Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
100% flaring before landing

 

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

shah269  (A 59581)

Jul 26, 2011, 1:27 PM
Post #1 of 36 (2495 views)
Shortcut
100% flaring before landing Can't Post

http://www.cenekreport.com/...ERSION=1274642541111

I know I KNOW.....but I'm having a really freaking hard time getting it. On the student equipment I was doing rather well with many stand up landings or very soft landings.
But with my personal equipment, 7 cell 210, I just can't seem to figure it out. Thus far of the 10 jups I've had on it I've only stood up 3 of them. And the last one I "felt" as if I flared too high and came in a bit hard. Turns out I had not flared too high and i had not fully flared.

Thoughts?
I'm going to work with my coach. But what are your thoughts on grabbing some toggles at final to maybe put some pressure on the system. Maybe pulling down to my ears? And then Down by my chest at say 50ft and then the rest of the way at 10ft?


jumpsalot-2  (D 33093)

Jul 26, 2011, 1:43 PM
Post #2 of 36 (2460 views)
Shortcut
Re: [shah269] 100% flaring before landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Can you fully stall your canopy ( to collapes ) at high / safe altitudes ?


shah269  (A 59581)

Jul 26, 2011, 1:46 PM
Post #3 of 36 (2453 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jumpsalot-2] 100% flaring before landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Can you fully stall your canopy ( to collapes ) at high / safe altitudes ?
I've been working on that, almost.
Yeah it's scarry as hell...she shakes isn't happy when I do it. But yeah I've gotten close.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Jul 26, 2011, 1:58 PM
Post #4 of 36 (2431 views)
Shortcut
Re: [shah269] 100% flaring before landing [In reply to] Can't Post

I only have one question - and it involves your link / picture attachment, actually. ...Who the heck RUINED that perfectly good picture, by photo-shopping in a horse, where a PERFECTLY GOOD copy machine used to be?

In reply to:
...what are your thoughts on grabbing some toggles at final to maybe put some pressure on the system. Maybe pulling down to my ears? And then Down by my chest at say 50ft and then the rest of the way at 10ft?

BAD idea. But then, so is trying to gain "instruction" over the interwebs. As you've also already mentioned - PLEASE... See/take your INSTRUCTION and further direction on such, from your instructors/mentors/coaches who are available to you IN PERSON for such items. You're really not going to do yourself much good, by asking for such on here.

FWIW.
Blue Skies,
-Grant


jumpsalot-2  (D 33093)

Jul 26, 2011, 2:01 PM
Post #5 of 36 (2427 views)
Shortcut
Re: [shah269] 100% flaring before landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Nothing to be scared of up high. You should be able to collapse it after a few seconds in deep brakes. If not, ask a rigger about longer risers or shortening brake lines. Ask instructors about two stage flare technigue.


DaVinciflies

Jul 26, 2011, 2:24 PM
Post #6 of 36 (2403 views)
Shortcut
Re: [shah269] 100% flaring before landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
But what are your thoughts on grabbing some toggles at final to maybe put some pressure on the system. Maybe pulling down to my ears? And then Down by my chest at say 50ft and then the rest of the way at 10ft?

This is the absolute opposite of what you should be doing for a soft landing.

During landing, airspeed is converted to lift by the process of flaring. The more airspeed you have, the more lift you can convert it to.

What you are describing is a braked approach and landing and, while useful in some circumstances, it will not give you the softest landings. You are robbing your canopy of airspeed before you need to flare, which in turn robs you of flare power.

The ideal situation for non-swoopers is to allow at least 10 seconds of NO INPUT to the canopy before the flare. This means no little corrections, no partial flares, no turns. After you have turned from base to final it is arms all the way up until you need to flare (or obviously if you need to avoid an obstacle).

This technique is rarely seen in practice and is one of the more common mistakes, along with not flaring all the way.

Do lots of practice flares up high (after clearing your airspace) and try to find the sweet-spot. If you don't know what it is please ask your canopy coach to explain, and if they can't please find another coach.

That's about all I am going to say on the theory - the next step is to get a good "canopy instructor" (ie. someone who knows how to teach canopy control) to give you more and ideally to video debrief your landings.


