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Small Format camera/AFF

 

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Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 9, 2011, 10:56 AM
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Small Format camera/AFF Can't Post

See attached. Discuss.
Attachments: AFFGoPro.jpg (185 KB)


EmuuuH  (D 31663)

Jul 9, 2011, 12:25 PM
Post #2 of 42 (6195 views)
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Re: [DSE] Small Format camera/AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice one!

Could have happened with almost every camera setup. But it's a lot easier with a gopro..

Maybe use this to make it a little safer:
http://www.chutingstar.com/...gopro-top-mount.html


crotalus01  (B 28932)

Jul 9, 2011, 12:29 PM
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Re: [DSE] Small Format camera/AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

Isn't outside video on an AFF jump frowned on as a serious distraction to the student?
I'm not an Instructor and I don't jump camera so no other comment on the pic, except that I would like to see that GoPro footage.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 9, 2011, 12:37 PM
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Re: [crotalus01] Small Format camera/AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Isn't outside video on an AFF jump frowned on as a serious distraction to the student?
I'm not an Instructor and I don't jump camera so no other comment on the pic, except that I would like to see that GoPro footage.

Only if the videographer makes him/herself a distraction. Outside video is very common on first jump AFF.
Which is worse for a student? The potential distraction of a videographer in the wrong place, or the potential PCIT/entanglement with an instructors helmet?

How's this for a scenario....(based on above image...)

Instructor causes student to go below hard deck because instructor doesn't want to break off camera so that the student main can deploy. Student freaks out and deploys reserve (or AAD fires) which then completes the pull for the main. An entanglement may ensue, and at the least a first jump student has a two-out due to an instructor's error.

Several scenarios, but that's a pretty bad one, isn't it?


(This post was edited by DSE on Jul 9, 2011, 4:27 PM)


VideoFly  (D 25621)

Jul 9, 2011, 1:11 PM
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Re: [DSE] Small Format camera/AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

Ive been going through many disastrous scenarios with this picture. The bottom line is that the instructor threw a snag point into the dive. I am curious about the sequence of events and only hope the GoPro broke off prior to the main releasing. This is a truly messed up situation.

Additionally, I have safely filmed hundreds of AFF jumps from outside camera position. It is very different than other types of filming with many potential hazards, most of which may be mitigated through excellent planning and communication with jumpmasters.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jul 10, 2011, 5:38 AM
Post #6 of 42 (6049 views)
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Re: [DSE] Small Format camera/AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
See attached. Discuss

Discuss what? A picture is worth a thousand words. Just for fun, I'll type out a couple of them...

Why is the AFF I wearing a GoPro when there's outside video on the jump? Video is a great tool for training/debrief, and I'm not opposed to instructors wearing a camera if there isn't outside video, but when there is, what's the point?

Did anyone even look at that helmet before he jumped it? Does that look like a good 'working' camera helmet, it in that it can be used on a working jump without interference? How did the instructor intend to get in tight if need be? How did he intend to dig his head into the student's ribs on exit if need be?

I'm not opposed to instructor-based POV video, but the first rule of ANY video, be it outside or inside, is to 'do no harm'. There is no video shot worth adding danger to the skydive, and this is what the instructor has done here.

As for the notion that outside video is a distraction on AFF jumps, and should be frowned upon, like many other things, it all depends on the camera flyer. A good camera flyer is following the dive flow, evaluating the student's body position, watching for hand signals, and judging the student's overall mental state. You then use that information to deciede how and when to introduce yourself to the student's field of view. You're only a distraction if the student can see you, so stay 'out of sight, out of mind' when it's called for, and get up in there when that's the right thing to do.


jtiflyer  (D 27430)

Jul 10, 2011, 6:05 AM
Post #7 of 42 (6035 views)
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Re: [DSE] Small Format camera/AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

Looks like the instructor was in the wrong place at pull time. Entanglements like this don't just happen with cameras. I saw an instructor get entangled in the PC 2 times in her first 10 AFF jumps. Thankfully she doesn't instruct any more.

