Forums: Skydiving: Tandem Skydiving:
Sigma Break Toggles

 


Skydive_volker

Jun 27, 2011, 8:40 AM
Post #1 of 23 (2241 views)
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Sigma Break Toggles Can't Post

Hello could we please get some input on this.

We have Micro Sigmas 2 years old 400 jumps on them and a few older Sigmas..all well maintained.

We seem to keep getting the break toggles stuck. When setting the breaks , when you stick the "rigid" top of the toggle through the retainer loop we seem to be getting the toggle up through the loop a tiny bit too much. So the loop is below the rigid part of the toggle and locks up where the toggle is flimsy, it ties of the rigid part so when we try to release we cannot pull it out. This seems to only happen at 2 rigs.

It happened 3 times to me . I was able to " climb" up there and get it out..but yesterday we had 2 (!) cut-aways due to that (after not having had any other cut-aways in more than a year) I don't blame the instructor because when I had these incidences before I had to work all the way to my hard deck to get them released. and I had been very close to "giving up" and chopping...

Side note We kept jumping them after my expereinces because we thought it was "just a packing issue" that we had addressed by not sticking them up too far.

Side note:
We do normally used the snaps but some instructors don't like them



Any thoughts on how to prevent this. Are there any toggles out there where the rigid top bit of the toggle extends down further. (I believe when I worked in new Zealand our toggles were way more rigid and further down (Strong Tandems there)

Any input would be appreciated.


AggieDave  (D License)

Jun 27, 2011, 8:53 AM
Post #2 of 23 (2198 views)
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Re: [Skydive_volker] Sigma Break Toggles [In reply to] Can't Post

How have the openings been? The only time that I ever had problems getting the toggles released is after a significantly hard opening, when packers set the brakes incorrectly and when the lineset was on the way out.

You didn't say if the linesets were Dacron or not.


jgarango  (D 25594)

Jun 27, 2011, 10:58 AM
Post #3 of 23 (2158 views)
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Re: [Skydive_volker] Sigma Break Toggles [In reply to] Can't Post

In my opinion, this should only happen when the toggles are not snapped. The snaps set the distance so the toogle cannot travel up far enough to get to the soft area. By keeping the distance fixed, the snaps dont allow the toogle to get choked.

Use the snaps and the problem should go away. Also, you can always buy the new risers from UPT that have hinge snaps that release very easy. My new Micro has them and they work geat. Almost no effort to release.


Skydive_volker

Jun 27, 2011, 1:18 PM
Post #4 of 23 (2107 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Sigma Break Toggles [In reply to] Can't Post

The lines are spectra,

and the openings are normal, very soft actually , Canopy HOP 330


AggieDave  (D License)

Jun 27, 2011, 2:14 PM
Post #5 of 23 (2085 views)
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Re: [Skydive_volker] Sigma Break Toggles [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Canopy HOP 330

Ok, I was under the impression you were jumping Sigma mains.

I have absolutely no experience with the Hop canopies, I'm not sure how they are setup and how they would react with the Sigma tandem system.


ast4711

Jun 27, 2011, 2:51 PM
Post #6 of 23 (2071 views)
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Re: [Skydive_volker] Sigma Break Toggles [In reply to] Can't Post

Could it be an issue with the retainer loop shrinking over the time?

Don`t really see how, but we had the same problem with spectra lines on a sport canopy where after some (many) jumps the eye got smaller and smaller up to a point where it was nearly impossible to insert the hard part of the toggle into it, let alone releasing the toggle...

alex


chris74  (No 568073)

Jun 27, 2011, 9:15 PM
Post #7 of 23 (1997 views)
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Re: [Skydive_volker] Sigma Break Toggles [In reply to] Can't Post

hello dudes,
got one toggle stocked too and I had to jettison my main so use the snaps ( when they are still there Mad ) & personally I have passed the control line through the toggle grommet from the top of the toggle so the loop retainer can't get over anymore.
May the force be with you !
Banzai !
Xophe


