Sep 10, 2001, 11:27 PM
Post #1 of 44
When the landing patterns that are currently taught to students were developed nearly everyone took the same kind of approach. Now that high performance landings are more common shouldn't we rethink our traffic plans to take into consideration high performance landings?
I don't think that the basic landing pattern needs to be changed. I think it is still the safest way for beginners (myself included) to come in for landing. What is needed is seperate landing areas for high performance landings and standard landings.
Wesley -- I'll see you at 13,5 amongst the clouds.
I feel that the current system works well.. I normally fly a left hand pattern, but if I see that there is a conflict(such as a bunch of slower canopies on a left pattern), I will adjust accordingly.. If that means a right hand pattern, fine.. If it means a much wider pattern, and making a straight in landing rather than my normal, fine.. If it means landing in another area entirely, that's fine too.. I will not compromise safety(mine or anybody elses) just so that I can make my normal approach.. I think most people making high performance landings feel the same..
Hooker cutting people off - ouch -- oh wait not a bobbett thing here.... actually if a person doing ahigh performance landing cuts someone off, they are not flying the landing pattern set up. It's possible to have everyone land in the same area, as long as everyone is flying the same pattern. albeit, a high perfomance 270 turn to final really confuses the heck out of some people up above.
That is not the case at Raeford. We have a LOT of student traffic and if you cause one of them to smack in, then it's your ass. It is just like the rules of the waterways: less maneuverable chutes have right of way.
My mentor taught me, and now I teach everyone else I run into: landing pattern is not important, timing is. If two people are landing and one lands at 5:01, and the other at 5:02, what difference does it make which direction they are headed? The goal of every jumper on a load should be to find his place in the stack of people waiting to land. If there is someone slower in front of you, either float in brakes until he lands, of spiral past him. Landing patterns are just icing on the cake (and certainly make things much safer) but if everyone lands in order, then you can't possibly have a problem.
seperate landing areas are a good idea. My reasoning why: this past weekend we had a landing collision between two jumpers. one jumper was an 'experienced' jumper, flying a higher performance canopy. The other jumper was a bit of a 'newbie'. the 'newbie' landed right near the deck. The 'experienced' jumper did his hook turn and came in for a nice landing. that is until he landed into the other guys canopy and dragged the guy a distance. The 'newbie' shouldnt have tried landing near the hanger, thats where all the higher performance canopy pilots land, and besides that, their are obstacles there (a runway to the left, buildings there, trees, a industrial sight to the right etc etc). There is a huge field connected to this area, where the only obstacles are woods, and the field is large enough to stay over the grass and still not hit the trees with a LONGGG final approach. Its almost always empty/ very light as far as landing traffic goes. The 'newbie' flew and landed his slower canopy in an area where people are whipping in. The experienced jumper was already into his hookturn and about to land... maybe it could have been avoided, maybe it couldnt have. I dont know. but what i do know is that I dont land near the hanger for a reason... and thats my reason. as far as landing patterns go: safely landing your canopy is the best landing pattern ive found so far. I was a 'must use a left hand pattern' girl until the day that i shouldnt have. I still did, but it really shortened my downwind/base/final. So after that i purposely began practicing weird patterns, and letting the other people on the load KNOW what i was doing. eliminating a holding area, or not doing a downwind or not doing a base, or just going into final. So that when the time comes i can do it and not freak. And the time came, and i did it, and i didnt freak. this is just my method. ask your S&TA. hes the one responsible for safety on your dz afterall.
(This post was edited by Kelly on Sep 24, 2001, 2:26 PM)
Most DZ's that I've been to have separate landing areas - usually at least one very large area, and several smaller.. Most experienced jumpers want to land in the small areas right next to the hangar....but, unfortunately, so do most other people.. Then we begin to see a dangerous mix of very fast, high performance canopies, and slow, large canopies.. For me, that's when the "traditional" traffic pattern goes out the window.. I fly what keeps me(and everybody else) safe - period.. I'm flying a moderately loaded elliptical - a Crossfire at almost 1.6 - so things happen fairly fast....especially when you mix in much slower canopies.. At my home DZ, it's no problem - the landing area is huge, and everybody has plenty of room.. At some other DZ's, when you get 20+ people in the air, with a small landing area that everybody heads for, it can get kinda hairy.. I don't think that dedicating certain landing areas for specific types of canopies/wing loadings is a very smart move - many very experienced jumpers are jumping lightly loaded canopies due to injuries or just a conservative nature.. I do, however, believe that certain landing areas can have requirements - such as a minimum number of jumps.. The more experienced a person is, the better their judgement(hopefully), and the more they understand what's going on..