JackC1

Jul 26, 2011, 2:37 PM
Post #7 of 36 (2385 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jumpsalot-2] 100% flaring before landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Nothing to be scared of up high. You should be able to collapse it after a few seconds in deep brakes. If not, ask a rigger about longer risers or shortening brake lines. Ask instructors about two stage flare technigue.

That depends. You should have a little slack in the brake lines at full drive. At that brake line length, some canopies are difficult to stall (bigger ones usually) without taking wraps which I don't much like doing. You don't absolutely need to be able to stall the thing anyway.

Here's something to try up high. Let your canopy fly on full drive for 5-10 seconds and apply just enough brake to get the nose to go up, then hold the brakes there. The canopy will pitch up then recover and start to dive again. Then apply a bit more brake till the nose pitches up again and hold it. When it recovers, do it all again and again until you run out of flare. Depending on your canopy, you might only get two goes per flare, or you might get five. It should feel like your canopy is going down a flight of stairs, nose up, recover, nose up, recover etc...

Try that as many times as altitude allows on as many jumps as it takes to get it. You aim is first to feel the stair case, then to try and smooth out the stairs by progressively applying the brakes to try and maintain flat and level flight (ie not losing altitude) throughout the flare range. Try and see how long you can get the thing flying flat and level before you run out of flare. Use all of your flare range, from full drive to the stall point, that's the point at which the stall starts to take effect, not past it where it turns into a bow tie and collapses. Make sure you know where the stall point is on your canopy (if you can reach it) before you do this.

Then when you come into land, do the same thing all nice and smooth. Try and keep the thing flying flat and level over the ground for as long as you can until the canopy stops flying and you have to step onto the ground. If you time it right, you should be able to plane out and land as light as stepping off a curb.


hookitt  (D License)

Jul 26, 2011, 3:23 PM
Post #8 of 36 (2341 views)
Shortcut
Re: [shah269] 100% flaring before landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Thoughts?
I'm going to work with my coach. But what are your thoughts on grabbing some toggles at final to maybe put some pressure on the system. Maybe pulling down to my ears? And then Down by my chest at say 50ft and then the rest of the way at 10ft?

From jump number 1, besides maintaining heading, we are taught arms up to let the canopy fly, then flare around 8 feet (generalized). That still stands true.

When you flare, you should basically pendulum under the canopy first stopping the downward speed then hopefully finish by stopping horizontal speed.

If you put the brakes on up high, you will remain behind the canopy and never be able to pendulum under it when you finish flaring.

If you're struggling to be able to stall, it's either by fear, or the brakelines are long. I expect a certain amount of fear but are you able to actually stall it by holding the brakes down or does it never actually stall?

Another thing... Triathlons kinda suck Wink The flare characteristics are not what I would call powerful. A person can learn how to fly them just fine but it's a canopy I never suggest unless it's suuuuper cheap.


AggieDave  (D License)

Jul 26, 2011, 3:47 PM
Post #9 of 36 (2311 views)
Shortcut
Re: [hookitt] 100% flaring before landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Another thing... Triathlons kinda suck Wink The flare characteristics are not what I would call powerful. A person can learn how to fly them just fine but it's a canopy I never suggest unless it's suuuuper cheap.

The flare stroke is also a bit different than modern designed canopies. Where as with a PD Storm you expect a certain amount of push on the bottom end when finishing your toggle stroke, you just don't have that with the Triathlon. I've found the toggle stroke on a Tri to be more like an old Raider or the old design PD F111 canopy, with a faster and more continuous movement.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 26, 2011, 4:00 PM
Post #10 of 36 (2301 views)
Shortcut
Re: [shah269] 100% flaring before landing [In reply to] Can't Post

>But what are your thoughts on grabbing some toggles at final to maybe put some
>pressure on the system.

Don't do that!

>Maybe pulling down to my ears?

Don't do that either!

>And then Down by my chest at say 50ft and then the rest of the way at 10ft?

And definitely don't do that!