Skydive_volker

Jun 27, 2011, 9:48 PM
Post #8 of 23 (1989 views)
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Re: [Skydive_volker] Sigma Break Toggles [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks guys ...and sorry for the spelling mistake. of course I mean BRAKE toggles


Skydive_volker

Jun 27, 2011, 10:46 PM
Post #9 of 23 (1979 views)
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Re: [chris74] Sigma Break Toggles [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
& personally I have passed the control line through the toggle grommet from the top of the toggle so the loop retainer can't get over anymore.
Xophe

That sounds like it might work. has anybody else done this. Could there be any downsides to that?


irishrigger  (D 297)

Jun 28, 2011, 2:17 AM
Post #10 of 23 (1950 views)
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Re: [Skydive_volker] Sigma Break Toggles [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,
we have had that issue with a few of our rigs. Sounds like the retaining loop on the riser needs to be changed or indeed the whole riser and toogles.
Another thing i came across here is that you have smaller line on other canopys than the sigma. I think the hop has small dacron. We have used the twin 372 from paratec in ours. And it was possible to push the toogle to far into the loop. I added a really stiff material across the toogle just above the grommet to prevent the brake line coming to far.the brake line gets snagged around the lip where it is folded back below the grommet. When i get back to the loft later in the afternoon, i will try to upload a couple pictures.
Rodger


Skydive_volker

Jun 28, 2011, 10:19 PM
Post #11 of 23 (1864 views)
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Re: [irishrigger] Sigma Break Toggles [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks rodger. could you post a photo of this? I just spoke with Mike @ UPT. They have new risers where the stiff part extends further down....I have ordere a set and will post if it solves the problem.


Skydive_volker

Jun 29, 2011, 9:29 AM
Post #12 of 23 (1819 views)
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Re: [ast4711] Sigma Break Toggles [In reply to] Can't Post

@alex

Hi Alex, no it's not that the loops are too short...on the contrary a shorter loop would prevent this scenario.

The toggle moves up to far. So the loop is down where the toggle in not stiff anymore and "ties up" the flimsy part. So when you try to release you are pulling the brake toggles down to release the brakes..the stiff part gets locked up by the loop see this VERY amateur drawing.

The solution would be to have the stiff part go down further (like on Strong System toggles)

Again: UPT says the the new ones are that way.
Attachments: exaggerated.jpg (30.7 KB)


ast4711

Jun 29, 2011, 9:54 AM
Post #13 of 23 (1811 views)
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Re: [Skydive_volker] Sigma Break Toggles [In reply to] Can't Post

ok... ic....
So just another reason why I went right with the icarus :-)

alex


holie  (A License)

Jun 30, 2011, 7:23 AM
Post #14 of 23 (1766 views)
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Re: [ast4711] Sigma Break Toggles [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
ok... ic....
So just another reason why I went right with the icarus :-)

alex


Icarus make rigs and risers Sly ?


Wink I know you don't have to set the brakes ;-)

Cool


ast4711

Jul 1, 2011, 12:03 AM
Post #15 of 23 (1726 views)
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Re: [holie] Sigma Break Toggles [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Icarus make rigs and risers ?
I know you don't have to set the brakes ;-)

Why do you ask then...?


alex


RIGGER  (D 7933)

Jul 1, 2011, 8:46 AM
Post #16 of 23 (1698 views)
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Re: [Skydive_volker] Sigma Break Toggles [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile Hi

yes, use Sigma or Sigma2 Tandem canopy from UPT/PD - I never had an issue & the steering system match the UPT risers spec. - the velcroless risers are good.

Sigma is approved as a system = H/C, VR360 reserve & Sigma main canopy line - think about it.

Cheers


RIGGER  (D 7933)

Jul 1, 2011, 10:10 AM
Post #17 of 23 (1688 views)
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Re: [Skydive_volker] Sigma Break Toggles [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile Hi

Are you talking about the sigma Ty.7 main risers ?

Are you using the Dacron Loop under the guide ring ?

I have about 8500 + jumps on the sigma & NEVER saw that happaned.

If you push the toggle too far upward & do not use the snaps maybe but if all is set as should be no reason for that.

All goes to packing training & care of details.

