Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Open door on takeoff

 

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CMiller  (B 30864)

Jul 30, 2011, 6:06 PM
Post #1 of 78 (3622 views)
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Open door on takeoff Can't Post

Apparently we are now allowed to open the door on takeoff. Nobody I talked to seems to think this is a bad idea, but my reasoning is:

A pilote chute out the door with a seatbelt on is extra bad.
A pilot chute out the door with insufficient altitude for a main to open is bad.

Am I missing something?


diablopilot  (D License)

Jul 30, 2011, 6:12 PM
Post #2 of 78 (3593 views)
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Re: [CMiller] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

At least your head is screwed on straight. I wouldn't get on the airplane if they allow that.


champu  (D 28302)

Jul 30, 2011, 6:34 PM
Post #3 of 78 (3581 views)
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Re: [CMiller] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, I don't really care what's "allowed"... If I'm there I close the door until seat belts are off at 1000 ft and people get done moving to the floor and shifting around.

We're talking less than a minute of having the door closed.


CMiller  (B 30864)

Jul 30, 2011, 6:37 PM
Post #4 of 78 (3577 views)
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Re: [champu] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

How exactly is the best way to approach people about this issue? I don't want to seem like a dick, and nobody closes the door when I mention it when I am in a plane and it happens.


SansSuit  (D 21554)

Jul 30, 2011, 6:50 PM
Post #5 of 78 (3557 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
At least your head is screwed on straight. I wouldn't get on the airplane if they allow that.

What about an aircraft that has no door? Like a C206 with a cargo door (that isn't there)?


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jul 30, 2011, 7:22 PM
Post #6 of 78 (3530 views)
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Re: [SansSuit] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

What about it?


Idunno

Jul 30, 2011, 7:26 PM
Post #7 of 78 (3525 views)
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Re: [CMiller] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

What kind of plane?


CMiller  (B 30864)

Jul 30, 2011, 7:28 PM
Post #8 of 78 (3518 views)
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Re: [Idunno] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What kind of plane?

Otter.


SansSuit  (D 21554)

Jul 30, 2011, 7:29 PM
Post #9 of 78 (3517 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What about it?
I was asking diablopilot if he would jump a C206 that doesn't have a door.


AggieDave  (D License)

Jul 30, 2011, 7:37 PM
Post #10 of 78 (3510 views)
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Re: [SansSuit] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
What about it?
I was asking diablopilot if he would jump a C206 that doesn't have a door.

I don't mind an aircraft that does not have a door, but if there is a door available, I would prefer to have it closed for take off.

Why? Well, it is a good safety choice and if you become a heat casualty due to sitting in a jump plane on take off with the door closed, then your health choices are poor. Drink more water, party less the night before...whatever it may be.


diablopilot  (D License)

Jul 30, 2011, 9:06 PM
Post #11 of 78 (3451 views)
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Re: [SansSuit] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

Depends. Do I have to secure myself to the aircraft?


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jul 31, 2011, 5:17 AM
Post #12 of 78 (3351 views)
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Re: [CMiller] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How exactly is the best way to approach people about this issue? I don't want to seem like a dick, and nobody closes the door when I mention it when I am in a plane and it happens.

Takeoffs with the door open make no sense. Cooling the plane off a bit during the short period of time needed to get from the ground to 1000 or 1500 feet isn't worth the risk of what would happen if a pilot chute went out the door.

I would start with the DZO or S&TA, and politely explain the possibilities when people are belted into the plane near the door with the door open.

Bottom line: seat belts on with the door open is dangerous for everyone on the plane.


SansSuit  (D 21554)

Jul 31, 2011, 6:47 AM
Post #13 of 78 (3312 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Depends. Do I have to secure myself to the aircraft?

Seat belts to 1,000'. That's the rule.


stratostar  (Student)

Jul 31, 2011, 7:03 AM
Post #14 of 78 (3303 views)
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Re: [SansSuit] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

Wouldn't bother me any, then again when I started we didn't have no stinking door to close and we had all kinds of handles and and shit sticking out all over the place. You learned to cover your handles and move very careful about the AC ever mindful of the belly wart if near the door.

(we didn't have doors or seat belts till later on, belts were after the door came in fashion)

It used to freak me out, but I got over it.... but I have always been mindful of my movements, open or closed door.


(This post was edited by stratostar on Jul 31, 2011, 7:04 AM)


SansSuit  (D 21554)

Jul 31, 2011, 7:34 AM
Post #15 of 78 (3283 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Wouldn't bother me any, then again when I started we didn't have no stinking door to close and we had all kinds of handles and and shit sticking out all over the place. You learned to cover your handles and move very careful about the AC ever mindful of the belly wart if near the door.

(we didn't have doors or seat belts till later on, belts were after the door came in fashion)

It used to freak me out, but I got over it.... but I have always been mindful of my movements, open or closed door.

This is the way I feel about it. The other day I had the opportunity to ride a C206 with the door off. Yeah, there are dangers that you need to be aware of but be careful and those dangers are mitigated.