I'd practice up high. Make sure you are getting your toggles all the way down by your crotch during your flare. Do it over and over again (at a fairly high altitude of course) until it's second nature. Then do the same thing down low. Do NOT flare before you get to flare altitude! That just burns up airspeed and decreases energy available to slow your downward descent.


voilsb  (D 30581)

Jul 26, 2011, 4:25 PM
Post #11 of 36 (2275 views)
Shortcut
Re: [shah269] 100% flaring before landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Up high, do some practice flares normally, and then take a small wrap and do some practice flares.

I had a Triathlon, and it wouldn't flare well at all normally. But with a small wrap, it flared beautifully. However, with the wrap, it would stall after a couple of seconds at the bottom end, so I had to be aware of it to avoid stalling it close to the ground.
With the wrap, the brake lines were too short, so I flew it without the wrap until close to landing time.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jul 26, 2011, 4:29 PM
Post #12 of 36 (2269 views)
Shortcut
Re: [voilsb] 100% flaring before landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Up high, do some practice flares normally, and then take a small wrap and do some practice flares.

I had a Triathlon, and it wouldn't flare well at all normally. But with a small wrap, it flared beautifully. However, with the wrap, it would stall after a couple of seconds at the bottom end, so I had to be aware of it to avoid stalling it close to the ground.
With the wrap, the brake lines were too short, so I flew it without the wrap until close to landing time.

You know, instead of chicken-wiring it to make it work (and close to landing isnt the time to mess around with taking wraps of line around your hands IMO), you could have installed longer risers to your rig to effectively lengthen your flare stroke.


sebcat  (D 22826)

Jul 26, 2011, 6:11 PM
Post #13 of 36 (2214 views)
Shortcut
Re: [shah269] 100% flaring before landing [In reply to] Can't Post

What you need is more speed. Try doing a 270 hook.

Can you get your landings on the modern equivalent of tape? I bet you're flaring too slow, but video would help in making a more correct assessment.


shah269  (A 59581)

Jul 26, 2011, 6:24 PM
Post #14 of 36 (2199 views)
Shortcut
Re: [sebcat] 100% flaring before landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes will be getting video.
Funny you should say more speed. My best landings were when I used front risers to make my turns into final.
Maybe that's all i need, a little more air speed to get my timing right.


AggieDave  (D License)

Jul 26, 2011, 6:28 PM
Post #15 of 36 (2198 views)
Shortcut
Re: [shah269] 100% flaring before landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yes will be getting video.
Funny you should say more speed. My best landings were when I used front risers to make my turns into final.
Maybe that's all i need, a little more air speed to get my timing right.

That's like a teenager saying "I'm not smooth driving around a gentle turn, what I should do is gun it and try drifting the car around the corner..."

If you decide that you need to hook it for safety, please get the video. The SoFPiDaRF always needs new video!


theonlyski  (D License)

Jul 26, 2011, 6:37 PM
Post #16 of 36 (2190 views)
Shortcut
Re: [AggieDave] 100% flaring before landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If you decide that you need to hook it for safety, please get the video. The SoFPiDaRF always needs new video!

I thought you had to downsize for safety to be a member of the team?

Yes, new video would be awesome though... don't recall seeing ANY of a 210!


grimmie  (D 18890)

Jul 26, 2011, 6:44 PM
Post #17 of 36 (2183 views)
Shortcut
Re: [shah269] 100% flaring before landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Eat some spinach and pull your strings Olive Oil.Cool

Get a coach and a video camera. Jump, flare, land, repeat.


voilsb  (D 30581)

Jul 26, 2011, 7:21 PM
Post #18 of 36 (2150 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Remster] 100% flaring before landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You know, instead of chicken-wiring it to make it work (and close to landing isnt the time to mess around with taking wraps of line around your hands IMO), you could have installed longer risers to your rig to effectively lengthen your flare stroke.
I could have, but then if I was hanging in deep brakes, I'm teetering at the stall point. And I already had difficulty reaching the slider with that set up.

Of course, now I jump a nicer set up which doesn't have those issues.

As for the wrap, it was a simple 1/2 second action before I enter the pattern to stick out my first two fingers and turn them in a circle to take the wrap.


