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Hand-mounted Video on Tandem Student

 

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Cornjumper  (D License)

Jun 20, 2011, 9:11 PM
Post #1 of 28 (2789 views)
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Hand-mounted Video on Tandem Student Can't Post

This weekend, I overheard a tandem passenger mention in passing that he wished he brought his hand-mounted GoPro camera (he uses it for other adventure sports) so he could ask about wearing it on his tandem. As coincidence would have it, I came across a video today on youtube showing that exact thing. A tandem student with a hand-mounted camera.

http://youtu.be/4iM-wy_C9Uo

Here's a few questions that have come up for me-
Is this a good idea? Bad idea? (Bad idea only because the SIM says so?)

Will it be harder (or is it already harder) to convince low-number jumpers to not jump video camera when the new, small cameras are no longer a physical safety risk?
What's the best way to measure that someone is mentally ready to jump with a camera?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jun 20, 2011, 10:04 PM
Post #2 of 28 (2721 views)
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Re: [Cornjumper] Hand-mounted Video on Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

>Is this a good idea? Bad idea?

It's actually probably a better idea than having the instructor wear it. Students are already incredibly distracted, and at worst will be popping the TM in the face with it - but that's not the end of the world. And if they get it snagged on exit or something, a broken arm/missing finger on a student is less dangerous than a broken arm on a TM.

>What's the best way to measure that someone is mentally ready to
>jump with a camera?

One good sign is when they are proficient at the discipline they want to film. Want to film 4-way? The ability to turn 8 points in time with like-skilled people would be a good measure. Want to film tandems? A tandem rating is a good measure. AFF same thing.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jun 21, 2011, 1:15 AM
Post #3 of 28 (2684 views)
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Re: [billvon] Hand-mounted Video on Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>
>What's the best way to measure that someone is mentally ready to
>jump with a camera?

One good sign is when they are proficient at the discipline they want to film. Want to film 4-way? The ability to turn 8 points in time with like-skilled people would be a good measure. Want to film tandems? A tandem rating is a good measure. AFF same thing.

Bollocks, that measure is OVERKILL


Skyper

Jun 21, 2011, 1:49 AM
Post #4 of 28 (2676 views)
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Re: [Cornjumper] Hand-mounted Video on Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
small cameras are no longer a physical safety risk

How do you come to that one?


peek  (D 8884)

Jun 21, 2011, 4:05 AM
Post #5 of 28 (2649 views)
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Re: [Cornjumper] Hand-mounted Video on Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

I made a bracket on a wrist mount altimeter for my GoPro and have had a tandem student wear it. Just once so far because that student wasn't that good at aiming it and I wonder how many students would be and whether it would be worth it.

The student in that video you pointed to did pretty good, but I guess the instructor didn't train him to pull. (I would have had him wear it on his left wrist.)

At this point I think having a small camera on the student's wrist is safer overall than having a larger camera on the instructors wrist, because the instructor would need to use their hands for emergency procedures.

I know of an experienced tandem instructor that found a camera so small that it could literally be trusted to not fall off using only a piece of double-sided tape. At that point we can't really say that there is much of a snag hazard, so they can be placed almost anywhere.

Of course there is still the distraction factor, which is the most often mentioned problem with cameras on low experienced (solo) jumpers.

At some point cameras are going to be so small that students will hide them and it take them on jumps and no one will be able to do anything about it.

Then what will we do? Modify our thoughts about the dangers. Get pissed all the time?


Skyper

Jun 21, 2011, 4:16 AM
Post #6 of 28 (2645 views)
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Re: [peek] Hand-mounted Video on Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
no one will be able to do anything about it.

when it comes to insurance claims, insurance companies will certainly be able to do something about it...


peek  (D 8884)

Jun 21, 2011, 6:07 AM
Post #7 of 28 (2608 views)
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Re: [Skyper] Hand-mounted Video on Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
no one will be able to do anything about it.

when it comes to insurance claims, insurance companies will certainly be able to do something about it...

Agreed, but I was referring to before the jump not after the jump (accident).