Bottom line, IMO.....It's up to the jumpers on the faster, more maneuverable canopies to avoid the slower, less maneuverable canopies..
Hi Dan. IMO, having no landing pattern may work fine at a cessna dz with only 6 max in the air, but when doing big-ways with say, 20+ people all pulling at the same altitude, a landing pattern is very important.
Nope, my canopy is too new....the serial number starts with 269, and the highest number listed is in the low 268xxxxxx range.. I have noticed no buffeting, but after talking to Perry this past weekend, I'm gonna go put it through some hard 720's and see what it does......at altitude, of course..
billvon (D 16479)
Sep 26, 2001, 9:41 AM
Post #16 of 44
------------------------------ one jumper was an 'experienced' jumper, flying a higher performance canopy. The other jumper was a bit of a 'newbie'. the 'newbie' landed right near the deck. The 'experienced' jumper did his hook turn and came in for a nice landing. that is until he landed into the other guys canopy and dragged the guy a distance. The 'newbie' shouldnt have tried landing near the hanger, thats where all the higher performance canopy pilots land, and besides that, their are obstacles there (a runway to the left, buildings there, trees, a industrial sight to the right etc etc).
There may well have been reasons for the newbie not to land near the hangar, but the collision was the fault of the experienced jumper, not the newbie. You must clear your landing area before you hook. If you can't, you don't hook.
I completely agree. I did not mean to say that everyone should not land in the same direction (whatever that direction may be). The problem I see is that students are taught landing pattern, landing pattern, landing pattern, and learn nothing about maintaining vertical separation with others in the pattern.
At my DZ (Twin Otter, but still fairly small) we endeavor to combine both a landing pattern and stacked landings. When someone violates one, he is probably okay (although still reprimanded) if he sticks to the other. Safe landing needs to be a combination of horizontal (landing pattern) and vertical (landing timing) separation.
i had the good fortune to jump at perris this past labor day and got to see first hand landing patern and landing area diffrences..... the "grass" landing area is a 1 diresction only landing area and you follow the first jumper to land there's direction... if ya don't want to vie for a sopt on the grass land a little farther out....i also saw a "canopy colision" where a tandem landed and thier chut was just colapsing and an experianced jumper came screaming in on a monster surf and ran right into the canopy of the tandem with his feet. his landing area wasn't "clear" like stated above...... it's sorta hard to figure out the whole landing "patern" thing without seeing it for yourself...i normally jump at a cessna dz and when all 5 of us are in the air it's no problem.....but when ya get 20+ canopies in the air it gets way diffrent.....lots more to think about besides.."man that sunset looks cool........"
<wingnut> "up my noooossseee"- wingnut, at first euro dz.com boogie
This is a bad subject! Causes lots of discussion. I can tell you at my home DZ (Skydive Atlanta) we have two seperate landing areas. One is little used anymore because of some construction. It used to be the student/A/B landing area although not everyone holding those licenses always lands there. I do....Why.....it's less crowded! Period. It's easier for me to practice hooking (I'm still a beginner) Landing in traffic sucks! Follow the damn pattern assholes!
"This conversation ends right here Captain! You can talk to the ALO when he gets back."-Me Clay
This is exactly what we don't need here. How is it a bad subject because it causes a lot of discussion. Isn't that the point of the forum? We also don't need flaming as in just "follow the pattern assholes". We are trying to gain insight and continue to develop knowledge on how to keep skydiving safe. Not all DZ's have seperate landing areas.
As for everyone else, I respect and appreciate the input you have given even if I don't agree with it. The reason I started this thread was because of a problem we tend to have at our drop zone. People are taught to do S turns if they are going to over shoot the target. If this person is on a large slow canopy and they make very large S turns it can be very difficult for someone who is much faster coming in to land from behind and above. I agree it is the responsibility of the faster canopy pilot to avoid the slower one. Our problem is that we have had a whole group of people have to land in a tight area at the edge of the landing area to avoid one person. This makes them land very close to one another in an already tight place. While this has worked so far, It would be much better if we taught the person flying the slow canopy different techniques to loose altitude and not overshoot the target.
Last weekend, during a "big way" camp (I'm not sure how big, just lots of canopies...and two planes), there was a lot of confusion on the landing pattern. At Perris, if there is no wind, the pattern is from the south to the north.
