Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
Were you financially impacted by the Argus Ban?

 

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Gravit8

Jul 4, 2011, 6:03 AM
Post #1 of 73 (2002 views)
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Were you financially impacted by the Argus Ban? Can't Post

I'm looking for anyone financially impacted by the Argus ban. I would very much like to find businesses (dropzones, tandem operators, and dz shops) that have realized demonstrable financial loss as a result of manufacturer issued service bulletins and dropzone bans. Also, please let me know if you have been forced to replace a serviceable Argus AAD with a competing brand due to a manufacturer service bulletin (I only want legitimate situations where you paid money to replace your AAD as a result of a SB or ban).

For example, if your DZ banned the AAD and you were forced to replace it to continue jumping, please let me know.
If you have a tandem program or student program where FAA law requires an AAD in the rig and you were forced to replace them and paid to do so, PLEASE let me know.

If these manufacturer service bulletins have caused you to spend money in order to maintain your ability to keep a business open, please let me know immediately.


piisfish

Jul 4, 2011, 6:17 AM
Post #2 of 73 (1979 views)
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Re: [Gravit8] Were you financially impacted by the Argus Ban? [In reply to] Can't Post

planning to sue them ?
seriously ?

get out of here please. Unimpressed


hcsvader  (E 2952)

Jul 4, 2011, 6:29 AM
Post #3 of 73 (1972 views)
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Re: [Gravit8] Were you financially impacted by the Argus Ban? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yup, had to sell my unit at a discounted price and buy another AAD. But that was due to the APF grounding them (nov/10) and not the manufacturer.


Skybear

Jul 4, 2011, 8:06 AM
Post #4 of 73 (1919 views)
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Re: [piisfish] Were you financially impacted by the Argus Ban? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
planning to sue them ?
seriously ?

get out of here please. Unimpressed

+1

This will help nobody. It will just make skydiving more expensive than it already is.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Jul 4, 2011, 8:52 AM
Post #5 of 73 (1891 views)
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Re: [Gravit8] Were you financially impacted by the Argus Ban? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm looking for anyone financially impacted by the Argus ban. I would very much like to find businesses (dropzones, tandem operators, and dz shops) that have realized demonstrable financial loss as a result of manufacturer issued service bulletins and dropzone bans. Also, please let me know if you have been forced to replace a serviceable Argus AAD with a competing brand due to a manufacturer service bulletin (I only want legitimate situations where you paid money to replace your AAD as a result of a SB or ban).

For example, if your DZ banned the AAD and you were forced to replace it to continue jumping, please let me know.
If you have a tandem program or student program where FAA law requires an AAD in the rig and you were forced to replace them and paid to do so, PLEASE let me know.

If these manufacturer service bulletins have caused you to spend money in order to maintain your ability to keep a business open, please let me know immediately.
How about fixing your split personality first, Troll?Pirate


JohnRich  (D License)

Jul 4, 2011, 11:25 AM
Post #6 of 73 (1841 views)
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Re: [Gravit8] Were you financially impacted by the Argus Ban? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If these manufacturer service bulletins have caused you to spend money in order to maintain your ability to keep a business open, please let me know immediately.

Let's see how this will play out.

You sue a manufacturer for issuing a safety bulletin, the manufacturer is driven out of business, and then skydivers are less safe because they no longer have safety equipment.

And this continues with other manufacturers. After all, everyone has safety bulletins they issue, sooner or later. And they are driven out of business.

Or else, they just quit issuing safety bulletins, and cover up design or manufacturing problems, rather than let everyone know about them. And once again, skydiving becomes more dangerous.

Yeah, this is a great strategy. But what the heck, if you can make a few bucks in legal fees, go for it! After all, you don't give a shit about skydivers or the sport.


irishrigger  (D 297)

Jul 4, 2011, 11:54 AM
Post #7 of 73 (1824 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] Were you financially impacted by the Argus Ban? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
If these manufacturer service bulletins have caused you to spend money in order to maintain your ability to keep a business open, please let me know immediately.[/reply

+1 well said john

Let's see how this will play out.

