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Instructors. Is this what you would do?

 

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-ftp-

Jul 16, 2011, 8:56 AM
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Instructors. Is this what you would do? Can't Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9k0vUE69ywY


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Jul 16, 2011, 12:31 PM
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Re: [-ftp-] Instructors. Is this what you would do? [In reply to] Can't Post

1. There are student systems where the reserve ripcord cuts the main and deploys the reserve.
2. They appeared to be pretty deep in the bottom end.
3. The only one there who could have made the call was the reserve side Instructor...

I'll leave that judgement to him/her.


flyingmontana  (D 31509)

Jul 16, 2011, 12:42 PM
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Re: [-ftp-] Instructors. Is this what you would do? [In reply to] Can't Post

The video shot by the video flyer on this jump was also posted to YouTube by the student, who wrote this in the description below:
"My main canopy had a baglock malfunction @ a little under 5000 feet. I waited longer than the 3-count to break away. My reserve instructor tried to shake the main lines to release the chute, but it didn't do the trick, so he popped my reserve handle. The reserve deployment actually released the baglock, so I had 2 chutes out. The lines were twisted, and as they untwisted, the two canopies formed a downplane (one canopy on either side of my body, flying straight down) At about 2200 feet, I cut away the main and flew the reserve to a surprisingly smooth landing, just off the runway, going with the wind, instead of into it.
all in all, AWESOME jump!!"

Sounds like this student was lucky and has a good attitude!


flyingmontana  (D 31509)

Jul 16, 2011, 12:50 PM
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Re: [flyingmontana] Instructors. Is this what you would do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is the video flyer's perspective on the jump:

http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=related


SafetyNate  (D 25378)

Jul 16, 2011, 5:04 PM
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Re: [BIGUN] Instructors. Is this what you would do? [In reply to] Can't Post

After this jump, the student bought his cat b. He made 2 jumps today including his release jump and is doing awesome. I'm pretty sure he is hooked! Tough decision to make. I feel it was the right one since he walked away uninjured.

..........and cue the haters and let the shit slingin begin!


jumpsalot-2  (D 33093)

Jul 16, 2011, 6:29 PM
Post #6 of 60 (3804 views)
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Re: [SafetyNate] Instructors. Is this what you would do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Seems like the only option, seeing as how the main side instructor tracked off before the student's canopy inflated, and the student was not going to cut-away by himself ( which he could have of course, but.............)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jul 17, 2011, 5:08 AM
Post #7 of 60 (3703 views)
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Re: [jumpsalot-2] Instructors. Is this what you would do? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Seems like the only option, seeing as how the main side instructor tracked off before the student's canopy inflated, and the student was not going to cut-away by himself ( which he could have of course, but.............)

It's not the main side's job to stay until the canopy inflates. That is one of the major causes of PCIT problems where the PC doesn't get enough air to inflate or enough pull to get the main d-bag out of the container.

Main side leaves when the PC leaves the jumpers hand (or comes out when using pull-out or other systems).


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jul 17, 2011, 5:09 AM
Post #8 of 60 (3703 views)
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Re: [jumpsalot-2] Instructors. Is this what you would do? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Seems like the only option, seeing as how the main side instructor tracked off before the student's canopy inflated..

As he is supposed to.


jumpsalot-2  (D 33093)

Jul 17, 2011, 9:58 AM
Post #9 of 60 (3651 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Instructors. Is this what you would do? [In reply to] Can't Post

OK, thanks. I was referencing other vids I've seen, where pilot chute is tossed, and canopy inflates while the two instructors watch it inflate, and they both watch him disappear.....In my opinion, this student was not going to cut-away ( anytime soon ). Having the reserve out gives him something over his head, but the baglock could have drifted to the rear at the same time, maybe causing a wrap. Would you have done anything different ?


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jul 17, 2011, 1:39 PM
Post #10 of 60 (3610 views)
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Re: [jumpsalot-2] Instructors. Is this what you would do? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
OK, thanks. I was referencing other vids I've seen, where pilot chute is tossed, and canopy inflates while the two instructors watch it inflate, and they both watch him disappear.....In my opinion, this student was not going to cut-away ( anytime soon ). Having the reserve out gives him something over his head, but the baglock could have drifted to the rear at the same time, maybe causing a wrap. Would you have done anything different ?

