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Chasing your student into the ground!?!

 

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peregrinerose  (D 28983)

Jun 29, 2011, 10:48 AM
Post #126 of 162 (1147 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

This particular student... no. This isn't the first time he's had issues with awareness overall, alti awareness, etc. That's the problem with armchair quarterbacking... I know the student involved, have made multiple jumps with this student, and know how he tends to respond (or not) in the case of stress or disorientation. In a generic scenario, you absolutely have valid points, and with another student I likely would have turned/tracked. With THIS student on THIS jump, what I did was appropriate.

That's why the armchair quarterbacking is a good thing though... all the scenarios get discussed. All the options and possibilities get discussed. Conversations like this one are an asset to the sport and should happen more frequently.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Jun 29, 2011, 10:52 AM
Post #127 of 162 (1144 views)
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In reply to:
Conversations like this one are an asset to the sport and should happen more frequently.

We agree! Cool

So Jen - THANK YOU for "playing" / participating / being willing to SHARE!! Smile


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jun 29, 2011, 11:33 AM
Post #128 of 162 (1126 views)
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Re: [ufk22] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"end of coach jump" procedures, and it's important to properly explain them to the student and then follow them exactly, and giving the pull sign is not part of the drill.
.
.
Having you watch the student go low has no benefit for the student. Being able to tell the student how low they went has no benefit for the student.
The dive was over. Just because the student didn't do their job is no reason for you not to do yours.......

As an AFFI, it's hard to not go to them, pull for them, and keep giving signals hoping for awareness. But if it's a coach jump.....then we need to be in coach role.

I agree wholeheartedly with the quote above. And I can't really think of any exceptions right now. and that really does includes this specific scenario also (sorry, Jen).

Plan the dive, dive the plan - that goes for RW and FF, CrW, big ways, AND teaching dives.


Jen - pretty brave of you to put this out there for everyone - it's clear that you are trying to do the best for each student from your perspective. Thanks.


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jun 29, 2011, 11:38 AM)


Scrumpot  (D License)

Jun 29, 2011, 11:35 AM
Post #129 of 162 (1123 views)
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Re: [peregrinerose] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

Now though, with my above post being said, and stipulated... ...I'm still not so sure your contention (that turning & burning would not have been effective in this case) is entirely correct; and think is still worth a little deeper, and further consideration / re- reflection.

In reply to:
This particular student... no. This isn't the first time he's had issues with awareness overall, alti awareness, etc. That's the problem with armchair quarterbacking... I know the student involved, have made multiple jumps with this student, and know how he tends to respond (or not) in the case of stress or disorientation. In a generic scenario, you absolutely have valid points, and with another student I likely would have turned/tracked. With THIS student on THIS jump, what I did was appropriate.
Okay - Fair enough. Clearly neither I, nor any of "us" (outside now looking in) were there. I get that. Now, I've had to sometimes even reconsider myself however, the other side of that very same coin. - What I mean by that, is your "familiarity" with the subject jumper maybe even working against you. Meaning - that still maybe ...just maybe still - the SOP procedure just may have worked / been appropriate / been effective? You "pre-supposed" (in a way), so you ended up putting you both in that (self-fulfilling prophecy) situation?

Sometimes it is even better to have a completely "un-tainted" unfamiliar coach/instructor with the student in this situation - and then "magically", the SOP procedure actually works!
...I've seen that happen, 1st hand Angelic

Earlier you posted:
In reply to:
I did NOT say he was looking at me... I said that I gave a signal.
I have to presume he was at least "looking in your direction"? - Otherwise, why would you even bother giving signals? Now, yes - "looking", and actually REGISTERING are indeed entirely different things. I do not contend with you on that. However, it is actually PRECISELY why then (when they are not registering) - the "YOU waive, turn / track / deploy" - is specifically designed.