I do agree with outside video present that the instructor has his camera there for vanity at that point.

I have to dis-agree with Dave though. Where I do AFF its all single jump master and video is required to be shot by the instructor. Its not hard to get in tight with the student if need be on exit or pull time. You simply don't dig the top of your helmet into the student but rather the forehead area instead. The camera only shoots the rig at that point but hey its a small price to pay for keeping the student stable.

Overall bad by the instructor for not being in the right place and taking a not needed hazard on the jump.


stratostar  (Student)

Jul 10, 2011, 6:34 AM
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Re: [DSE] Small Format camera/AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't see what all the fuss is about.....


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jul 10, 2011, 8:37 AM
Post #9 of 42 (5996 views)
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Re: [jtiflyer] Small Format camera/AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I have to dis-agree with Dave though. Where I do AFF its all single jump master and video is required to be shot by the instructor

I didn't say that instructors shouldn't shoot POV video, what I said was that a top mounted GoPro is the wrong choice for the jump.

Where I jump, every student jump has video, either outside or instructor. The DZ provides cameras and helmets for the instructors for this very purpose. For years it was PC 5 or 9s in a box on a Bonehead helmet. Both the supply and condition of the PC cameras have been suffering for a couple years, but without a suitable replacement, it's what we used. Even though the GoPro has been around for awhile, the format of the camera didn't fit the job.

This winter we upgraded to the Drift cameras. Same idea as the GoPro, no tape, high def, lightweight, etc, but the format of the camera lends itself to side mounting which is a far better option for an instructor than a top mount.

I do agree with your point that the instructor was in the wrong place. Once the student has their hand on the PC, the main side should be holding the harness grip at arms length, to prevent just such an occurance. This also helps to get some clean air above the student for the initial toss, and then the main side should depart fully in order to allow for a clean deployment. The instructor in the photo is maintaining a grip even though the student has thrown the PC. I am 100% sure that the main side has no idea the bridle is stuck on his GoPro at the time of the photo. Poor equipment choice and poor technique.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 10, 2011, 8:52 AM
Post #10 of 42 (5992 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Small Format camera/AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Discuss what? A picture is worth a thousand words.

the point of this thread was to talk about;
~How it might have happened
~Why it happened
~What else could potentially go wrong
~How it might have been prevented

Sure...obviously bad. But why not use it as a learning tool beyond just the photo itself? You and others have a lot of good experience and insight for others to learn from.


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)

Jul 10, 2011, 11:05 AM
Post #11 of 42 (5961 views)
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Re: [DSE] Small Format camera/AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

If anyone has a link the outside video footage I would like to see it.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 10, 2011, 11:23 AM
Post #12 of 42 (5953 views)
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Re: [slotperfect] Small Format camera/AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

you might wanna ask the S&T committee...I suspect they have it if anyone there does.


AdD  (D License)

Jul 11, 2011, 11:18 AM
Post #13 of 42 (5790 views)
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Re: [DSE] Small Format camera/AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

What was the outcome of this?


DBCOOPER  (D 24112)

Jul 11, 2011, 12:38 PM
Post #14 of 42 (5755 views)
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Re: [DSE] Small Format camera/AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

Looks like reserve side is wearing a belly mount gopro, maybe its an altimeter...

I thought it was proper form to wear an openface helmet and clear goggles when doing aff...

Isn't main side supposed to be gone by this point?

In theory it could have just a easily gone around his neck...



Looks like it could have been photochopped...


hallux  (C License)

Jul 11, 2011, 2:30 PM
Post #15 of 42 (5713 views)
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Re: [DBCOOPER] Small Format camera/AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

if the picture is real then the outcome was more than likely the bridle immediately slide out from under the camera when it lifted the instructors head. In this scenario I have to imagine it could have just as easily been under his chin. He was probably a little high and a little close during the pull. All I see is that stuff can happen if you choose to make skydiving a part of your life. He will probably never wear the gopro again on AFF. Without a real incident report this is nothing more than a grainy pic pulled off the internet with crappy block font photoshopped on it


Deisel  (D 31661)

Jul 11, 2011, 6:59 PM
Post #16 of 42 (5675 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Small Format camera/AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

Dave,
Can you post pics or a link that shows your AFF camera set up? I've looked for the Drift but can't find one on the gear websites. From what you describe it souds like a Contour. What's the difference?