I'm not sure how that gear was set up. Some student equipment is rigged to cutaway the main and deploy the reserve whether the cutaway handle or reserve handle is pulled. Apparently this wasn't the case here.

Given the main-side instructor was gone and the reserve-side gave clearing the main about as much of a try as he could, I don't see that he had any choice in the matter.

And yes, that situation could end badly, but dragging a bag lock to the ground doesn't sound like a good choice either.


jumpsalot-2  (D 33093)

Jul 17, 2011, 3:14 PM
Post #11 of 60 (3580 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Instructors. Is this what you would do? [In reply to] Can't Post

I totally agree. The instructor did the appropriate thing.


SafetyNate  (D 25378)

Jul 17, 2011, 6:06 PM
Post #12 of 60 (3536 views)
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Re: [jumpsalot-2] Instructors. Is this what you would do? [In reply to] Can't Post

The student actually recognized the bag lock and said he was going start pulling handles. He was super heads up. The instructor can't read his mind tho so he got something over his head. And saved the cost of replacing a cypres cutter.
The system is a normal cut away and reserve handle.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jul 18, 2011, 3:00 AM
Post #13 of 60 (3428 views)
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Re: [jumpsalot-2] Instructors. Is this what you would do? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I totally agree. The instructor did the appropriate thing.

Me?
I would have reached under and pulled the cutaway first, then the reserve.

Kudos to the RSJM for trying to clear the bag lock and not wasting an inordinate amount of altitude doing so. That's his job.

IMHO, dumping a reserve into a bag lock doesn't sound like a good idea either. That being said, depending on altitude, one may have to do that anyway.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jul 18, 2011, 3:03 AM)


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jul 18, 2011, 5:12 AM
Post #14 of 60 (3402 views)
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Re: Instructors. Is this what you would do? [In reply to] Can't Post

What are US AFF instructors actually trained to do?

Having an instructor pull the cutaway and then the reserve is of course a great thing to do in this situation, but was it even trained for? It is a pretty rare situation.

Instructors will be trained for a reserve pull. And in practice they have helped out at times in case of a pilot chute in tow, or bag not lifting off, whether or not they actually trained to reach in to assist the main opening.

So I'm curious how detailed the training gets when dealing with student mals. (I did my PFF instructor rating in Canada and we didn't get into doing things for the student beyond pulling the main, and pulling the reserve handle in some situations.)

Dumping a reserve into a baglock is safer than having an AAD do the same a few thousand feet lower, if a student didn't react, but more dangerous than a proper cutaway and reserve activation, whether by the student or some pretty involved handle pulling by the instructor. At some point one has to leave things to the student to do right or wrong.


Divalent  (C 40494)

Jul 18, 2011, 7:00 AM
Post #15 of 60 (3356 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Instructors. Is this what you would do? [In reply to] Can't Post

How about the option of letting the student deal with it (as opposed to just pulling the reserve)? Are AFF students so clueless that it would be unlikely they would do the right thing, so that it would be better to do a clearly suboptimum thing for them?

- If he does as he was trained to do, he cuts away and pulls reserve, a much better course of action.
- If he just fires the reserve, the situation is no worse than what was done for him.
- If he does nothing, either the bag clears by itself much later (better), his AAD fires low (same outcome, but less altitude to clear the 2-out), or his AAD fails and he lands a bag lock (worse).

I'm not suggesting this option (I am no instructor) but would at least be interested in instructors giving it some thought.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jul 18, 2011, 7:48 AM
Post #16 of 60 (3331 views)
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Re: [Divalent] Instructors. Is this what you would do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
How about the option of letting the student deal with it (as opposed to just pulling the reserve)?

I'm not suggesting this option

Sure sounds like you are.

Ask yourself this, if you were an instructor holding onto the harness of a student who was having a bag lock, do you really think that just dropping your grip and tracking away is a good idea?

Of all the 'options' you listed, only one would be preferable to what actually happened, that being the student going through the full EPs. Any of the others represent either a worse outcome, or the same outcome at a lower altitude (whcih I guess is worse than what actually happened).

