Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
My first scare. Toggle turn stall and line twist.

 


ttribe  (A 61533)

Jun 14, 2011, 12:45 PM
Post #1 of 17 (3205 views)
Shortcut
My first scare. Toggle turn stall and line twist. Can't Post

I am E-2 AFF student. I have had extremely good luck on all my jumps, passing with ease, stand up landings, etc.

First off, I have a new found respect for canopy control and a canopy course will be the first thing I seek out after I get my A license.

With the student rig, my last 5 jumps, i have been playing with deep toggle turns, 360 to 720, etc. Full toggle on other side. I has never been a problem and I always felt comfortable and in control.

On my 2nd jump of the day last weekend, I was under canopy by 4000ft, did my controlability check and made my way to the "play area." Around 3200 ft, I pulled my right toggle to about the middle of my rib cage, canopy started to turn and dive (to the right) then I felt what i am guessing was a stall... i was turning right, but my body twisted left, the canopy was at least partially deflated. By 2600 feet the canopy had resumed normal flight and by 23 or 2400 feet I had kicked out of the line twist.

Scared the hell out of me, I was a second away from chopping it.

Nobody on the ground had seen what happened and my AFF instructor had'nt landed yet, So all I could do was describe it to them like I am describing it here.

Winds were gusty, which was a first for me. Normally they are steady 5 to 18mph. On a side not, the winds had completely shifted from out of the south to out of the east between when my instructor landed and when i landed.

Im not positive, but i "think" i quickly released the toggle after the stall, which i have read can make it worse.

I wanted to share this and see if anybody can tell me what probably happened, if the gusty winds was a factor, etc. Why i have been turning full toggle with no problem, but this half toggle turn put me out of control, etc.

Thanks for any advice!


in2jumping  (C License)

Jun 14, 2011, 3:34 PM
Post #2 of 17 (3122 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ttribe] My first scare. Toggle turn stall and line twist. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I pulled my right toggle to about the middle of my rib cage, canopy started to turn and dive (to the right) then I felt what i am guessing was a stall...!

Was this a fast and aggressive toggle input?

Sounds like you just simply turned yourself into line twist with an aggressive toggle turn. I managed to do this on a .7 loaded 320sqf canopy once.

Think a few year back there was a fatality at the Farm from someone spinning themselves up into line twists at low alt followed by a low cutting away.

Also saw a good friend who was pissed about going low on our 12 way spin his Sabre into line twist at 1000' after an aggressive toggle turn. Was kind of scary watching someone chop at 1000' right next to you.

Be careful with fast and aggressive toggle inputs, specially at low altitudes.


(This post was edited by in2jumping on Jun 14, 2011, 3:39 PM)


theonlyski  (D License)

Jun 14, 2011, 4:14 PM
Post #3 of 17 (3100 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ttribe] My first scare. Toggle turn stall and line twist. [In reply to] Can't Post

Sounds like you turned too fast (non progressively) and ended up losing tension on your lines. I've done it before, pretty scary stuff under 1000'!

Now you know the feeling, you can tell when you're turning too fast and dial it back a bit to keep tension on the lines.


kaustik  (Student)

Jun 14, 2011, 5:37 PM
Post #4 of 17 (3069 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ttribe] My first scare. Toggle turn stall and line twist. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Nobody on the ground had seen what happened and my AFF instructor had'nt landed yet, So all I could do was describe it to them like I am describing it here.

No one here saw it either. At your experience level, the only advice you should be seeking out is that of your instructors.


ttribe  (A 61533)

Jun 14, 2011, 6:18 PM
Post #5 of 17 (3054 views)
Shortcut
Re: [in2jumping] My first scare. Toggle turn stall and line twist. [In reply to] Can't Post

it was pretty aggressive. WL is 1:1. I will talk to the instructors about it more on Friday, I better bring a cooler full.


vortexr1  (D License)

Jul 9, 2011, 9:05 PM
Post #6 of 17 (2749 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ttribe] My first scare. Toggle turn stall and line twist. [In reply to] Can't Post

Sounds scary as hell .Id stop jumping..J/K..Just fly your canopy and Stop flying in brakes.You have plenty of time for that later...Shocked


yoink

Jul 11, 2011, 5:46 PM
Post #7 of 17 (2606 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ttribe] My first scare. Toggle turn stall and line twist. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
it was pretty aggressive.



Other than digging deep into both brakes to get yourself out of an impact, I can't think of any time when aggressive, sudden inputs are a better option than smoth progressive ones.

Slow is fast. Wink


Calvin19  (D 29712)

Jul 13, 2011, 1:21 PM
Post #8 of 17 (2428 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ttribe] My first scare. Toggle turn stall and line twist. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I am E-2 AFF student. I have had extremely good luck on all my jumps, passing with ease, stand up landings, etc.

First off, I have a new found respect for canopy control and a canopy course will be the first thing I seek out after I get my A license.

With the student rig, my last 5 jumps, i have been playing with deep toggle turns, 360 to 720, etc. Full toggle on other side. I has never been a problem and I always felt comfortable and in control.