There was one formation load (two planes) which came down, no winds, but the first two folks down crossed each other. Which set up for the wildest few minutes I have seen (granted, I have not seen a lot). Some people had seen the first guy go from the south, others had only seen the guy from the north. Manifest was talking on the loudspeaker about how to watch your landing pattern and reminding us of the proper landing pattern, when two canopies actually collided. The corners of the canopies hit each other, both collapsed, and both jumpers came down hard. Neither one was seriously hurt, nothing broken or anything, thank God, because they both remembered to go right (just enough time to make it so bodies wouldn't hit each other). But I sat there and watched two canopies repeat a poor pattern, and almost kill each other. And because this was a camp load, there were no newer people on these loads.
I have a few observations. As a really new person, perhaps I missed something in the above posts (wouldn't be the first time), but isn't loading supposed to have the slower, newer jumpers go towards the end of the jump run? I mean, if the slower canopies/high pullers/students are out last, what is the guy on the 107 doing in the air with them, unless they are instructors, who should know how many big assed canopies are in the air and be able to avoid them? Doesn't your jump start on the ground before boarding the plane? And if the guy on the 107 is in the air with us and is not an instructor, the responsibility is his because he is choosing his partners in the air, which, in this case, would be the newer, slower jumpers.
As to us newbies learning about S turns, that's what we're taught. I also have learned that I am still pretty unpredictible in the air, because I forget things, like base leg starting point, winds being a big factor.....I rely on the more experienced jumpers to avoid me whenever they are in the air with me. And to their credit, I have never had even a close call during landing because of another jumper (I have had close calls because of me, but not because of others.)
And my last point is simply that if people are following the correct landing pattern set by the dz, and not by the jumper in front of them, they should be o.k. I mean, I learned the hard way when I followed someone in, and ended up doing a dramatic downwinder. That is the last time I rely on someone else to determine my landing direction. And air awareness is something which is developed gradually. I don't think it springs full blown into a new jumpers mind after, say, three or four jumps. But if we think we are safe when following the more experienced jumpers down, we're not thinking. Everyone needs to make their decisions based on the rules of the dz, and the conditions in the air, not Joe /JaneJumper in front of them. Lemminghood is for lemmings, not for jumpers.
Just my thoughts, and, as stated, observations.
Ciel bleu- Michele
"What of the dreams that never die? Turn to your left at the end of the sky". ~e e cummings~
phreezone (D License)
Sep 29, 2001, 10:53 AM
Post #22 of 44
One of the problems comes in that you can place older jumpers in Larfer gear in bid ways so now they are exiting first then you get a frrefly big way going out next. Most frrefliers tend to be jumping fairly advanced gear and place lots of demands on it. So now youv'e got a big way (say 8) pulling at 3k and the freefliers say pull at 3500. Now in addtion to your own groups traffice the freefliers now need to intergrate with the big ways traffic pattern. When you have jumpers jumping Falcons and large canopies then freefliers/ hot shot pilots will need to enter the pattern at a higher altitude and then will need to say with the pattern for longer amounts of time. Since its hard to keep a sub 100 canopy flying with a Falcon most pilots just blow by the larger canopies and spirl down and land. the problem comes when the pilot of the falcon decides to spirl before the sub100 canopy can. then they will pass at a much lower altitude when everyone is setting up for thier finals. Lesson of the story.... Jumping a smaller canopy takes lots of skill and awareness but not all of the blame can rest on the pilot who flys a moderate canopy but has to fight with larger canopeis because their pilots flew them out of the pattern.
Be safe, be smooth, be fast..... and most importantly.... be phree
At Perris, if there is no wind, the pattern is from the south to the north.
Well, since it was a camp, chances are there were many jumpers there that are not locals, and it may have been their first time jumping at Perris.....are you sure that every one of them was briefed on that fact? That could be a good reason for them landing the "wrong way" when there's no wind..
In reply to:
As a really new person, perhaps I missed something in the above posts (wouldn't be the first time), but isn't loading supposed to have the slower, newer jumpers go towards the end of the jump run? I mean, if the slower canopies/high pullers/students are out last, what is the guy on the 107 doing in the air with them, unless they are instructors, who should know how many big assed canopies are in the air and be able to avoid them?