Add to the situation that this was a high speed malfunction, and both the student and instructor were getting short on time. This isn't theoretical, or a 'what if', this was a real life shit-storm with no easy way out. The instructor did what he had to do, and the student landed without injury, and returned for serveral successful jumps (and I expect many more).


peek  (D 8884)

Jul 18, 2011, 7:58 AM
Post #17 of 60 (3319 views)
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Re: [-ftp-] Instructors. Is this what you would do? [In reply to] Can't Post

I would like to use this jump as an opportunity to discuss the responsibilities of AFF/harness-hold instructors, in particular, the difference in training/expectations in different countries. I'm interested in hearing other opinions as to what exactly AFF/harness-hold instructors are expected to do in certain situations.

Here are my opinions based on what I learned during (USPA) AFF instructor training, combined with additional information learned from more experienced instructors or from my experiences.

Right-side:
Insures that the main container is opened by the pilot chute, then tracks away. A. If a throw-out pilot chute, that the pilot chute is released and it has opened the container. B. If a spring-loaded pilot chute, that the ripcord is pulled and the pilot chute starts to leave the container. In both cases the instructor should leave to reduce the size of the burble.

Left side:
Insures that the student is in a reasonable body position for the parachute deployment and opening, that is, is reasonably level and not shoulder or head down. This involves holding on to the student until the drag from the pilot chute/bag/canopy pulls them upright into a position where they can no longer be shoulder or head down.


Many of my left-side instructor experiences have been having the student quickly yanked out of my grip shortly after the bag rises, and I have not experienced a student bag-lock, so I can't say exactly what I would do.

In this video it looks like the instructor had a very strong grip on the student, because the student's body was not pulled upright at all.

I probably would have released the student at that point, because I tend to loosen my grip on the student after they pull in anticipation of that big yank, holding on only strongly enough to hold them level, and I think my grip would be loose enough that a bag-lock would pull the student upright.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jul 18, 2011, 8:18 AM
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Re: [peek] Instructors. Is this what you would do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
In this video it looks like the instructor had a very strong grip on the student, because the student's body was not pulled upright at all.

I doubt the harness grip would restrict the student from being pulled upright. First off, the harness grip is on the other end of the harness from where the rotational force would be applied. If the main/bag/risers wanted to rotate the student upright, it would have pulled on the three ring, while the grip is low on the legstrap. The one would not restrict the other.

Additionally, the main/bag wasn't even pulling hard enough to unstow the over-the-shoulder portion of the riser covers. They only released (and I'm not even sure they did) when the AFF I reached in to try and clear the bag lock. Without enough force to dislodge two small tucktabs, you really think hanging on to the legstrap is what stopped the student from rotating?

I understand loosening your grip, and even holding the student at arms length in anticipation of the deployment, but just to drop the grip beforehand or assume you'll drop the grip seems like a mistake.

I recall watching the compilation video from the AFFJMCC back in the day where they show you all the bad things that happen on real AFF jumps. One of them involved an instructor dropping their grip before the actaul deployment, and the student having (I think) a PC in tow. The instructor tried to get back to the student but ran out of time. The student eventaully pulled silver, and the instructor and video guy pulled very low, but the point is that you're there until you can't be there anymore because the student slowed down beyond your minimum fall rate, and no sooner.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jul 18, 2011, 9:55 AM
Post #19 of 60 (3253 views)
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Re: [peek] Instructors. Is this what you would do? [In reply to] Can't Post

For Peek's review of what different instructors were taught, this is my Canadian experience, as a novice PFF Instructor:

In Canada for PFF I think the PFF Instructor courses vary a little more between course conductors. The official manual is getting very old, while a new one is being written. So we don't have a standardized "Bible" to consult.

One thing different from the US is that Main & Reserve side both stay with the student until he is pulled from their grasp. Main side normally releases one grip, to back off to allow for clear air during the pull.

This is more consistent with later jumps where the reserve side might not redock, while the main side supervises the student's pull.

If there's a PC hesistation, or hesitation of the bag lifting off, the main side will assist.