You sue a manufacturer for issuing a safety bulletin, the manufacturer is driven out of business, and then skydivers are less safe because they no longer have safety equipment.

And this continues with other manufacturers. After all, everyone has safety bulletins they issue, sooner or later. And they are driven out of business.

Or else, they just quit issuing safety bulletins, and cover up design or manufacturing problems, rather than let everyone know about them. And once again, skydiving becomes more dangerous.

Yeah, this is a great strategy. But what the heck, if you can make a few bucks in legal fees, go for it! After all, you don't give a shit about skydivers or the sport.


Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Jul 4, 2011, 11:55 AM
Post #8 of 73 (1824 views)
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Re: [Gravit8] Were you financially impacted by the Argus Ban? [In reply to] Can't Post

I hope you realize that Aviacom will win this OVER and OVER again. They issued the SB for YOUR safety, your PROTECTION, think about how that'll hold up in court. Yes, there may have been a TEMPORARY financial impact, but not once did they force you to sell your AAD, or force you to use THEIR AAD at any time, you bought it under your own free will.

I can just see you standing in court after the judgement (not in your favor), saying: "But, but, but...I sold my Argus and lost money on it...but....Mommy!" Haha

And FYI...there's many people on here who know people at Aviacom. If a case is filed, your name will be listed on it and it is public record, all you need is a case # which can be obtained in many ways. No use hiding your identity now...it's gonna be public info real quick. You'll quickly see just how many skydivers turn a cold shoulder to you. Then you might have to sue Aviacom for losing your friends too...yikes! This could get complicated for you.

Yeah, it sucks, but no one forced you to buy an Argus, no one forced you to sell your Argus, and no one forced you to buy a new AAD. Suck it up...


(This post was edited by Chris-Ottawa on Jul 4, 2011, 12:14 PM)


airgord  (D 15258)

Jul 4, 2011, 12:51 PM
Post #9 of 73 (1781 views)
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Re: [Gravit8] Were you financially impacted by the Argus Ban? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm looking for anyone financially impacted by the Argus ban. I would very much like to find businesses (dropzones, tandem operators, and dz shops) that have realized demonstrable financial loss as a result of manufacturer issued service bulletins and dropzone bans. Also, please let me know if you have been forced to replace a serviceable Argus AAD with a competing brand due to a manufacturer service bulletin (I only want legitimate situations where you paid money to replace your AAD as a result of a SB or ban).

For example, if your DZ banned the AAD and you were forced to replace it to continue jumping, please let me know.
If you have a tandem program or student program where FAA law requires an AAD in the rig and you were forced to replace them and paid to do so, PLEASE let me know.

If these manufacturer service bulletins have caused you to spend money in order to maintain your ability to keep a business open, please let me know immediately.

Ambulance chaser!!!


Gravit8

Jul 4, 2011, 2:00 PM
Post #10 of 73 (1753 views)
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Re: [airgord] Were you financially impacted by the Argus Ban? [In reply to] Can't Post

Nobody said anything about a lawsuit and I'm not a lawyer. Frankly, I hear a lot of people discussing the potential for a conflict of interest and the AAD manufacturer implies this is a motivating factor leading to vendor service bulletins. I'm just trying to find out how real this is.

As for hurting the sport - how do you think it's going to go over if the FAA or FTC decides to implement tighter restrictions if it's learned this situation was indeed caused (or contributed to) by profit motives. If manufacturers aren't reacting consistently to problems with AAD vendors (like when a Cypres fires as designed but the skydiver dies as the result of a low opening).

So what are your suggestions?

Include AADs in the TSO?

Ground any AAD model when an issue or fatality occurs?

Maybe container manufacturers should ban high wingloads since many deaths occur under high wingloads.

If this is all about safety, there's a lot that the container manufacturers can do and its their consistency across the field of problems that WILL keep them from ultimately getting sued...

