with the all mighty all knowing DZOs or dz.com posters. my apologies to all.

feel free to continue the bashing and most importantly the advice to people who have to deal with such situations in the future. i suppose suck it up and accept it without question is advice.

enjoy the thread and see you in the air.



Forums : Skydiving Disciplines : Canopy Relative Work

 


Search for (options)