If there is a pilot chute in tow that isn't clearing, main side will pull the bridle away while the reserve side pulls the reserve ripcord.

The reserve side is taught about pulling the reserve ripcord in suitable emergencies, and indeed the main side is too (for a 1:1 etc). But it's the reserve side's job normally, and the main side can point to reserve side instructor to request a pull ("gun to reserve").

All this is from taking (& passing) the course twice with different instructors in 2005 and 2010, having let the temporary rating lapse the first time.

In neither course did we learn about pulling the cutaway handle. (Peeling a student's hand off the cutaway is another matter and is taught.)

Thus we didn't actually go through this thread's situation of a student having a baglock. That's a situation where the "main has deployed", and so it is normally now the student's responsibility to deal with a mal, yet, unusually, the student hasn't been pulled from one's grip.


As for the incident that started the thread, just some opinions:

I tend to lean towards the instructor(s) in such a situation leaving, as tough as it must be at the time to do. Sort of like a student going low -- hanging around doesn't help him realize the problem, and at some point it is up to the student.

This all makes sense IF one thinks that only dumping the reserve into the main does add a significant risk, and that pulling two different emergency handles is beyond what is expected of any instructor.

However:

If both instructors were present holding the student, reserve side could 'gun' to main side to pull the cutaway, if the instructors would be familiar with doing so. Let the RSL work but be ready for the reserve if it doesn't.

Or, an SOS system would be nice, just one handle to perform the correct emergency procedures.

Still, in practical terms there are often multiple reaonable and realistic things to do in freefall (like pulling the reserve), even if there is a single ideal textbook answer. In this case, we on this thread don't even know yet what the book says (if there is one), or what everyone has learned in their courses...


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jul 18, 2011, 10:12 AM
Post #20 of 60 (3244 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Instructors. Is this what you would do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
How about the option of letting the student deal with it (as opposed to just pulling the reserve)?

I'm not suggesting this option
In reply to:
Sure sounds like you are.

Sounds like you are in defensive mode here, Dave.
Nobody is out to shoot your AFF instructor.

I don't know of an AFFI course that trains handling every mal...from either side.

As things turned out, it turned out well in this case.

Just my opinion...
I don't understand why anyone would condone deploying a reserve into a bag lock when there other, and better, available options.

Divalent pretty much nailed it as far as available options and simply asked about a particular one.


Now my thoughts and reasons for it...
In reply to:
Of all the 'options' you listed, only one would be preferable to what actually happened, that being the student going through the full EPs.
Hard to argue that but, and it's a big BUT....

I'm sorry, Dave, but could you, in good conscience, step away and assume that the student will actually act as trained when your assistance could very well vastly improve the odds of a good outcome? I couldn't do that.


In reply to:
Any of the others represent either a worse outcome, or the same outcome at a lower altitude (which I guess is worse than what actually happened)...

Add to the situation that this was a high speed malfunction, and both the student and instructor were getting short on time....

Consider the actual altitude in this instance. It was not a "do or die" altitude. Consider the altitude loss involved with reaching under to pull a cutaway.

We are trained
AFF level 1 pull main at 5,500 ft.
Pull reserve at 3,999 ft.

At normal freefall speeds that's what, 7-8 seconds?

On case (pulled at 5.5K)
Say 2 seconds to recognize bag lock, 2 seconds clear attempt. 2 seconds cutaway. 1 second reserve pull.
We're at 4K or so...all's well.

Worse case (pulled at 5k):
Say 4 seconds to recognize bag lock, 4 seconds clear attempt. 2 seconds cutaway. 1 second reserve pull.
We're at 3.0K or so...all's well in the big scheme of things.