If you'd like to discuss this, I'd be happy to see some intelligent conversation.


Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Jul 4, 2011, 2:03 PM
Post #11 of 73 (1748 views)
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Re: [Gravit8] Were you financially impacted by the Argus Ban? [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow...it almost seemed like you were being honest there!

So, why the hidden identity then? If you're on a fact finding mission, who cares if anyone knows who you are? Something to lose? Something to hide?


airgord  (D 15258)

Jul 4, 2011, 2:22 PM
Post #12 of 73 (1739 views)
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Re: [Gravit8] Were you financially impacted by the Argus Ban? [In reply to] Can't Post

Fill out your profile, prove you are legit.

ps. What does the FTC have to do with anything here?


mark  (D 6108)

Jul 4, 2011, 2:38 PM
Post #13 of 73 (1728 views)
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Re: [Gravit8] Were you financially impacted by the Argus Ban? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
. . . if it's learned this situation was indeed caused (or contributed to) by profit motives.

That may still turn out to be the case, just not in the way you think.

Mark


Gravit8

Jul 4, 2011, 4:41 PM
Post #14 of 73 (1689 views)
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Re: [airgord] Were you financially impacted by the Argus Ban? [In reply to] Can't Post

The last time I discussed something on a forum that someone didn't like, I was called for 2 weeks at home and work by people like those who have already commented on this thread. Not gonna fill in the profile info after the previous thread comments - I haven't been inflamatory, folks - does it matter who I am? All I want to do is encourage discussion and disclosure of information. That's all the proof of authenticity I believe I need for the purpose of this discussion.

FTC protects commerce. If a manufacturer misuses federal regulations (like 14CFR165) to drive millions of dollars in revenue from a competitor (I'm not saying this is the case but it has been speculated), the FTC would likely be interested. This is why I think it's important for the manufacturers issuing service bulletins to show the tests and scientific backing for their decisions and act consistently across incidents from all AAD builders. If it's about safety, why are people dying under low-opening Cypres-equipped rigs that the manufacturer states are working as designed? Why aren't there SBs for those? If the reserve doesn't have time to deploy - should they fire higher? They're only mandatory for students and tandems so what's the harm in making them safer?

Don't get me wrong, I fully understand the situation with a cutter locking over a reserve pilot and causing a total mal after a pull. It's scary - I get it.
I also understand that there are many dead bodies that impacted under perfectly functioning cypres AADs (I use this brand by name as the established 'standard' realizing that there are others on the market and others coming on the market).

Why are there different standards? Especially with Cypres-activated reserves removed from dead bodies? I'd like to see the banning container manufacturers address THESE issues. We all read our monthly USPA magazines and we've all read articles or watched Youtube videos of jumpers who could not find handles and waited for the AAD to fire. Of course this is wrong but IT DOES HAPPEN and is documented. I propose that due to these incidents and the incidents of deaths under properly functioning AADs due to reserves not opening, they pose as much risk as the Argus risk - probably more given the market penetration of Cypres and number of incidents.


Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Jul 4, 2011, 4:48 PM
Post #15 of 73 (1684 views)
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Re: [Gravit8] Were you financially impacted by the Argus Ban? [In reply to] Can't Post

So, now you're changing to focus on Cypres and other AAD's when you initially started a thread to "provoke" (not "invoke") negative discussion about Aviacom. Now you've switched to Airtec and how "bad" they are.

Do you know where you're going with this? Cause I'm getting the feeling that you have no idea. Your thought process has changed at least 3 separate times in 3 different posts.

Get it out....what's your agenda? You're posting anonymously (or are you?), speak up instead of beating around the bush! What are you trying to accomplish with this? You've clearly got something to say if you're willing to hide behind your computer screen to say it.


airgord  (D 15258)

Jul 4, 2011, 5:01 PM
Post #16 of 73 (1678 views)
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Re: [Gravit8] Were you financially impacted by the Argus Ban? [In reply to] Can't Post

Troll, plain and simple.


