Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
A word for the pilots...

 


flymissionary  (Student)

Jul 21, 2011, 11:02 AM
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A word for the pilots... Can't Post

Hey guys...I'm looking at possibly getting a job towing some skydivers out of a 206...I've got about 9 actual jumps myself so I have very LIMITED skydiving experience. However...do you guys have any tips that might be able to help out the pilot do a better job?


JohnRich  (D License)

Jul 21, 2011, 11:30 AM
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Re: [flymissionary] A word for the pilots... [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you mean "throwing" skydivers out of a C206?

What is your experience as a pilot?


Andy9o8  (D License)

Jul 21, 2011, 1:04 PM
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Re: [JohnRich] A word for the pilots... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Do you mean "throwing" skydivers out of a C206?

Unless he really did mean "towing", as he spelled it. That's even scarier.


captain1976  (D 7183)

Jul 21, 2011, 1:19 PM
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Re: [flymissionary] A word for the pilots... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hey guys...I'm looking at possibly getting a job towing some skydivers out of a 206...I've got about 9 actual jumps myself so I have very LIMITED skydiving experience. However...do you guys have any tips that might be able to help out the pilot do a better job?

Yes, I have some advise. First, wear a parachute. You certainly know how to use one and emergencies come real fast. Don't sit on it and just have one in the plane, "wear it".

Secondly, don't get too complacent. Especially when it comes to an engine failure on take-off.

At that critical moment with a load of cargo on board, be aware that an immediate shove forward on the control wheel can you from stalling.

Unfortunately this kind of emergency doesn't give you any time at all to think about what to do, just be prepared to do it lightning fast or that plane will fall right out of the sky.

Otherwise, enjoy and have fun.


theplummeter  (C License)

Jul 21, 2011, 2:55 PM
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Re: [captain1976] A word for the pilots... [In reply to] Can't Post

This will be my fourth year of flying jumpers part time, so I have limited experience but here is what I have picked up:

I give the jumpers altitude until the jump run, then they get airspeed. In other words get them to altitude and from the time the door opens keep a constant airspeed. When you have a four way hanging off a Cessna (182 in my case) you won't be able to hold both for any length of time.

Keep your feet glued to the rudders. If I see riser with a jumper on the strut, which has only happened once, my right foot meets the firewall.

Spotting is an art form, you need to be able to look straight down and not forward to do a really effective job of it. Having a GPS is wonderful for verifying winds aloft but a good spot is still a function of good planning and careful eyeballing. I'm just now getting good at putting the static line students where I want them when we have a jumpmaster who doesn't spot.

Keep you head on a swivel. In warm weather with updrafts I can very easily catch tandems or higher hop and pops while I descend. In addition to watching for air traffic you need to keep an eye on the jumpers.

Try to have fun. I grit my teeth a little wishing I was getting out every time I open the door, but flying can still be fun.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jul 21, 2011, 3:08 PM
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Re: [flymissionary] A word for the pilots... [In reply to] Can't Post

At the risk of being too vague, get training from a pilot who's competent in type.

And understand the skydiving FAR's. There are a few things in there that will hang you with the FAA if you don't know the ins and outs.


IanHarrop  (C 1152)

Jul 21, 2011, 3:13 PM
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Re: [flymissionary] A word for the pilots... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hey guys...I'm looking at possibly getting a job towing some skydivers out of a 206...I've got about 9 actual jumps myself so I have very LIMITED skydiving experience. However...do you guys have any tips that might be able to help out the pilot do a better job?

A whole website dedicated to those people that pilot jump planes Smile

http://diverdriver.com/


Scrumpot  (D License)

Jul 21, 2011, 3:31 PM
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Re: [theplummeter] A word for the pilots... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...when we have a jumpmaster who doesn't spot.
Shocked - WTF?? Crazy


Idunno

Jul 21, 2011, 3:36 PM
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Re: [theplummeter] A word for the pilots... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Having a GPS is wonderful for verifying winds aloft...

How does that work, exactly? A GPS only shows a point over the ground from satellite triangulation, right? So how does it know the winds aloft? Satellites can't read the wind...


(This post was edited by Idunno on Jul 21, 2011, 3:37 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 21, 2011, 3:59 PM
Post #10 of 19 (1995 views)
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Re: [Idunno] A word for the pilots... [In reply to] Can't Post

>>Having a GPS is wonderful for verifying winds aloft...

>How does that work, exactly?

True airspeed - GPS speed = winds aloft.


JohnRich  (D License)

Jul 21, 2011, 6:49 PM
Post #11 of 19 (1914 views)
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Re: [billvon] A word for the pilots... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>>Having a GPS is wonderful for verifying winds aloft...

> How does that work, exactly?

True airspeed - GPS speed = winds aloft.

Ah, so it's not just the GPS alone that does it. You have to compare it to the aircraft airspeed indicator. So if the airspeed says 120 mph, and the GPS says 80 mph, then you've got a 40 mph headwind. Got it! And if you turn downwind, the airspeed is still 120, but the GPS speed would be 160, right? So if the GPS speed is greater than the airspeed, you're running with the wind, and if the GPS speed is less than the airspeed, you're facing into the wind in some degree, right? And by comparing this numbers as you circle. facing in different directions, you can then figure out the compass direction of the wind - that's the point where the you have the maximum differential between the airspeed and the GPS speed, right?


