Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
stowless D-Bag

 


fireater34  (B 35777)

Aug 12, 2011, 7:55 AM
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stowless D-Bag Can't Post

Not sure if calling it the right thing or not. But there are D-bags that use just rubber bands to close the bag and then there is a pouch on the side of the D-bag to free stow your lines. Anyone know if they have those for mirage containers and if so where can you get them?


stayhigh  (F 111)

Aug 12, 2011, 8:40 AM
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Re: [fireater34] stowless D-Bag [In reply to] Can't Post

I use vector v306 stowless for the mirage MT size and works great.

What size is your mirage??.

I also use vector v306 bag for the infinity i-22sn.

Vector makes the best semi stowless bag imo


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Aug 12, 2011, 2:18 PM
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Re: [fireater34] stowless D-Bag [In reply to] Can't Post

I have more than 700 jumps on those bags and love them.

UPT Vector makes them. If you measure your current bag size they can find one that's close which will work.

You can pm me if you like, I'm a dealer for them and can help, or talk to your local dealer.


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Aug 15, 2011, 9:47 AM
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Re: [fireater34] stowless D-Bag [In reply to] Can't Post

I cut and paisted this question from another thread and moved it here to answer it because I did not want to have the moderator tell me this was off topic in the other thread.
************************************
Anyone have any info, or just ideas (qualified ideas, though... :) about a semi stow less d bag (UPT) reducing the chances of a bag lock?

Im asking because I recently started wing suiting, and while any mal is undesirable, im trying to pay particular attention to preventing anything that gets stuck before the riser covers open, because unless im stood up (and even if I am) reaching back there to clear anything would be difficult without pulling another handle or two while free falling at low altitude with a wing suit on and a main (likely still in the bag if the riser covers are still closed) in tow. I can reach my emergency handles just fine, but a high speed mal that needs clearing by reaching back at at or below opening altitude... that would suck on a wing suit (and off it).

thanks!
****************************************

I first started jumping the semi-stowless bag from UPT prior to them going into production because the designer wanted his design to be field tested using mostly an everyday jumper with what he thought would be typical skydives and pack jobs.

I make 325-350 jumps each year. Roughly 1/3 are camera jumps filming tandems. The rest are belly jumps as 4 and 8 way training, competing, coaching and FS organizing at boogies and events.

I make use of packers for about 275-300 of my jumps (one of the reasons for the designer to give me a proto type of his bag).

I now have more than 700 jumps on the semi-stowless bags using Katana 120s and Velocity 103s.

I have zero jumps (that means none) on wingsuits. So my opinion is based on my personal experiences and my general knowledge of skydiving and deployment sequences.

I have nothing but good things to say about the semi-stowless bag. It is essentially set up the same as a reserve bag except it uses a flap with tuck tabs for figure eighting the lines instead of sliding them down into a pouch.

This allows the packer to see what the lines look like as they are being figure eighted. A good thing IMO.

As recommended by the designer I use large rubber bands for the two locking stows and double wrap them around no more than 1 1/2 inch of line bite (usually a bit smaller).

Some people will tell you double wrapping is not a good idea and may cause bag lock. This is a myth (assuming the use of large bands and the proper maintance of your pilot chute and kill line length).

I've been double wrapping large bands for more than a decade on all my stows (locking stows included) even before the semi-stowless bag).

I love the openings of the semi-stowless bag. I've had mostly very controlled on heading openings. Any off heading openings (90-120 degrees) usually happen on my pack jobs because I've been told I sometimes pack a bit hastily. Thank God for packers.

The bag does allow you to get to line stretch quicker and cleaner than a conventional bag. I like this because I believe that the majority of line twists start and are caused before the canopy comes out of the bag.

Most jumpers replace the rubber bands only when they break or are extremely close to breaking. How many times have you wrapped a band around a line bite thinking "come on don't break..... just hold for one more jump".

This means that our bands are generating varying levels of force on our line bites. Some hold better and longer than others due to better (newer) strength.

I believe the single wrapping of line bites sometimes allow the lines to deploy out of sequence allowing one or more lines to sneak out early and wrap around another line bite which can and has caused bag locks. And I believe too much line bite helps cause line twists and out of sequence line deployment which can also cause line twists and bag lock.

I've seen footage of quite a few opening sequences using high speed cameras. Which means you can slow the footage down by roughly 2/3 of a normal video camera slow motion. The footage is quite enlightening. I think most people would be shocked to see how much bag dance and out of sequence line deployment is actually going on above our heads.

Now, this doesn't mean that it happens all the time but it does happen pretty regularly. It also does not mean that it couldn't happen with the semi-stowless bag but the design is such, and testing has proven, that bag dance and out of sequence line deployment is dramatically reduced to almost nothing.

I like my lines to come out quickly and cleanly (like a reserve) so my canopy can hit the air with the greatest chance of an on heading deployment from the bag.

After that, it's a matter of how well you packed and placed the canopy in the bag, your body position during deployment and the design and wing loading of the canopy.