Southern_Man  (C License)

Jun 21, 2011, 6:09 AM
Post #8 of 28 (2608 views)
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Re: [Skyper] Hand-mounted Video on Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
no one will be able to do anything about it.

when it comes to insurance claims, insurance companies will certainly be able to do something about it...

What? I'm unsure what you are claiming?


adamT  (D 26819)

Jun 21, 2011, 6:21 AM
Post #9 of 28 (2599 views)
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Re: [Cornjumper] Hand-mounted Video on Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

I like to tell them:
"So you want to risk loosing or breaking your $300+ camera to take some awful shaky footage that no one will want to see, instead of paying $100 for some one to do it professionally and make something worth watching.

But if the camera small enough and the mounting is proper i don't really care and let them bring it along. Footage is always shit though.

A month ago a student wanted take a hi-8 generation camera with a hand strap. Yeah not gonna happen.


Skyper

Jun 21, 2011, 6:36 AM
Post #10 of 28 (2596 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] Hand-mounted Video on Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
no one will be able to do anything about it.

when it comes to insurance claims, insurance companies will certainly be able to do something about it...

What? I'm unsure what you are claiming?

imagine a situation where camera was identified as a main cause of fatal accident of the person not entitled to use the camera during jump - whatever size of that camera might be.

IMHO, life insurance will not grant the payment if they discover there were irregularities in the usage of the equipment like the situation above.


Southern_Man  (C License)

Jun 21, 2011, 7:13 AM
Post #11 of 28 (2565 views)
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Re: [Skyper] Hand-mounted Video on Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
imagine a situation where camera was identified as a main cause of fatal accident of the person not entitled to use the camera during jump - whatever size of that camera might be.

IMHO, life insurance will not grant the payment if they discover there were irregularities in the usage of the equipment like the situation above.

Hmmm, I'm not an expert but I don't know of any life insurance policies written with exclusions like that? I do know some that have excluded activities (like skydiving) or exclusions for suicide but none with exlusions for some sort of contributory negligence (maybe too strong a word) on the part of the deceased. You die, and it wasn't one of the excluded activities, they pay out. At least that is how I understand and have seen it work.

Perhaps you have an example of what you are talking about?

Also, are you American? I have seen some claims here and there from Canadians about medical insurance not paying out under certain conditions (like misuse of equipment) that seem sort of strange to me. I confess I have no idea how insurance works in other countries. I checked your profile but it didn't list it.


yoink

Jun 21, 2011, 11:29 AM
Post #12 of 28 (2506 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Hand-mounted Video on Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
>
>What's the best way to measure that someone is mentally ready to
>jump with a camera?

One good sign is when they are proficient at the discipline they want to film. Want to film 4-way? The ability to turn 8 points in time with like-skilled people would be a good measure. Want to film tandems? A tandem rating is a good measure. AFF same thing.

Bollocks, that measure is OVERKILL

Sounds pretty good to me actually. Knowledge of what to expect (good and bad) on a certain type of skydive, and how not to endanger the people on it seem pretty critical prior to trying to film it.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Jun 21, 2011, 1:03 PM
Post #13 of 28 (2491 views)
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Re: [yoink] Hand-mounted Video on Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

Not taking a position as to whether it is necessarily good or bad - but just observationally, I regularly/routinely see (and even jump with - in my case when instructing AFF) videographers who are quite skilled, and extremely capable in both their craft (including their safety/awareness) and performance in flying video - without holding any such actual instructional ratings, themselves.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 21, 2011, 1:40 PM
Post #14 of 28 (2475 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Hand-mounted Video on Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

>Bollocks, that measure is OVERKILL

If you can't even do the discipline you are trying to video, it might make sense to get a bit better at that discipline before trying to complicate things by adding a camera to your head. And given that we just had a low experienced cameraperson killed trying to get back to video a tandem - I don't think it's all that unreasonable. Might some people be able to start before that? Probably. Is it a good idea for everyone to do camera at 200 jumps? Definitely not.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jun 21, 2011, 5:59 PM
Post #15 of 28 (2441 views)
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Re: [billvon] Hand-mounted Video on Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Bollocks, that measure is OVERKILL

If you can't even do the discipline you are trying to video, it might make sense to get a bit better at that discipline before trying to complicate things by adding a camera to your head. And given that we just had a low experienced cameraperson killed trying to get back to video a tandem - I don't think it's all that unreasonable. Might some people be able to start before that? Probably. Is it a good idea for everyone to do camera at 200 jumps? Definitely not.

