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Reply from a recent Vigil tech support query.

 

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PiLFy  (A License)

Jun 16, 2011, 4:40 PM
Post #1 of 73 (2159 views)
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Reply from a recent Vigil tech support query. Can't Post

I was following the Cypres vs. Vigil thread, off & on. I didn't receive this reply until after the thread was locked. I'm not sure why it was locked (too long?). Hopefully, I'm not breaking any rules by sharing this. Personally, I don't believe the arguments made for the Cypres servicing & short service life. My Newb opinion doesn't rate too high in that. So, here's what Vigil had to say:

Hello Kenny,

Candace has passed on your email to me so I will answer on her behalf.

We do believe you have valid questions.

The VIGIL does a self-check and goes through every component of the unit during its start-up, include the sensor. Sensors, just like any other electronic component, do fail on rare occasion and if it would, the unit would give you an error code (#3 to be specific), upon you would send the unit in to us in order to get this issue fixed.
Mandatory 4 or 8-year checks ensures a battery change but won't prevent a sensor failure (or any other electronic component for that matter) from happening the next day. Again, since there's no scheduled maintenance, the VIGIL will also indicate the need for a new battery during its start-up if so required.
The life expectancy of our batteries is 10 years or 2,000 jumps but we have reports and knowledge of units in the field of having logged several thousands of jumps. The Vigil has a very proficient power consumption and uses a much different technology than other AAD's on the market, such as the use of two power sources. The 20 year life expectancy is based upon the cutter, the Pulses Plus Element (the power source purely for the cutter) as well as all commercial grade components with the unit.
I hope this clarifies some of your questions and concerns.

Again, thank you for contacting us and don't hesitate to call or email again if you require more info and/or clarification!

Best regards,

Vladi Pesa
___________________________________________________
Kenny,

I just noticed a little typo in my email I sent.

The life expectancy of our battery is 5 years (not two) or 2,000 jumps, with a mandatory battery change after 10 years (if not used).

My apologies for any confusion I may have caused.

Vladi



spootch  (C License)

Jun 16, 2011, 7:22 PM
Post #2 of 73 (2052 views)
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Re: [PiLFy] Reply from a recent Vigil tech support query. [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you Kenny.

There you have it folks VIGIL is the best!LaughLaughLaugh


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 16, 2011, 10:04 PM
Post #3 of 73 (1994 views)
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Re: [PiLFy] Reply from a recent Vigil tech support query. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I don't believe the arguments made for the Cypres servicing & short service life.

Just to be clear, the Cypres also does a self check at every start up, and will display an error code if there is a problem. It also displays the current battery voltage at the end of the self check.

In terms of the servicing, I don't think that four years is an unreasonable time frame for an electronic instrument that spends a portion of it's time taking severe abuse (opening shock), and that literally is poised to sever your reserve closing loop in short order. To me, that seems like an area where a degree of reliability is called for, and sending a unit for a check every four years doesn't seem like overkill (keep in mind that 4 years could equal upwards of 2000 jumps for some folks).

As far as the service life goes, who knows? The Vigil hasn't even been on the market for 12 years (released in 2003) so the jury is still out in terms of AAD service life. My guess would be that 12 years is a conservative estimate on the part of Airtec, with the idea being to get the units out of the field before there is a failure. With that in mind, we won't really know how the Vigil stacks up against the Cypres in this area until 2017, when the first Vigils out there have surpassed the 12 year mark, and made it a few more years in the field.

Let's remember that the Cypres 12 year life limit was introduced long after the Cypres itself. Early on, there was no life limit, and everyone thought they would last forever. With less than 10 years in the market, there's nothing to say that the Vigil won't also sprout a life limit at some point in the future. Who knows what time in the field will reveal about the Vigil after 10, 12 or 14 years.


(This post was edited by davelepka on Jun 16, 2011, 10:05 PM)


Nelyubin  (D 18617)

Jun 17, 2011, 1:55 AM
Post #4 of 73 (1946 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Reply from a recent Vigil tech support query. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Just to be clear, the Cypres also does a self check at every start up, and will display an error code if there is a problem. It also displays the current battery voltage at the end of the self check.

In terms of the servicing, I don't think that four years is an unreasonable time frame for an electronic instrument that spends a portion of it's time taking severe abuse (opening shock), and that literally is poised to sever your reserve closing loop in short order. To me, that seems like an area where a degree of reliability is called for, and sending a unit for a check every four years doesn't seem like overkill (keep in mind that 4 years could equal upwards of 2000 jumps for some folks).
...
I agree with you that 4 years a reasonable time to verify the Cypres.
I do not agree with your conclusions about the reasons for testing. Disagree with your reasoning on the complete test Cypres its elements.