All of this can and almost certainly will be debated by those who are nay sayers. And I believe that healthy, sensible, civil debate is good and necessary for further development of ideas in our sport and gear. And I welcome the debate by those who have actually given some rational and original intillectual thought to this subject.

Of course this is just my humble opinion.


(This post was edited by Skydivesg on Aug 15, 2011, 9:53 AM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Aug 15, 2011, 9:56 AM
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Re: [Skydivesg] stowless D-Bag [In reply to] Can't Post

And I welcome the debate by those who have actually given some rational and original intillectual thought to this subject.

In reply to:

I've seen a couple in use and kind of like the idea...my question~ have you noticed any wear on the lines or pocket?


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Aug 15, 2011, 10:12 AM
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Re: [airtwardo] stowless D-Bag [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And I welcome the debate by those who have actually given some rational and original intillectual thought to this subject.

In reply to:

I've seen a couple in use and kind of like the idea...my question~ have you noticed any wear on the lines or pocket?

That's a pretty typical question and concern.

I have not seen any difference nor has my rigger who just started using them for himself this year.

The designer added the cotton to the mouth of the flap after some concern about this very subject in the early stages of development and it seems to have taken care of any additional friction wear.

And to my surprise, the cotton really shows no wear either.


theonlyski  (D License)

Aug 15, 2011, 10:36 AM
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Re: [Skydivesg] stowless D-Bag [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
And I welcome the debate by those who have actually given some rational and original intillectual thought to this subject.

In reply to:

I've seen a couple in use and kind of like the idea...my question~ have you noticed any wear on the lines or pocket?

That's a pretty typical question and concern.

I have not seen any difference nor has my rigger who just started using them for himself this year.

The designer added the cotton to the mouth of the flap after some concern about this very subject in the early stages of development and it seems to have taken care of any additional friction wear.

And to my surprise, the cotton really shows no wear either.

I thought that was Kevlar?

Either way, with only 150ish jumps on mine, I haven't seen any wear on the flap, bag or lines. Time will tell!


miconar  (D 1084)

Aug 15, 2011, 10:38 AM
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Re: [Skydivesg] stowless D-Bag [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you so much Skydivesg :-) very enlightening and a good read. Thank you for moving my question here too, much more appropriate, should have done it myself.

Any other thoughts on the subject more then welcome.


ghost47  (D License)

Aug 15, 2011, 11:17 AM
Post #9 of 25 (6116 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] stowless D-Bag [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The bag does allow you to get to line stretch quicker and cleaner than a conventional bag. I like this because I believe that the majority of line twists start and are caused before the canopy comes out of the bag.
Have you felt any difference in whether the opening was harder or softer? Or has it been the same?


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Aug 15, 2011, 11:28 AM
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Re: [theonlyski] stowless D-Bag [In reply to] Can't Post


I thought that was Kevlar?

Either way, with only 150ish jumps on mine, I haven't seen any wear on the flap, bag or lines. Time will tell!
It's definetly cotton.

Kevlar is a synthetic which gets a hard edge to it when it heats up, like cutting it with a hot knife. It would then cause abrasion to the lines.

Cotton does not melt when heated up (you can't cleanly cut cotton with a hot knife) and so it stays soft and does not give any additional abrasion.


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Aug 15, 2011, 11:44 AM
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Re: [ghost47] stowless D-Bag [In reply to] Can't Post

Have you felt any difference in whether the opening was harder or softer? Or has it been the same?
As I mentioned earlier, you do get to line stretch quicker but it does not cause faster or harder openings. The openings are controlled by the slider and the packing (and canopy design).

If a person gets a hard opening it's usually because the slider was not well controlled during the packing and bagging process. There can be other factors but it's almost always the slider.

The semi-stowless bag does not affect the hardness or softness of the openings. It only affects the speed to line stretch which I like. It also allows the lines to play out in a more orderly fashion.

We must remember, we only use rubber bands to keep the lines in place until they are needed and then to allow them to play out in a relatively orderly fashion in what is otherwise a fairly chaotic couple of seconds. But those bands can and do create other issues as I mentioned above.

The semi-stowless bag does exactly the same thing but simply allows the lines to play out more consistenly.


(This post was edited by Skydivesg on Aug 15, 2011, 2:03 PM)


luis  (D License)

Aug 15, 2011, 12:56 PM
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Re: [Skydivesg] stowless D-Bag [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
[As I mentioned earlier, you do get to line stretch quicker but it does not cause faster or harder openings.

another new convert here!
I switched to semi-stowless on my wingsuit rig (Vampire3+safire129) some 40-50 jumps ago. The openings are better. Not dramatically better (were OK before as well), but more on heading and feels more controlled.
In fact, I ordered another one for my swooping rig (Velo90). Again, not that I expect huge improvement over something that works ok already - but the design idea in general makes a lot of sense to me. ...that, and some spare cash burning a hole in my pocket Smile


pungdjevel

Aug 15, 2011, 1:21 PM
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Re: [Skydivesg] stowless D-Bag [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you know if they ever tested a safety stow (like the one on a reserve freebag) instead of the two locking stows?