ETA - lifted this from another thread about the Drift. http://www.chutingstar.com/...-stealth-camera.html
D


(This post was edited by Deisel on Jul 11, 2011, 7:07 PM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 11, 2011, 7:22 PM
Post #17 of 42 (5670 views)
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Re: [AdD] Small Format camera/AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know the outcome; the photo was provided to me from someone who was at the USPA BOD meeting, which is apparently where this surfaced.


nigel99  (D 1)

Jul 12, 2011, 3:22 AM
Post #18 of 42 (5621 views)
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Re: [DSE] Small Format camera/AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't know the outcome; the photo was provided to me from someone who was at the USPA BOD meeting, which is apparently where this surfaced.

Is there a chance this was in Germany or a German speaking country at least?

"und" is German for and.

It doesn't help with the discussion but may help with finding more information.


CaTo  (D 81811)

Jul 12, 2011, 5:18 AM
Post #19 of 42 (5598 views)
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Re: [Deisel] Small Format camera/AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've looked for the Drift but can't find one on the gear websites. From what you describe it souds like a Contour. What's the difference?

i have been using the drift for quite some time now, nice camera with some nice features:

- direct view-back via little screen on camera
- cable connection from drift directly to TV (cinch)
- storage on SD card
- usb connection for link to PC
- remote control to start/stop recording
- standard camera srew-attachement possible
- operated on two standard AA batteries (looooong life)
- 170 degree wideangle (so no eye-sight needed :-)
- turnable lens

I am using the standard version (no HD) but the footage is good enough for debrief. It can record on 16x9 or 4x3

no picture yet, but I am using it as bellycam and also on top of a vapor narrow. Others have attached in on several other types of helmets.


AdD  (D License)

Jul 12, 2011, 9:16 AM
Post #20 of 42 (5535 views)
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Re: [DSE] Small Format camera/AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess if it didn't unwrap either your gopro is going to rip off or you'd better get out of that helmet.


ghostlybadge  (C 109285)

Jul 14, 2011, 2:24 PM
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Re: [AdD] Small Format camera/AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

Schaffen in Belgium if memory serves me right

oh and the PC came detacched half a second later by the way


(This post was edited by ghostlybadge on Jul 14, 2011, 2:26 PM)


jrjny  (A License)

Jul 14, 2011, 5:05 PM
Post #22 of 42 (5338 views)
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Re: [DSE] Small Format camera/AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

See - makes a case for the AFF student to wear it :-)


SRI85  (D License)

Jul 14, 2011, 6:25 PM
Post #23 of 42 (5328 views)
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Re: [DSE] Small Format camera/AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

i bet he cleared it really quick. no big deal, easily preventable next time around.


Chris_K  (C 3228)

Jul 15, 2011, 8:47 AM
Post #24 of 42 (5259 views)
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Re: [SRI85] Small Format camera/AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

There are mounts for the go pro that prevent anything from catching under the camera. This is also a simple solution.

Someone mentioned the side mount camera, but I have seen that snag as well. Obviously the safe way to go is no cameras at all, but the quality of the de-briefs suffer for it.

The overall issues with this picture are:

1. He should have spent the money on a proper, no snag mount for the go pro.

2. He should move backwards while holding the harness to minimize the burble and give room for the student to throw.

3. Take your camera off if you have outside video.

4. Be aware of what stage of the skydive you are at and fly accordingly.


blueskyflyer  (D 30812)

Mar 25, 2013, 7:53 PM
Post #25 of 42 (3795 views)
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Re: [DSE] Small Format camera/AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

http://vimeo.com/36713530


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