You did not turn/track yourself:
Quote:
because if he suddenly decided to track in my general direction due to disorientation, the results could be fatal
I disagree (but I could be wrong), as I have yet to see a Cat-G coaching student who can (or even for that matter really should) be able to even come close to catch up to me (to put themselves BACK into that proximity where this could be a legitimate concern) - nor should be able to really ANY coach - for that to be an issue.

Again, "the procedure" is designed to specifically AVOID / preclude such exposure.


Yup - again, all this is clearly "Monday morning quarterbacking", but I still contend that instead, executing the proper established procedure - for the most part (was this single jump possibly the/an exception? - I don't know - but I still think maybe it wasn't) - is probably best.

Quote:
Conversations like this one are an asset to the sport and should happen more frequently.
Hopefully, on at least still this much, we agree. Angelic


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jun 29, 2011, 12:04 PM
Post #130 of 162 (1107 views)
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In reply to:
This particular student... no. This isn't the first time he's had issues with awareness overall, alti awareness, etc. That's the problem with armchair quarterbacking... I know the student involved, have made multiple jumps with this student, and know how he tends to respond (or not) in the case of stress or disorientation. In a generic scenario, you absolutely have valid points, and with another student I likely would have turned/tracked. With THIS student on THIS jump, what I did was appropriate.
Sorry, It was not.
If the student was locked so bad that he didn't respond to hand signals, what good was your being there watching.
If the student was so locked that the sight of your canopy deploying wouldn't have made a difference, OSB.....


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 29, 2011, 5:50 PM
Post #131 of 162 (1043 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...Just because the student didn't do their job is no reason for you not to do yours......

As an AFFI, it's hard to not go to them, pull for them, and keep giving signals hoping for awareness. But if it's a coach jump.....then we need to be in coach role.

OK. All's well and good, I guess, for someone with only a Coach rating.
What you guys are talking about is Coach rating stuff. And, you are correct in what you are saying....for Coaches.

If things go to crap on the Coach jump I'm doing, I'm putting my AFFI skills to work. I'll be damned if I'm gonna sit there (or continue to track away or pull) and watch somebody go in just because it's a Coach dive. Sorry guys, but that's me.

I'd never be able to live with myself. YMMV.



In reply to:
Plan the dive, dive the plan - that goes for RW and FF, CrW, big ways, AND teaching dives.

Can't argue that...up to a point.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 29, 2011, 5:55 PM
Post #132 of 162 (1040 views)
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Re: [ufk22] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Sorry, It was not. .

Sorry, it was.


In reply to:
If the student was locked so bad that he didn't respond to hand signals, what good was your being there watching.
If the student was so locked that the sight of your canopy deploying wouldn't have made a difference, OSB.....

Well, some of us place more importance on living than on by-the-book rules that could result in disaster when there are viable options available. Jenn's jump was maybe one of those times, IMO. I'll not second-guess her.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jun 29, 2011, 6:27 PM
Post #133 of 162 (1029 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If things go to crap on the Coach jump I'm doing, I'm putting my AFFI skills to work.

I'll agree with that - above the pull altitude for the student. Fly in, dock, tap him on the helmet and show him your altimeter.

You gonna pull for him, too when he should be released for self supervision?

I guess if you trained him to pull if he sees you track away, then that's the plan. Above that trained altitude, I'll do whatever I can to augment his training, as well.

In Jen's case, if the student has a history of this, why on earth is he cleared with a known issue of something that's passing criteria on all 7 AFF levels?


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jun 29, 2011, 6:31 PM)


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jun 29, 2011, 8:37 PM
Post #134 of 162 (1008 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Sorry, It was not. .

Sorry, it was.


In reply to:
If the student was locked so bad that he didn't respond to hand signals, what good was your being there watching.
If the student was so locked that the sight of your canopy deploying wouldn't have made a difference, OSB.....