In reply to:
The instructor did what he had to do, and the student landed without injury, and returned for serveral successful jumps (and I expect many more).
Yep, it all turned out well and good on 'em.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jul 18, 2011, 10:45 AM
Post #21 of 60 (3229 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Instructors. Is this what you would do? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
We are trained
AFF level 1 pull main at 5,500 ft.
Instructor(s) pull main at 3,999 ft

changed to my (recent) training

we go to the reserve only in the event of a mal,
(btw - we have a setup with a main handle on both sides - on the left is for the instructor only, and the normal main Ripcord on the right)

main side leaves upon the pack opening (or the entire ripcord fully leaving the housing is another option) - reserve side rides through and deals with anything necessary - of course, with a single JM scenario - he stays and deals regardless of location

I like this thread, I haven't mentally trained on scenarios of a mal for the student while I'm holding on - though we have a SOS on our student gearUnimpressed, so our options are simplified (as well as the student's)

Now I am thinking on it and mentally practicing a bit


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jul 18, 2011, 10:50 AM)


labrys  (D 29848)

Jul 18, 2011, 8:14 PM
Post #22 of 60 (3091 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Instructors. Is this what you would do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I would have reached under and pulled the cutaway first, then the reserve.

This isn't intended to question your intentions at all, Andy. It's truly only a question about the physics of that response. Do you think that reaching across a student's chest in that circumstance and with the student equipped with an RSL, there might be some risk that you may entangle with the student as the RSL deploys the reserve? That could be a bad situation too.

The video shows the reserve side, who has had a fairly firm grip on the student with both hands through most of the skydive, release the student's arm to try to clear the baglock and then peel the reserve handle and wait a short time before actually pulling the handle. He seemed well clear of the student and at little risk of colliding with him during opening. That's a good thing for both of them, in my opinion.

I think the odds of the baglock fouling the reserve should be weighed against the odds of a 2 way funnel during opening.

I also know I have never been in the reserve side's shoes and from wear I stand looking, he did a great job.


AdD  (D License)

Jul 19, 2011, 6:35 AM
Post #23 of 60 (2972 views)
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Re: [Divalent] Instructors. Is this what you would do? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How about the option of letting the student deal with it (as opposed to just pulling the reserve)? Are AFF students so clueless that it would be unlikely they would do the right thing, so that it would be better to do a clearly suboptimum thing for them?


I agree, I would not interfere as the reserve side. You are opening yourself up to some serious liability issues by pulling someone's handles in the wrong order.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jul 19, 2011, 6:47 AM
Post #24 of 60 (2963 views)
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Re: [AdD] Instructors. Is this what you would do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I agree, I would not interfere as the reserve side. You are opening yourself up to some serious liability issues by pulling someone's handles in the wrong order

You're opening yourself up to some serious liability being an instructor in the first place. If you don't want the liability, don't do the job.

If you're going to leave the plane as an instructor, be ready to see it through to the end. In this country, that's the D licesne minimum pack opening altitude of 2k.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jul 19, 2011, 6:50 AM
Post #25 of 60 (2962 views)
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Re: [labrys] Instructors. Is this what you would do? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Do you think that reaching across a student's chest in that circumstance and with the student equipped with an RSL, there might be some risk that you may entangle with the student as the RSL deploys the reserve?

No, I don't think so at all. The risk of your scenario is much less than the risk of main/reserve entanglement, IMO. This instance was pretty doggone stable. The student was belly-to-earth.

My arm is longer than the width of his body. MY body is not getting over his back at all. Try it. Put your head in somebody's rib cage and see if you can reach the cutaway handle.

My hat is off to the RSJM for having the balls to stick his hands into all that flailing mess and trying to defeat the bag lock. THAT could have turned out really nasty. I'm not sure it was real smart, but it damn well was ballsy and a good indication that the guy was truly concerned about the well-being of his student.

You know, that's one of the things about AFFI. You gotta have a mindset that if things go to shit, you will have the balls to stick it in there and do what's necessary....even if it increases your chances for pain. And yes, there is a point of no return where you just have to hope that the student manages to save his own ass.

Who knows? Maybe, if the RSJM had done nothing, this student would have eventually realized his predicament and performed his own EPs in time to save his butt - cutaway and deploy the reserve.

Finally, what is the normal procedure for bag lock?
Cutaway and deploy the reserve.
So, what's the problem with doing that as a RSJM?
Why violate that procedure here? There was sufficient altitude to work with here. It wasn't a do-or-die, last-gasp situation.

I'm happy it all turned out so well. I just would have done it differently. I've trained my self to do that. So far, I've not had to as yet.
A few PCITs, two bag locks cleared and other things but no cutaway/deploy reserve required as yet.


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