On my 2nd jump of the day last weekend, I was under canopy by 4000ft, did my controlability check and made my way to the "play area." Around 3200 ft, I pulled my right toggle to about the middle of my rib cage, canopy started to turn and dive (to the right) then I felt what i am guessing was a stall... i was turning right, but my body twisted left, the canopy was at least partially deflated. By 2600 feet the canopy had resumed normal flight and by 23 or 2400 feet I had kicked out of the line twist.

Scared the hell out of me, I was a second away from chopping it.

Nobody on the ground had seen what happened and my AFF instructor had'nt landed yet, So all I could do was describe it to them like I am describing it here.

Winds were gusty, which was a first for me. Normally they are steady 5 to 18mph. On a side not, the winds had completely shifted from out of the south to out of the east between when my instructor landed and when i landed.

Im not positive, but i "think" i quickly released the toggle after the stall, which i have read can make it worse.

I wanted to share this and see if anybody can tell me what probably happened, if the gusty winds was a factor, etc. Why i have been turning full toggle with no problem, but this half toggle turn put me out of control, etc.

Thanks for any advice!

It actually kinda sounds like you did a SAT entry, not usually possible to do a clean one on skydiving canopies. here is a similar thing I did jumping one of my OZONE Bullet speed gliders a year or so ago.
http://vimeo.com/16226960


PiLFy  (A License)

Jul 13, 2011, 5:31 PM
Post #9 of 17 (2405 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ttribe] My first scare. Toggle turn stall and line twist. [In reply to] Can't Post

I am E-2 AFF student....it was pretty aggressive. WL is 1:1.


Shocked ?! Shocked


Prior23  (B 34434)

Jul 14, 2011, 11:56 AM
Post #10 of 17 (2363 views)
Shortcut
Re: [PiLFy] My first scare. Toggle turn stall and line twist. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I am E-2 AFF student....it was pretty aggressive. WL is 1:1.


Shocked ?! Shocked
?...


PiLFy  (A License)

Jul 14, 2011, 1:36 PM
Post #11 of 17 (2352 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Prior23] My first scare. Toggle turn stall and line twist. [In reply to] Can't Post

My mistake. I was tired, & thought I saw 1.1:1 WL. I was surprised an AFF student was allowed to jump a higher WL. My program was much more conservative.


Zlew  (D 21616)

Jul 18, 2011, 11:31 AM
Post #12 of 17 (2278 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ttribe] My first scare. Toggle turn stall and line twist. [In reply to] Can't Post

I did the same thing when I was a student. Big canopies, long lines... it can be less hard than you think to get the canopy turning faster than your body can keep up with. Scary stuff!


waveoff5500  (D 32087)

Jul 26, 2011, 6:36 PM
Post #13 of 17 (2158 views)
Shortcut
My first scare. Toggle turn stall and line twist. [In reply to] Can't Post

im pretty sure it says somewhere in one of the CATs to be careful because aggressive turns can put you into line twists, especially when doing reverse turns, idk if youve gotten to those yet, but be careful when you do if you put yourself into line twists with a half toggle turn.


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Jul 26, 2011, 9:08 PM
Post #14 of 17 (2138 views)
Shortcut
Re: [waveoff5500] My first scare. Toggle turn stall and line twist. [In reply to] Can't Post

Exactly how I had my first cutaway on jump #12. Crazy


zephyrzone  (B 36628)

Jul 29, 2011, 9:29 PM
Post #15 of 17 (2060 views)
Shortcut
Re: [danielcroft] My first scare. Toggle turn stall and line twist. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Exactly how I had my first cutaway on jump #12. Crazy

Whoa, I did this too on my jump #12 (last weekend). I went from a student rig to rental gear. A PD-210 with a .9 WL. I was playing with the canopy; practicing stalls and recovery, 360 rotation for A license, etc.

Being new and not having nearly enough respect for canopy control, I buried the left toggle FAST with the intention of doing an aggressive turn to get a feel for it. Instead, I whipped around a couple of times and when I looked up the lines were twisted. 2000ft. I remembered the training and kicked LIKE A MOFO to unwind them, which, thank heavens, worked. I absolutely did not want to cutaway that low, and on my 12th jump no less.

Here's what I learned:

1- I was a freaking idiot without enough respect for canopy control

2- It's way too soon in my jumping days to be fooling with aggressive maneuvers

3- SLOW is FAST

4- Under no circumstances will I be making "fun" maneuvers under 2500 feet until I have the skills to do it.

I don't recall being very scared (reference the point about me being an idiot), but mostly because I went into full-on "robot mode" and did exactly what I was taught to do. Had I panicked, I would have chopped, which would have been the wrong thing to do and unnecessary.

I feel like I learned a hell of a lot from that jump. I'm angry with myself for not having more caution, but I walked away from it and am much better/safer for having gone through it.


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Jul 30, 2011, 6:49 PM
Post #16 of 17 (2025 views)
Shortcut
Re: [zephyrzone] My first scare. Toggle turn stall and line twist. [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, I swore a lot, I'm sure that helped.


cube  (D License)

Aug 30, 2011, 3:57 PM
Post #17 of 17 (1805 views)
Shortcut
Re: [danielcroft] My first scare. Toggle turn stall and line twist. [In reply to] Can't Post

I too got myself in linetwists and chopped 'cause of them when I was a student. Be smooth.



Forums : Skydiving Disciplines : Swooping and Canopy Control

 


Search for (options)