Well, some of us place more importance on living than on by-the-book rules that could result in disaster when there are viable options available. Jenn's jump was maybe one of those times, IMO. I'll not second-guess her.
OK, I'm open to this.
What part of tracking, sufficient separation and then deploying would end the life of the coach, or result in disaster.
We aren't talking about something up high, and she didn't dock and roll the student over or deploy for the student. Is sitting there watching this happen the viable option you're referring to, or is there another viable option that I'm missing.
To quote you, from an earlier post in this same thread
"USPA can come up with any and all the "training" programs they can dream up and people will do what's necessary to pass the course and then promptly throw it all by the wayside and go off on their own doing whatever they damn well please as long as they get paid to do whatever stupid shit they can come up with. "


(This post was edited by ufk22 on Jun 29, 2011, 8:53 PM)


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Jun 29, 2011, 10:06 PM
Post #135 of 162 (994 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

I was trained in my coach course to track away at an angle (120deg not 180) and continue to watch the student in this scenario. The reasoning was specifically for an off heading track or any other issues. I plan to follow this procedure if I'm presented with an unresponsive student at break off. Yes, it's harder to give feedback to the student on what's going on but I feel it's a good compromise.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 30, 2011, 1:43 AM
Post #136 of 162 (976 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, that is what you should do as per your Coach training.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 30, 2011, 1:50 AM
Post #137 of 162 (975 views)
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Re: [ufk22] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
OK, I'm open to this.
What part of tracking, sufficient separation and then deploying would end the life of the coach, or result in disaster.
I'm sure this is simply a tongue-in-cheek question since I'm sure you already know the answer. What's funny is that you would even ask.

In reply to:
Is sitting there watching this happen the viable option you're referring to, or is there another viable option that I'm missing.
Again, why would you need to ask such a question?


In reply to:
To quote you, from an earlier post in this same thread
"USPA can come up with any and all the "training" programs they can dream up and people will do what's necessary to pass the course and then promptly throw it all by the wayside and go off on their own doing whatever they damn well please as long as they get paid to do whatever stupid shit they can come up with. "
Totally different context altogether.


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jun 30, 2011, 5:40 AM
Post #138 of 162 (952 views)
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In Reply To
If the student was locked so bad that he didn't respond to hand signals, what good was your being there watching.
If the student was so locked that the sight of your canopy deploying wouldn't have made a difference, OSB.....Well, some of us place more importance on living than on by-the-book rules that could result in disaster when there are viable options available. Jenn's jump was maybe one of those times, IMO. I'll not second-guess her.
reply]
In reply to:
OK, I'm open to this.
What part of tracking, sufficient separation and then deploying would end the life of the coach, or result in disaster.
I'm sure this is simply a tongue-in-cheek question since I'm sure you already know the answer. What's funny is that you would even ask.

In reply to:
Is sitting there watching this happen the viable option you're referring to, or is there another viable option that I'm missing.
Again, why would you need to ask such a question?


In reply to:
To quote you, from an earlier post in this same thread
"USPA can come up with any and all the "training" programs they can dream up and people will do what's necessary to pass the course and then promptly throw it all by the wayside and go off on their own doing whatever they damn well please as long as they get paid to do whatever stupid shit they can come up with. "
Totally different context altogether.No, seriously, you need to back up what you've said.
YOU are the one that mentioned not following procedure in order to live.
YOU are the one that mentioned "other viable options" being used. I've run a lot of coach courses over the years, and I've never talked about "do this to pass the course, but ignore this in the real world." If there truly is a way to justify what happened on the coach dive we're talking about, I'd like to hear it. I'm always open to changing what and how I teach my candidates to do things. You have a lot of years in the sport and a lot of instructional experience, as do i, but I need some clarification on this.
Otherwise, I can only assume this is more of the "my friends and I are always right in our decisions, but people I don't know or don't like don't know shit" school of skydiving.
There are plenty of coaches and potential coaches that read these threads. I think I've explained my point of view. If you have a valid point here, I will admit my error. If you aren't willing to explain your points, it only confuses these people that are trying to learn.


nigel99  (D 1)

Jun 30, 2011, 6:16 AM
Post #139 of 162 (945 views)
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Re: [ufk22] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

My understanding of pops reply is that the rules for instructors are there to save the instructors life.