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Aug 15, 2011, 1:59 PM
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Re: [pungdjevel] stowless D-Bag [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry. No. I don't.

I do know he tried completely stowless. Using more tuck tabs and finger tabs.

It worked but it needed more care during the line stow process.

Something that is not good for a lot of the jumpers out there.


theonlyski  (D License)

Aug 15, 2011, 7:06 PM
Post #15 of 25 (5971 views)
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Re: [pungdjevel] stowless D-Bag [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Do you know if they ever tested a safety stow (like the one on a reserve freebag) instead of the two locking stows?

I would think they would've chosen the rubber bands over the safety stows because rubber bands are freaking everywhere, you don't have to special order them, or find a rigger to make them.


skyflyscott

Dec 28, 2012, 11:55 AM
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stowless D-Bag [In reply to] Can't Post

I have been interested in what I have recently seen regarding the UPT Stowless D-bag. I have a complete Aerodyne rig and never had any issues with openings etc..

Do you find using this bag any quicker or easier for packing?

Do you know if this bag can be incorporated into the Aerodyne setup? Also UPT is currently closed for the holiday so does anyone know how much it would be to order and also if my chute is a Pilot188 what size bag would I be looking for?

Any and all comments regarding this bag are welcome.

Thanks!
S.


theonlyski  (D License)

Dec 28, 2012, 12:28 PM
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Re: [skyflyscott] stowless D-Bag [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Do you find using this bag any quicker or easier for packing?

It is quicker only for stowing the lines. Everything else about your pack job will not be effected. (Except replacing all the broken rubber bands as there are only 2 on most designs)

In reply to:
Do you know if this bag can be incorporated into the Aerodyne setup?

I would think it's probably going to be a V350 bag, however I suggest calling UPT and talking to them with your current container information (Icon I? size) and they will help you out with getting the right one. There should be no issues using this bag in your container.


In reply to:
Also UPT is currently closed for the holiday so does anyone know how much it would be to order and also if my chute is a Pilot188 what size bag would I be looking for?

To order it, I believe is $120 (plus tax and shipping)


(This post was edited by theonlyski on Dec 28, 2012, 12:29 PM)


texascrw  (D 18006)

Dec 28, 2012, 12:29 PM
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Re: [skyflyscott] stowless D-Bag [In reply to] Can't Post

I use two of the UPT semi-stowless bags and have been very happy with them. And one is on a Pilot, but not the same size as yours. The cost when I bought the last one a few months ago was around $135 including shipping. To find the correct size for your canopy, measure the bag you are presently using. They will match the dimensions as close as possible. The packers at my dz say it is easier to pack. Mike McGuire at UPT is who you want to talk to when they open back up. Good luck.


firemedic  (D 29776)

Dec 28, 2012, 6:29 PM
Post #19 of 25 (5038 views)
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Re: [skyflyscott] stowless D-Bag [In reply to] Can't Post

Any and all comments regarding this bag are welcome.

Thanks!
S.
Call UPT and speak with Mike Maguire. He was able to hook me up with the correct size bag and I am very pleased with it.


RMURRAY

Dec 28, 2012, 7:23 PM
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Re: [firemedic] stowless D-Bag [In reply to] Can't Post

what is the problem with a conventional d bag?


(This post was edited by RMURRAY on Dec 28, 2012, 7:23 PM)


skyflyscott

Dec 28, 2012, 9:18 PM
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Re: [RMURRAY] stowless D-Bag [In reply to] Can't Post

No problem with the Aerodyne bag. It opens well and works as it should, I just like the idea of no more rubber bands etc.. Sometimes when stowing the first couple the lines sometimes bunch up a little and I find myself fixing them. I am a very "perfect" packer so to speak I like to have everything just right.


koppel  (F License)

Dec 28, 2012, 9:29 PM
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Re: [fireater34] stowless D-Bag [In reply to] Can't Post

attached is the AXE by Downward Trend
Attachments: AXE.pdf (129 KB)


firemedic  (D 29776)

Dec 29, 2012, 12:51 PM
Post #23 of 25 (4847 views)
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Re: [RMURRAY] stowless D-Bag [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
what is the problem with a conventional d bag?

None, per se. I just like the simplicity of the semi stowless. For me, I get quicker cleaner openings with one and its simpler to pack.


RMURRAY

Dec 29, 2012, 1:38 PM
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Re: [firemedic] stowless D-Bag [In reply to] Can't Post

quicker and cleaner?...no it is just different thats all. does PD or NZ aerosports endorse? UPT does not count - they sell them.


(This post was edited by RMURRAY on Dec 29, 2012, 1:41 PM)


firemedic  (D 29776)

Dec 29, 2012, 2:04 PM
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Re: [RMURRAY] stowless D-Bag [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
quicker and cleaner?...no it is just different thats all. does PD or NZ aerosports endorse? UPT does not count - they sell them.


I didn't say YOUR openings were quicker and cleaner. I said MY openings were quicker and cleaner. But yes, I do agree with you that they are different.


(This post was edited by firemedic on Dec 29, 2012, 2:07 PM)



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