Snowwhite

Jul 4, 2011, 5:22 PM
Post #17 of 73 (1665 views)
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Re: [airgord] Were you financially impacted by the Argus Ban? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Troll, plain and simple.

PLUS ONE!


hcsvader  (E 2952)

Jul 5, 2011, 2:49 AM
Post #18 of 73 (1581 views)
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Re: [Gravit8] Were you financially impacted by the Argus Ban? [In reply to] Can't Post

dude, the manufacturers banned the use of the argus after they recieved reports that this AAD may have fired locking a reserve container closed.

I think that is an appropriate response when you think about the seriousness of that situation.

It was then left up to aviacom to respond to this issue. They did nothing about it, actually they said it was nothing but a conspiracy against them....

not the response I want from the company that build my aad.

I had an argus and was affected by this before the most people were as the Australian Parachute Federation banned them in 2010.

Yes I was pissed off but the way Aviacom handled the situation pissed me off even more.

They may have a product that works, but they have shit customer service.
So it cost me a few hundred dollars to figure out I will never deal with them. Oh well.

Hey if you want to go after someone who has cuased financial loss to skydivers why dont ya look into Gary Lucas and Karage Krew...

there is soomeone who owes alot of skydivers around the world alot of money!


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Jul 5, 2011, 3:15 AM
Post #19 of 73 (1570 views)
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Re: [Gravit8] Were you financially impacted by the Argus Ban? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
FTC protects commerce. If a manufacturer misuses federal regulations (like 14CFR165)

Federal Aviation Administration
800 Independence Avenue, SW
Washington, DC 20591
1-866-TELL-FAA (1-866-835-5322)


No pages were found containing 14CFR165.
Suggestions:
Make sure all words are spelled correctly.
Try different keywords.
Try more general keywords.





tazsz  (C License)

Jul 5, 2011, 3:54 AM
Post #20 of 73 (1558 views)
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Re: [hcsvader] Were you financially impacted by the Argus Ban? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It was then left up to aviacom to respond to this issue. They did nothing about it, actually they said it was nothing but a conspiracy against them....

not the response I want from the company that build my aad.

Yes I was pissed off but the way Aviacom handled the situation pissed me off even more.

They may have a product that works, but they have shit customer service.
So it cost me a few hundred dollars to figure out I will never deal with them.


+1


Andy9o8  (D License)

Jul 5, 2011, 4:23 AM
Post #21 of 73 (1556 views)
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Re: [Gravit8] Were you financially impacted by the Argus Ban? [In reply to] Can't Post

From a skydiving angle, you don't know what you're talking about.
From a legal angle, you don't know what you're talking about.
As to each: on at least a couple of different levels.


theonlyski  (D License)

Jul 5, 2011, 4:58 AM
Post #22 of 73 (1542 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Were you financially impacted by the Argus Ban? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
From a skydiving angle, you don't know what you're talking about.
From a legal angle, you don't know what you're talking about.
As to each: on at least a couple of different levels.

Laugh +1


piisfish

Jul 5, 2011, 5:18 AM
Post #23 of 73 (1521 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Were you financially impacted by the Argus Ban? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
From a skydiving angle, you don't know what you're talking about.
From a legal angle, you don't know what you're talking about.
As to each: on at least a couple of different levels.
depends on the angle, he could quite possibly generate some lift Angelic


wildcard451  (D License)

Jul 5, 2011, 5:35 AM
Post #24 of 73 (1506 views)
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Re: [piisfish] Were you financially impacted by the Argus Ban? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
From a skydiving angle, you don't know what you're talking about.
From a legal angle, you don't know what you're talking about.
As to each: on at least a couple of different levels.
depends on the angle, he could quite possibly generate some lift Angelic

Only if speaking with a foreign accent.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jul 5, 2011, 6:09 AM
Post #25 of 73 (1487 views)
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Re: [Gravit8] Were you financially impacted by the Argus Ban? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'm looking for anyone financially impacted by the Argus ban

I wasted my time reading your post, where do I send the bill?


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