(This post was edited by JohnRich on Jul 21, 2011, 6:50 PM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jul 21, 2011, 9:41 PM
Post #12 of 19 (1852 views)
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Re: [Idunno] A word for the pilots... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
A GPS only shows a point over the ground from satellite triangulation, right? So how does it know the winds aloft? Satellites can't read the wind...

A GPS in a moving aricraft does show a single point over the ground. Then, less than a second later, it updates, and shows you another point. Then, less than a second later, it shows you another point.

What you're saying is the equivilant of asking how a movie actually 'moves', when all it does is project a single picture onto a screen.

The GPS, like a movie, lines up all those points and simply calculates the distance between them, and uses the time interval betwwen points to come up with the speed.

Now if you really want to make a GPS like a movie, you need to hire a piano player to play along and provide a soudntrack. One day, you might even see a color GPS as well! Can you imagine? Color and sound? What will they think of next?


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jul 21, 2011, 9:47 PM
Post #13 of 19 (1846 views)
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Re: [flymissionary] A word for the pilots... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
...do you guys have any tips that might be able to help out the pilot do a better job?

Most of jump piloting is just flying. It's when the door opens and people start to climb out that things get 'specific'.

As previously mentioned, not stalling on jumprun is a good idea. When you configure for jumprun, build in a 300-500 fpm descent, established and stabilized before you let anyone open the door. This way, if one of the jumpers should do something to casue a ptiching up of the aircraft, you're that much further from the stall and have that much more time to react.

A 206 will empty out in way less than a minute. No jumper who knows anything about anything gives two shits about getting out 300-500 ft lower than when you open the door. The increased safety margin is well worth the altitude loss. It's not uncommon for an Otter to lose 1000ft over the course of a long jumprun, and I'd give that altitude up anytime, anyday, no complaints.


theplummeter  (C License)

Jul 21, 2011, 9:53 PM
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Re: [davelepka] A word for the pilots... [In reply to] Can't Post

If you maintain a constant airspeed climb while turning 360 degrees the point with the lowest groundspeed is exactly where the winds originate. Works even without a moving map. The difference between your groundspeed and true airspeed is the wind velocity, which helps with the exit point.


theonlyski  (D License)

Jul 22, 2011, 5:11 AM
Post #15 of 19 (1787 views)
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Re: [davelepka] A word for the pilots... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A GPS in a moving aricraft does show a single point over the ground. Then, less than a second later, it updates, and shows you another point. Then, less than a second later, it shows you another point.

Not to sound like an asshole or a know it all:

Provided it's got a 1Hz or better refresh rate. There are some GPS units out there that could be slower. Just wanted to throw that out there. Though more modern units are refreshing faster than that.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jul 22, 2011, 5:58 AM
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Re: A word for (ALL) the jump pilots... [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks!


kallend  (D 23151)

Jul 25, 2011, 11:24 AM
Post #17 of 19 (1503 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] A word for the pilots... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
>>Having a GPS is wonderful for verifying winds aloft...

> How does that work, exactly?

True airspeed - GPS speed = winds aloft.

Ah, so it's not just the GPS alone that does it. You have to compare it to the aircraft airspeed indicator. So if the airspeed says 120 mph, and the GPS says 80 mph, then you've got a 40 mph headwind. Got it! And if you turn downwind, the airspeed is still 120, but the GPS speed would be 160, right? So if the GPS speed is greater than the airspeed, you're running with the wind, and if the GPS speed is less than the airspeed, you're facing into the wind in some degree, right? And by comparing this numbers as you circle. facing in different directions, you can then figure out the compass direction of the wind - that's the point where the you have the maximum differential between the airspeed and the GPS speed, right?

The more expensive aviation GPSs do the calculations automatically. Even my "cheap" AERA560 makes it a trivial calculation; enter IAS and heading and press a button.


Tiddy  (B License)

Aug 3, 2011, 11:12 PM
Post #18 of 19 (1239 views)
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Re: A word for the pilots... [In reply to] Can't Post

I drop divers out of a 205. Same thing as a 206 pretty much. I am reading this discussion on winds aloft and looking at a gps to figure out the winds. (IAS vs GS).

Does anyone not know where to get your winds aloft forecast? Let me help...

http://www.aviationweather.gov/adds/winds/

First 2 numbers are direction, and second 2 are speed. If it says 9900, this means calm. Temp follows. If you see numbers that don't make any since, dont worry, your not jumping that day...

bookmark that, select your region, find the closest airport in the list to your DZ and look at 3/6/9/12 winds! Temps are there too! You can get in the airplane having the highest SA of anyone.

Jumpers need to be familiar with the weather just as much as pilots do.

As far as the 206.... Fly the plane, like some of the others responded, drop the nose a little as they climb out, you don't need a stall with 3 on the strut and one in the door. Get some vortex gen's if you overly concerned. That will shorten up that stall speed, but do not rely on it.

I have had jumpers take their sweat time on the strut. Mainly inexperienced jumpers. Slow climb out, long counts, etc.... as they come to the airplane, brief with them on what they are going to do. That way your not surprised...


(This post was edited by Tiddy on Aug 3, 2011, 11:48 PM)


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Aug 4, 2011, 5:06 AM
Post #19 of 19 (1211 views)
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Re: [Tiddy] A word for the pilots... [In reply to] Can't Post

USAirnet posts the same information is a much easier to understand manner:

http://www.usairnet.com/cgi-bin/Winds/Aloft.cgi

_Am



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