The risers are good - both types = Velcro & Velcroless - I like the Velcroless type - works great.

Cheers


(This post was edited by RIGGER on Jul 1, 2011, 10:11 AM)


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jul 1, 2011, 11:52 AM
Post #18 of 23 (1676 views)
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Re: [Skydive_volker] Sigma Brake Toggles [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
thanks guys ...and sorry for the spelling mistake. of course I mean BRAKE toggles

we should just eliminate both words and go with one

Braike'

it's less annoying


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jul 1, 2011, 11:53 AM)


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jul 4, 2011, 5:52 AM
Post #19 of 23 (1624 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Sigma Brake Toggles [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
thanks guys ...and sorry for the spelling mistake. of course I mean BRAKE toggles

we should just eliminate both words and go with one

Braike'

it's less annoying

.........................................................................

Try "STEERING" handles.


skydiveoc  (D 12721)

Jul 6, 2011, 4:14 PM
Post #20 of 23 (1529 views)
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Re: [RIGGER] Sigma Break Toggles [In reply to] Can't Post

I dont think you have 8500 jumps with Sigma 2 mains with Vectran. This is a problem that UPT has obviously acknowledged with the new stiffened riser. We have new Vectran canopies and have had one cutaway, two near cutaways. An associate DZ has had at least one cutaway due to the toggle working its way upward with the grommet sliding throught he loop during opening. Experienced TM with 14000 jumps watched it happen. The toggle was stoed in the keeper, worked its way out of the keeper on opening and slid up. He was able to clear it.

Yes snaps keep it in place but often break due to TM's anxiously yanking down. DZO's do not want to spend $300 every 100 jumps on new risers.

Hopefully theyve got it sorted with the new risers.

In reply to:
Smile Hi

Are you talking about the sigma Ty.7 main risers ?

Are you using the Dacron Loop under the guide ring ?

I have about 8500 + jumps on the sigma & NEVER saw that happaned.

If you push the toggle too far upward & do not use the snaps maybe but if all is set as should be no reason for that.

All goes to packing training & care of details.

The risers are good - both types = Velcro & Velcroless - I like the Velcroless type - works great.

Cheers


RIGGER  (D 7933)

Jul 7, 2011, 6:07 AM
Post #21 of 23 (1498 views)
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Re: [skydiveoc] Sigma Break Toggles [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile Hi

I said 8500 jumps on Sigma - I did not said Sigma 2.

To make it clear the jumps are on the Sigma system = EZ384, Sigma 370 & Sigma2 370 with old & new risers.

We have half of our Sigma 370's with Vectran lines (Sigma2) & we have many, many jumps on the Sigma2 & the TI's never reported on toggles issus with both velcro & velcroless risers.

I read your post & as I said we jump both types of risers & never had the same issue you had.

the snaps does came off from place - I saw that on the velcro risers but it never happened on the velcroless risers which we use from the time they came out.

I have now the new risers with the floating snaps - just came in, I wonder how they will work.

Thanks for your post.

Cheers


(This post was edited by RIGGER on Jul 7, 2011, 6:12 AM)


Skydive_volker

Jul 11, 2011, 9:29 AM
Post #22 of 23 (1430 views)
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Re: [skydiveoc] Sigma Break Toggles [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello I have received the "supposedly new" design with the stiffer top part of the toggle. I do not think that there is any change....is is stiff on the top but is gets flimsy by the grommet. Thanks for posting skydiveoc . Interesting to hear that we are not the only DZ with that problem. it would be such an easy fix to extend the stiffener down.

@ Rodger "I added a really stiff material across the toogle just above the grommet to prevent the brake line coming to far.the brake line gets snagged around the lip where it is folded back below the grommet. When i get back to the loft later in the afternoon, i will try to upload a couple pictures.
Rodger "

This sounds great! Could you please post a pic.


Skydive_volker

Jul 11, 2011, 3:47 PM
Post #23 of 23 (1409 views)
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Re: [Skydive_volker] Sigma Brake Toggles [In reply to] Can't Post

better pic of the problem
Attachments: upt Sigma toggle improvement.pdf (14.3 KB)



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