No instructor is obliged to "chase a student into the ground". So while the rules tell you to give up at x altitude and save your life, under certain circumstances he will bend or break those rules knowing full well that he is compromising his own safety.

I guess rules for instructors come in 2 buckets, those to protect the well being of your students, and those to protect you.

I am just stating my understanding of his post(s). I may be completely wrong though.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 30, 2011, 6:53 AM
Post #140 of 162 (932 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
You're getting mixed up here. There are two different sets of rules for two different levels of instructors.

A coach is trained and required to have jump experience thus that they are not expected or intended for catching, stabilzing, or pulling for students. As such, the best thing they can do is to follow the dive plan, and track off at the correct time, hopefully helping the student to understand that the skydive is over.

An AFF I has a higher level of required experience, and is trained to catch, stabilze and pull for students. As such, they have more options available to them when dealing with problems on a skydive, be it student, coach, or even a licensed jumper.

The coach should never deviate from their stated purpose, that being to dirt dive, gear checks, monitor the student in the plane and freefall, observe the canopy control and debrief the student.

As for the AFFI, the 'generally accepted' policy is that you stop chasing the student at 2k, when you are 'supposed to' open your own parachute. As I mentioned before, if you don't have hand-on-harness by 1500ft, your chances are slim of beating the Cypres, not being involved in a Cypres-induced wrap, or being able to deploy both the student and yourself, so you might as well give up.

The difference is that an AFF I would know this, and have a better chance of having the situational awareness to see if they would make that 'cut off' altitude or not. If you're at 2500ft and still 50 ft from a student spinning on their back, you know to just dump because you know how long it would take to get there and get to the handle. A coach might just 'keep trying' because they have no experience or training for them to know what's really involved in pulling for another jumper.

The other difference, and this is not in all cases, but most, is that the majority of AFF Is would never let things get that far out of hand. They would never be that far away in the first place, and would never let a situation develop to the point where they were so far out of their slot on the bottom end of the skydive.


nigel99  (D 1)

Jun 30, 2011, 7:28 AM
Post #141 of 162 (925 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for explaining.

I had thought that some people were saying, that because it is a coach jump you should folllow the coach rule set, EVEN if you are an AFF-I. That means that even though you have the ability to catch and stabilise, you shouldn't because it is a coach jump.

I realize that chasing someone when you are not trained to do so, could easily place you both in more danger than following the rules.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 30, 2011, 7:34 AM
Post #142 of 162 (924 views)
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Quote:
I had thought that some people were saying, that because it is a coach jump you should folllow the coach rule set, EVEN if you are an AFF-I. That means that even though you have the ability to catch and stabilise, you shouldn't because it is a coach jump.

I think some people might be saying that. I disagree with that point (obviously).


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jun 30, 2011, 8:59 AM
Post #143 of 162 (903 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Thanks for explaining.

I had thought that some people were saying, that because it is a coach jump you should folllow the coach rule set, EVEN if you are an AFF-I. That means that even though you have the ability to catch and stabilise, you shouldn't because it is a coach jump.
My point was you should follow one or the other.
From what's been posted about this dive...
Student on his back at 6K, back on his belly at 4.5K.
1. As a coach, at 5.5K you should immediately wave off, track and deploy, hopefully in his line of sight.
2, As AFF-I, you have the option of docking, rollover if necessary, give him the pull sign and deploying for him if he gets below 4K.
In this case, neither was done. The Instructor gave hand signal for altitude awareness, backslid, and didn't deploy til after the student had turned and initiated a low track with his back to her. With the student tracking away below 3.5K, the chances of catching and deploying for the student were getting slim, so I'm not saying that the Instructor should have then been chasing the student down. The deployment by the coah at 3.5K seemed to be the only thing done right, but it was done after the coach was no longer in the student's view. A dump at 4K with adequate seperation (per the SIM and IRM), before the student turned, would have been a better option.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 30, 2011, 9:23 AM
Post #144 of 162 (896 views)
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In reply to:
My point was you should follow one or the other.
And I would disagree with that given the multi-rating situation.