Quote:
Sounds pretty good to me actually. Knowledge of what to expect (good and bad) on a certain type of skydive, and how not to endanger the people on it seem pretty critical prior to trying to film it.


Bull shit, the VAST majority of tandem camera flyers I know do NOT throw drogues and all them are very accomplished camera flyers.

as to knowledge of what to expect, you dont need to have flown tandem or turned a dozen points in time to learn the requirements of flying camera for either discipline .


(This post was edited by Squeak on Jun 21, 2011, 6:04 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jun 21, 2011, 6:36 PM
Post #16 of 28 (2432 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Hand-mounted Video on Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

>Bull shit, the VAST majority of tandem camera flyers I know do NOT throw
>drogues and all them are very accomplished camera flyers.

Yep. And they'd be better still if they were tandem masters.

>as to knowledge of what to expect, you dont need to have flown tandem
>or turned a dozen points in time to learn the requirements of flying
>camera for either discipline .

True. But if you are newer jumper trying to prove you are ready, they are excellent examples that you are.

Nowadays newer jumpers do 150 jumps, often a series of bad bigways and solos, stick a camera on their heads and consider themselves ready to do video. They're not. Actually learning to do the discipline they are trying to video would be better preparation than 150 bad bigways and solos.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jun 21, 2011, 7:14 PM
Post #17 of 28 (2419 views)
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Re: [billvon] Hand-mounted Video on Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Bull shit, the VAST majority of tandem camera flyers I know do NOT throw
>drogues and all them are very accomplished camera flyers.

Yep. And they'd be better still if they were tandem masters.

>as to knowledge of what to expect, you dont need to have flown tandem
>or turned a dozen points in time to learn the requirements of flying
>camera for either discipline .

True. But if you are newer jumper trying to prove you are ready, they are excellent examples that you are.

Nowadays newer jumpers do 150 jumps, often a series of bad bigways and solos, stick a camera on their heads and consider themselves ready to do video. They're not. Actually learning to do the discipline they are trying to video would be better preparation than 150 bad bigways and solos.
I disagree and you are back-pedling from your original assertion.
How many 150-300 jump tandem masters do you know.
Some one that has dedicated the time and effort into learning to lfy camera well and has 300-400 jumps can well do a very good job of flying tandem camera.
Here in OZ most DZ wont let you touch a tandem rig without , near 1000 jumps, that a bloody long time to wait to fly tandem camera.

Like i said your guide is OVERKILL


(This post was edited by Squeak on Jun 21, 2011, 7:15 PM)


steveorino  (D 26782)

Jun 21, 2011, 7:30 PM
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Re: [Cornjumper] Hand-mounted Video on Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

That student can't possibly do as good as job as I can! CoolTongue


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 21, 2011, 9:05 PM
Post #19 of 28 (2381 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Hand-mounted Video on Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

>How many 150-300 jump tandem masters do you know.

None, they need 500 jumps minimum. (I know, o the horror of having to do 500 jumps to gain enough experience to make money skydiving! It's really not the end of the world, though.)

>Some one that has dedicated the time and effort into learning to lfy
>camera well and has 300-400 jumps can well do a very good job of flying
>tandem camera.

Perhaps. Someone who is a TM and has those skills will be an even better camera person.

>Here in OZ most DZ wont let you touch a tandem rig without , near 1000
>jumps, that a bloody long time to wait to fly tandem camera.