And then there is the WFFC 412. No chance of a pilot chute getting loose under that extremely controlled configuration. Wink


shropshire  (C License)

Jul 31, 2011, 7:38 AM
Post #16 of 78 (3279 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

People should be mindful of their 'movements' .......... and farts in a plane Tongue


airdvr  (D 10977)

Jul 31, 2011, 8:52 AM
Post #17 of 78 (3256 views)
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Re: [shropshire] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the door open issue has alot to do with drag on a multi-engine aircraft if one engine quits. Not sure which engine would be a problem but I think losing the engine opposite the side of the door would create a yaw that would be more difficult to handle of the door were open.


lopullterri  (D 20814)

Jul 31, 2011, 10:25 AM
Post #18 of 78 (3226 views)
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Re: [CMiller] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

All in all...if there is a door available, why risk leaving it open? It does create extra drag to leave it open and there is the risk of a PC out issue. If we are required to have seat belts on until 1000 feet, then the door should be closed.
Personally, I have sat by an open door many times in the past for takeoff and preferred it, because I was doing video and you get a better video. Was it the safest decision? No. Why risk it if the door is there?


diablopilot  (D License)

Jul 31, 2011, 11:09 AM
Post #19 of 78 (3199 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Wouldn't bother me any, then again when I started we didn't have no stinking door to close and we had all kinds of handles and and shit sticking out all over the place. You learned to cover your handles and move very careful about the AC ever mindful of the belly wart if near the door.

(we didn't have doors or seat belts till later on, belts were after the door came in fashion)

It used to freak me out, but I got over it.... but I have always been mindful of my movements, open or closed door.

The difference was A) as you pointed out you didn't have seatbelts, and B) Skydivers were much smarter then.


champu  (D 28302)

Jul 31, 2011, 2:15 PM
Post #20 of 78 (3130 views)
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Re: [CMiller] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How exactly is the best way to approach people about this issue? I don't want to seem like a dick, and nobody closes the door when I mention it when I am in a plane and it happens.

Make sure to be clear it's about not having the door open when people are belted in so no one gets ripped in half and/or crashes the plane. People that are stubborn about wanting to have the door open at all times tend to have misonceptions about why it's a dumbass idea. I might have a chat with Lob next weekend while I'm out there.


bigbearfng  (D 29442)

Aug 1, 2011, 1:54 AM
Post #21 of 78 (2981 views)
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Re: [CMiller] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

Just do what I've done-show them the pic in Poynter's (parachuting the skydiver's handbook)book of the Cessna ripped open when a reserve went out the door-that pic is worth a thousand words!!!!


stratostar  (Student)

Aug 1, 2011, 5:50 AM
Post #22 of 78 (2939 views)
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Re: [bigbearfng] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

And FYI-, that door was OPEN!


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Aug 1, 2011, 8:40 AM
Post #23 of 78 (2868 views)
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Re: [champu] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yeah, I don't really care what's "allowed"... If I'm there I close the door until seat belts are off at 1000 ft and people get done moving to the floor and shifting around.

Are you comfy pulling your either your reserve or main at 1000 ft? I'm not (reserve is close I guess). If the pilot wants it closed to a certain altitude x, and I'm comfy at altitude y for reserve exit, and all the seatbelts are off. then door opens at the higher of x and y. (If I'm at the door). let TMs bitch for another minute - they will live.


My favorite is when a DZ has a closed door policy of any kind - so the jumpers only open the door 3-6 inches or so. I like that - it's big enough for a pilot chute to escape, just not a body........Crazy the door should either be open, or closed, part way is really just stupid


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Aug 1, 2011, 8:41 AM)


champu  (D 28302)

Aug 1, 2011, 10:19 AM
Post #24 of 78 (2814 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Yeah, I don't really care what's "allowed"... If I'm there I close the door until seat belts are off at 1000 ft and people get done moving to the floor and shifting around.

Are you comfy pulling your either your reserve or main at 1000 ft? I'm not (reserve is close I guess). If the pilot wants it closed to a certain altitude x, and I'm comfy at altitude y for reserve exit, and all the seatbelts are off. then door opens at the higher of x and y. (If I'm at the door). let TMs bitch for another minute - they will live.

I'd get out on my reserve at a grand. Having done some clear and pull jumps on the same make/model as a main, I'm pretty happy with how fast it opens out the door. But again, it's not so much about the altitude as it is about the seatbelts.

If the seatbelts are off and the door is open on an Otter, then a pilot chute getting out the door is likely to be a problem for one person. I think by 1000ft the risk of it happening vs the odds that it can be handled by a jumper are reasonable. I'm familiar with the WFFC incident a few years back where the premature deployed into the horizontal stabilizer, but that guy climbed out and held on all the way to inflation which wouldn't happen in the case we're talking about.

If the seatbelts are on and the door is open a pilot chute getting out the door is likely to be a problem for the whole plane whether you're at 1000ft or not. The risk of it happening isn't really any greater than in the above case but the stakes are much much higher.

Waiting to open the door until people get done scooting around, moving to the floor, etc. should be self explanitory.

In reply to:
My favorite is when a DZ has a closed door policy of any kind - so the jumpers only open the door 3-6 inches or so. I like that - it's big enough for a pilot chute to escape, just not a body........Crazy the door should either be open, or closed, part way is really just stupid

Yeah, that's another silly "compromise." Although if a pilot chute does pull a d-bag out the bottom of the door the person attached to it is going right through that sliderblind. So it doesn't present as much of a hazard to the rest of the jumpers as having seatbelts on with the door open.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Aug 1, 2011, 10:22 AM
Post #25 of 78 (2809 views)
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Re: [champu] Open door on takeoff [In reply to] Can't Post

sounds good - we're on the same page


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