Since you didn't understand my post, please re-read Dave's post. He does have a way with words. Thanks, Dave.


Your assumptions about my postings are entirely off-base.
Your comment,
"Otherwise, I can only assume this is more of the "my friends and I are always right in our decisions, but people I don't know or don't like don't know shit" school of skydiving. "

...was uncalled for.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jun 30, 2011, 9:26 AM)


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jun 30, 2011, 10:00 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
My point was you should follow one or the other.
And I would disagree with that given the multi-rating situation.
So if I have multiple ratings, I don't need to follow the proper procedure for either of them???

Since you didn't understand my post, please re-read Dave's post. He does have a way with words. Thanks, Dave.

In reply to:
Not that I didn't understand, just looking for some specific. Your response didn't really say anything.


Your assumptions about my postings are entirely off-base.
Your comment,
"Otherwise, I can only assume this is more of the "my friends and I are always right in our decisions, but people I don't know or don't like don't know shit" school of skydiving. "

...was uncalled for.

Well, this thread started with a coach without a lot of experience that watched a student go low, didn't take appropriate action, and then pulled low.
He got totally reamed on this board, and not just for the altitude he pulled at.
The situation in the later post was an experienced coach and AFF-I who also just watched a student go low, didn't take appropriate action, but did manage to pull at altitude (even if it was too late for her student to see), and you seem to think her actions were appropriate.
I'm kinda slow on the uptake, so what I'm asking for is an explaination of why your responses about these two very similar situation (other than the deployment alltitude of the Coach/Instructor) seem very different.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Jun 30, 2011, 10:29 AM
Post #146 of 162 (866 views)
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In reply to:
A coach is trained and required to have jump experience thus that they are not expected or intended for catching, stabilzing, or pulling for students. As such, the best thing they can do is to follow the dive plan, and track off at the correct time, hopefully helping the student to understand that the skydive is over.

An AFF I has a higher level of required experience, and is trained to catch, stabilze and pull for students. As such, they have more options available to them when dealing with problems on a skydive, be it student, coach, or even a licensed jumper.

Right. And Jen's initial post, I think, was put up specifically to illustrate the challenges, of when one is also an AFF-I, effectively "taking OFF the AFF-I hat", and restricting oneself in-air, during a coaching jump, to acting strictly in the role of a coach. I think her post also had great value to us to look at, and consider in that vein/light and illustration. I'm sure she had absolutely no intent on it becoming "dissected" so vociferously since, although she has indeed been gracious in her follow-up(s) to it, and further enhancing others consideration of it (and the subject matter over all). However, I cannot help but to now feel somewhat guilty for (being party to) any, clearly now getting to be, well "over-dissection" and supposition resulting of her otherwise clearly valuable "real life" anecdote, example, and provided perspective.

Just for the record.

I feel the roles are clear, and should be clearly separated. However difficult that may be to actually perform when "in the heat of battle" situation. In other words, when doing an AFF jump - exercising there, AFF procedures. When doing a Coaching jump, exercising there, strictly Coaching prescribed procedures. Someone also mentioned I think somewhere, that following these (I think again - clearly defined) procedures and not deviating from them, might also become your only protection from potential liability, and/or at the very least, being called to task as to explaining more clearly why you deviated from them.

It's a TOUGH job, with very real responsibilities and accountability. And anyone who approaches it (either AFF or Coaching) lightly or tritely could be setting themselves up for a very rude awakening.

Jen's (Perigrinrose) posts and perspective, based upon her real life experience she has been willing to share (THANK YOU JEN - FOR THE RECORD) have provided great added value to this conversation, and as with others (and all the other added perspectives to consider) - I appreciate 'em!