Yep. And for sure, people want to do tandem camera and make money skydiving as soon as they possibly can. As we've seen that's not always the best idea.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jun 21, 2011, 9:17 PM
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Re: [billvon] Hand-mounted Video on Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yep. And for sure, people want to do tandem camera and make money skydiving as soon as they possibly can. As we've seen that's not always the best idea.

No one asked for a "best idea" you are back peddling again. go back and read your original post that i replied to.

We dont live in the ideal world and it's asinine to think otherwise.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 21, 2011, 9:39 PM
Post #21 of 28 (2370 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Hand-mounted Video on Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

>No one asked for a "best idea"

"What's the best way to measure that someone is mentally ready to jump with a camera?"

>you are back peddling again.

Nope. If they are proficient in the discipline they wish to film, that is a good sign they are ready.

You can disagree all you like. But if you are trying to convince me that I don't really have that opinion, then you might not be too happy with the result.

>We dont live in the ideal world and it's asinine to think otherwise.

Never claimed we did. Sometimes it's worthwhile to try to make our world slightly better, though - even though it's not ideal to begin with, and even though you think it's asinine.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jun 21, 2011, 9:53 PM
Post #22 of 28 (2364 views)
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Re: [billvon] Hand-mounted Video on Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>No one asked for a "best idea"

"What's the best way to measure that someone is mentally ready to jump with a camera?"

>you are back peddling again.

Nope. If they are proficient in the discipline they wish to film, that is a good sign they are ready.


I'm not trying to "change" your opinion,
I'm merely illustrating that it's wrong, ineffective and stupid overkill.


(This post was edited by Squeak on Jun 21, 2011, 9:54 PM)


Liemberg  (Student)

Jun 22, 2011, 2:31 AM
Post #23 of 28 (2339 views)
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Re: [billvon] Hand-mounted Video on Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Want to film tandems? A tandem rating is a good measure.

Though that may be true when you want to film the tandem wearing the tandemrig yourself, with a handcam on your left hand and a student/passenger on your belly, for the rest it is indeed overkill.

Not suggesting that there's never a wannabee cameraflyer who ends up in the wrong place at the wrong time but proficiency in falling straight down while trailing a drogue and controlling your pax does NOTHING for the skills you need as a cameraflyer.

Usually that set of skills is not met before +300 jumps / + 50 camerajumps but I'm pretty sure that if only TI's were allowed doing outside camera on tandems we are using an enormous axe for a very small piece of wood...


ShotterMG  (Student)

Jun 22, 2011, 5:42 AM
Post #24 of 28 (2317 views)
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Re: [billvon] Hand-mounted Video on Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

Want to film tandems? A tandem rating is a good measure. AFF same thing.

Hahaha, This is really off the mark. Sounds good, maybe, in the world of Internet skydiving instruction. But in real life skydiving tandem masters are most often the least skilled fliers on the DZ. 8 out of 10 couldn't film a tandem or even give a coach jump. Tandem masters filming skydiver would be a disaster. Some are current and talented in other disciplines but the majority are rote drogue chuckers who couldnt turn 2 points in a four way.


(This post was edited by ShotterMG on Jun 22, 2011, 5:44 AM)


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Jun 22, 2011, 7:45 AM
Post #25 of 28 (2288 views)
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Re: [ShotterMG] Hand-mounted Video on Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Want to film tandems? A tandem rating is a good measure. AFF same thing.

Hahaha, This is really off the mark. Sounds good, maybe, in the world of Internet skydiving instruction. But in real life skydiving tandem masters are most often the least skilled fliers on the DZ. 8 out of 10 couldn't film a tandem or even give a coach jump. Tandem masters filming skydiver would be a disaster. Some are current and talented in other disciplines but the majority are rote drogue chuckers who couldnt turn 2 points in a four way.

Not at the two DZ's I jump at, but you may have a point if your made up statistic was more like 50%.

Billvon has a good point, but I think being proficient may be a minor point to "Knowledge through experience" of what is happening in the subject one is filming. It would be good for a Camera Flier to know the little things that can be presented to them when and AFF goes bad out the door, or a tandem's trap door, side spin etc. Same foe RW/VRW filming.

Matt


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