I don't know how they do it at Perris, but here's how many DZ's do it.. Belly fliers(with the exception of high pulls, students, and tandems) go out first - large groups, then smaller groups.. That may include a 2 way with one person having 20 jumps, on a big, slow rental canopy.. Freefliers go out next.....and I'm sure you know the stereotype about freefliers all jumping hankerchief mains and wearing cameras, right? Again, big groups first, then smaller groups.. Next out are high pullers(generally above 3.5k), then students, and tandems..
See how you can end up with much higher experienced jumpers on tiny mains exiting after lower experienced people on huge canopies? Again - I don't know how they do it at Perris, but this is how many DZ's arrange exit orders..
In reply to:
As to us newbies learning about S turns, that's what we're taught.
Hey - that's cool with me.....do what you need to do.. Most DZ's have either a huge landing area, or they have separate areas for newbies and experienced jumpers.. I think the previous poster was saying that they have newbies landing in a pretty small area, with all the experienced jumpers, doing this.. Well, IMO, newbies shouldn't be landing in a small area to begin with - it can be tough sometimes to put a canopy in a fairly small area with lots of traffic around, and they shouldn't have to deal with that while learning..
Bottom line, as far as I'm concerned, is that the experienced jumpers avoid the less experienced, and those on larger, slower canopies.. It CAN be kinda tough at times, but proper planning and judgement will solve that problem..
In reply to:
And my last point is simply that if people are following the correct landing pattern set by the dz, and not by the jumper in front of them, they should be o.k. I mean, I learned the hard way when I followed someone in, and ended up doing a dramatic downwinder.
At many DZ's, the landing direction is set by the first person down.....even if they downwind it.. Often this is because the landing area is small and people landing different directions will certainly cause an accident.. Landing downwind is survivable - hitting another body at a relative speed of 50mph is probably not.. If somebody sets the landing direction, and it's wrong, those that choose to land in a different direction are expected to land in another area.. I'll tell ya this much - if I have to land downwind because somebody set the landing direction that way, and there are no good alternate landing areas, that person and I are going to have some words.. I have to run my canopy out with no wind....downwind landings can be pretty frightening..
I don't necessarily agree with the policy of first down sets the pattern, but at some DZ's, it's a necessity.. Not at Perris, though - the landing area there is huge.. If somebody sets the landing direction wrong, land in a more remote area, and land the right direction..
Mike I was in the camp that Michelle was describing and I was the EMT responding to the injury. I also had a "near" miss (I hit the breaks and pulled up with no surf and stopped 15' short and let the Wrong way flier go). The problem was initiated by exactly the situation that you described. Light wind and variable, the camp organizer gets down first by 2 seconds and sets the standard South to north pattern. NExt a out of town jumper from our camp comes in and does a 260 hook and lands north to south. That started the caos. Out of the next 10 jumpers landing there were at least 3 crosses. Fortunately the only injury was a dislocated toe on the one colision but it could have been worse. At Perris the pattern is set by the first person down, PERIOD. IF you don't like the pattern you land off the grass any way you like. I think that most DZ have a rule like this. However, we still need to take resonsibility for our own pattern. First, try to land in the standard pattern. If you can't try to land off the main area so you don't criss cross. Second, if you are flying a basic pattern (down wind, base, final) make the big corrections in the down wind and base and only little corrections on final. Flying a calm and predictable pattern allows others to fit in and compensate for different rates of the canopies. People who are hooking should set up out of the pattern adn be very aware of the people, in the patttern. Finally, if there is any doubt land long or short or off the main area. A dirty canopy or a few stickers is a small thing but a broken leg will keep you out of the air for a long time. REMEBER: the universal sign for I see you under canopy is kicking legs and if there is a canopy coming at you both turn RIGHT.
See, I love these boards. Why? Because I get to learn, learn, learn.....
In reply to:
IF you don't like the pattern you land off the grass any way you like.
I didn't know this. And I have only done the grass on 3 of my 23 jumps. And two of those were accidental (over shot), and while they were stand-ups they were while on student status. Only once did I say - "I'll go grass", and that was when I was last out, on a 240.....I swear I was the only one in the air.
In reply to:
make the big corrections in the down wind and base and only little corrections on final.
Jake by me.....I tend to not make big corrections once I start my pattern...perhaps that's why I am not as consistent as I would like...lol...
So, let me see if I've got this right. If I am not going to be landing in the same direction as everyone else I should land off the big circle, and away from the grass, right? Or can I still go for the circle?
This is sooooo great for me. I am such a weenie in the air, and can use all the advice gleaned from these boards.
"What of the dreams that never die? Turn to your left at the end of the sky". ~e e cummings~