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jul 26, 2011, 7:41 PM
Post #19 of 36 (2138 views)
Shortcut
Re: [shah269] 100% flaring before landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry, but you bought a Triathlon...
It was sold as a multi-purpose canopy, but that basically means that it isn't really good at anything
This is the toughest canopy made for getting a good landing.
For you to get a good landing on that canopy your timing has to be "perfect". If you are flying a straight-in final, the difference between stand-up and crash is about 1/2 second, and you need to give it a full flair, not staging it.
Do a couple of jumps on a Sabre 2 or something similar to get your confidence back.
The up side.....
If you can do consistent stand-ups with your canopy, you can land anything.


(This post was edited by ufk22 on Jul 26, 2011, 7:43 PM)


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Jul 26, 2011, 9:53 PM
Post #20 of 36 (2083 views)
Shortcut
Re: [shah269] 100% flaring before landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
as if I flared too high

With a seven cell you will have to flair a little higher than with a 9 cell. You have less aspect ratio and the canopy takes longer to react. There is no way to explain to when to flair but you flair should a continuous stroke from full flight all the way to arm extension. Start at about 10 or 12 feet and work from there.

Sparky


hookitt  (D License)

Jul 27, 2011, 11:34 AM
Post #21 of 36 (1964 views)
Shortcut
Re: [shah269] 100% flaring before landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Maybe that's all i need, a little more air speed to get my timing right.

Maybe, when it comes to skydiving, a little less engineering should go into it. I'm saying that with complete sincerity.

Just flare. It's a parachute. Let it fly, when you get to around 8 feet or so, just flare it smooth and completely. If it's windy, flare less, but just flare it.

If you keep trying to analyze every movement, you'll drive yourself nuts. Pull high, fly it around, test flare and feel it. Start feeling it rather than trying to use some formula.

Good luck


shah269  (A 59581)

Jul 27, 2011, 12:49 PM
Post #22 of 36 (1919 views)
Shortcut
Re: [hookitt] 100% flaring before landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah less thinking more flying......


Calvin19  (D 29712)

Jul 27, 2011, 5:49 PM
Post #23 of 36 (1819 views)
Shortcut
Re: [hookitt] 100% flaring before landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Maybe, when it comes to skydiving, a little less engineering should go into it. I'm saying that with complete sincerity.

Just flare. It's a parachute. Let it fly, when you get to around 8 feet or so, just flare it smooth and completely. If it's windy, flare less, but just flare it.

If you keep trying to analyze every movement, you'll drive yourself nuts. Pull high, fly it around, test flare and feel it. Start feeling it rather than trying to use some formula.

Good luck

Word. Don't turn too low and flare, the rest is art.


thrillstalker  (C 40678)

Jul 27, 2011, 8:21 PM
Post #24 of 36 (1764 views)
Shortcut
Re: [shah269] 100% flaring before landing [In reply to] Can't Post

*Not giving you advice*

i had the same problem. it took my too wraps to stall my canopy. i had the brake lines shortened by 4 inches and now she flares amazingly good. i still have to be careful because it is basically a brand new canopy to me.


tdog  (D 28800)

Jul 28, 2011, 1:40 AM
Post #25 of 36 (1706 views)
Shortcut
Re: [shah269] 100% flaring before landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Try borrowing a friend's canopy, look for one of about the same size made by PD...

I noticed whenever I borrowed a triathlon, it was hard to time right the landing. The two stage flare often did not work, instead I found you needed a "yank it for all you got" type flare... It just did not feel natural to the other canopies I have flown... In fact, I had a Pilot as my first canopy (same manufacture). We did not get along at all. I gained a reputation for not standing up the landings after having nothing but stand up landings on my paraglider and all the PD product canopies I rented as a student for my first 50 jumps. I got video and coaching, but still I hated it and never got where I wanted to be. In fact, coaching made it worse because the coaches were recommending a two stage flare (because they flew PD also and did not understand that canopy as well) and I found that canopy did not like a two stage flare. I purchased two PD products and sold the pilot and suddenly everything felt right again and my landings became fun again. I am not saying the aerodyne products suck, they just sucked for me and how I learned to land.

You may find that your canopy is giving you a hard time, and if so, you will need extra coaching to overcome it - or you could trade your canopy for something that works better for you.

The only way to know is to get some coaching and borrow other canopies.


First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Skydiving : Safety and Training

 


Search for (options)