(This post was edited by Scrumpot on Jun 30, 2011, 10:32 AM)


Scrumpot  (D License)

Jun 30, 2011, 10:44 AM
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In reply to:
I had thought that some people were saying, that because it is a coach jump you should folllow the coach rule set, EVEN if you are an AFF-I. That means that even though you have the ability to catch and stabilise, you shouldn't because it is a coach jump.

Actually for the record - I have said that. I think that the clear delineation between the 2, and establishing the full understanding in advance of that happening (on both the "students" and the coaches part) THEN DOING IT - i.e. plan the dive, DIVE THE PLAN ...is critical. And, crucial to also avoiding any (roles/actual performance expectation) potential in-air confusion.


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Jun 30, 2011, 11:16 AM
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In reply to:
Well, this thread started with a coach without a lot of experience that watched a student go low, didn't take appropriate action, and then pulled low.
He got totally reamed on this board, and not just for the altitude he pulled at.
The situation in the later post was an experienced coach and AFF-I who also just watched a student go low, didn't take appropriate action, but did manage to pull at altitude (even if it was too late for her student to see), and you seem to think her actions were appropriate.
I'm kinda slow on the uptake, so what I'm asking for is an explaination of why your responses about these two very similar situation (other than the deployment alltitude of the Coach/Instructor) seem very different.

Because although the situations were very similar, the skill level of the instructor was very different.
As Perigrinerose (Jen) noted, it can be difficult for an AFF-I to "put away" the AFF-I skills and do "just" a coach jump. Stuff that is appropriate for an instructor to do on an AFF jump isn't so on a coach jump...

Until it goes bad. At which point an AFF-I has a much deeper toolbox of skills to use.

Which, under the right (or wrong) set of circumstances can mean the difference between a thread here, or one in Incidents.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
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Jun 30, 2011, 1:27 PM
Post #149 of 162 (816 views)
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In reply to:
Because although the situations were very similar, the skill level of the instructor was very different.
As Perigrinerose (Jen) noted, it can be difficult for an AFF-I to "put away" the AFF-I skills and do "just" a coach jump. Stuff that is appropriate for an instructor to do on an AFF jump isn't so on a coach jump...

Until it goes bad. At which point an AFF-I has a much deeper toolbox of skills to use.

Which, under the right (or wrong) set of circumstances can mean the difference between a thread here, or one in Incidents.

This is all true, but to throw another viewpoint into the mix;
If you're an Instructor, have major separation from your student (which seems to be the case in both situtions being discussed in this thread) and both instructor and student are burning through 2500' and the Instructor is still tossing signals.
You're not going to catch the student and deploy for them by 2K. Therefore, the best course of action (IMO) is still to turn and burn, look over your shoulder to be sure the student isn't tracking with you, and deploy to notify the student they should be deployed.


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Jun 30, 2011, 5:34 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Because although the situations were very similar, the skill level of the instructor was very different.
As Perigrinerose (Jen) noted, it can be difficult for an AFF-I to "put away" the AFF-I skills and do "just" a coach jump. Stuff that is appropriate for an instructor to do on an AFF jump isn't so on a coach jump...

Until it goes bad. At which point an AFF-I has a much deeper toolbox of skills to use.

Which, under the right (or wrong) set of circumstances can mean the difference between a thread here, or one in Incidents.

This is all true, but to throw another viewpoint into the mix;
If you're an Instructor, have major separation from your student (which seems to be the case in both situtions being discussed in this thread) and both instructor and student are burning through 2500' and the Instructor is still tossing signals.
You're not going to catch the student and deploy for them by 2K. Therefore, the best course of action (IMO) is still to turn and burn, look over your shoulder to be sure the student isn't tracking with you, and deploy to notify the student they should be deployed.

Absolutely. Which is why the non-AFF-I coach in the OP was wrong, and perigrinerose wasn't. He chased down way too low. She pulled at 3500, to try and signal the student to pull (post 113).

The AFF-I on a coach jump has a lot more skills and experience, and far better judgement in these sorts of situations. And is in a much better place to use that judgement to do "non-coach" stuff.


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