Cypres does not check the deviation of the parameters of the pressure sensor. This is the main reason for testing the device. This is the only "mechanical" component in the AAD.


theonlyski  (D License)

Jun 17, 2011, 4:42 AM
Post #5 of 73 (1905 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Reply from a recent Vigil tech support query. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Just to be clear, the Cypres also does a self check at every start up, and will display an error code if there is a problem. It also displays the current battery voltage at the end of the self check.

For those of you reading this that own Cypres-2's, they don't display the battery voltage on startup. They count down from 10 to 0, and if you're in your service window, the date of the next service due.


Abedy  (D 10153)

Jun 17, 2011, 6:36 AM
Post #6 of 73 (1841 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Reply from a recent Vigil tech support query. [In reply to] Can't Post

CYPRES 2 tells you how many jumps were made with it, its serial number and the date of the next service due if you just press the red button (or blue or yellow Wink) after it counted down to 0.

@All: When we were given a tour of Airtec, Helmut Cloth told us about many aspects. Part of this was the search for a battery that would be small enough, resistant enough and powerful enough. They tested a great deal of batteries available and slightly came to terms with a plant that produced batteries as to "steer" them towards what was needed. That was at the beginning of the 1990s, so both plants pioneered in some ways. He told us that they were "pretty sure" the new CYPRES 2 batteries would last longer than 4 years but since it is their "first directive" to provide the safest solutions available they set this limit of four years (which is a conservative estimate I suppose). But during the service you not only get a new battery (quite often a new version/build) but also the latest firmware installed and everything is checked including filters etc pp. They also check the mechanical components under several, different conditions. Looks quite interesting to see a bunch of cables coming out of a pressurized/airtight freezer where the CYPRES units are exposed to increasing and decreasing air pressure at different temperatures - same goes in containers that are heated.

I can only tell anyone interested to just go a see with your own eyes; ask for a tour and you'll be impressed.


theonlyski  (D License)

Jun 17, 2011, 6:39 AM
Post #7 of 73 (1837 views)
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Re: [Abedy] Reply from a recent Vigil tech support query. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
CYPRES 2 tells you how many jumps were made with it, its serial number and the date of the next service due if you just press the red button (or blue or yellow Wink) after it counted down to 0.

I know that, but when I told that to a couple fun jumpers last weekend, they were surprised that it was able to do so.

(Still doesn't show the battery voltage though Tongue )


Abedy  (D 10153)

Jun 17, 2011, 6:53 AM
Post #8 of 73 (1825 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Reply from a recent Vigil tech support query. [In reply to] Can't Post

We asked for this change as well. There are some facts: If the battery charge/voltage is too low, it will display an error code. If it's in its operating range it doesn't provide much useful information (and some jumpers even start to "mine is bigger^T higher than yours!)
Example: After a longer break, e. g. winter, the voltage is a little lower due to chemical processes etc. But after a very short while this effect has gone. But jumpers might be worried (WTF!!! Only 6,24 volts!!!!!) though it's still comfortably in its operating range.
So I can live with CYPRES 2 not displaying the voltage. Cool


Nelyubin  (D 18617)

Jun 17, 2011, 8:26 AM
Post #9 of 73 (1757 views)
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Re: [Abedy] Reply from a recent Vigil tech support query. [In reply to] Can't Post

You never know how many have gone from the ideal parameters pressure sensor Cypres. An opportunity for years you jump with a faulty sensor. Such an instrument is at best useless. You just have to believe.


Abedy  (D 10153)

Jun 17, 2011, 8:38 AM
Post #10 of 73 (1744 views)
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Re: [Nelyubin] Reply from a recent Vigil tech support query. [In reply to] Can't Post

I understand English is not your first language (nor is it mine) but could you please be a little more precise about your point? IIUC you mean there are/were a great number of CYPRES with faulty sensors? This can't be true. This would mean they either do not test them (but they DO and I (and many, many others) SAW it on-site) or they buy cheap shit that goes faulty after a short period of time (which is also not true if you see how scrupulously they choose the companies to deliver parts.)
Apart from that I would like some evidence for the statement of yours instead of a religious-like "You gotta believe." Crazy

But heck... I'm not gonna go into another useless discussion with you again. Consider yourself plonked. (German Usenet term) Nuff said.


Nelyubin  (D 18617)

Jun 17, 2011, 8:46 AM
Post #11 of 73 (1738 views)
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Re: [Abedy] Reply from a recent Vigil tech support query. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not exactly put it. You can only trust the manufacturer (Airtek)
This example, you little?
http://www.cypres.cc/...tin_april_2008_e.pdf

Wink
The controversy comes to a standstill when start advertising slogans. Try to argue his view of the technical details.


riggerpaul  (D 28098)

Jun 17, 2011, 9:18 AM
Post #12 of 73 (1705 views)
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Re: [Abedy] Reply from a recent Vigil tech support query. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I understand English is not your first language (nor is it mine) but could you please be a little more precise about your point? IIUC you mean there are/were a great number of CYPRES with faulty sensors? This can't be true. This would mean they either do not test them (but they DO and I (and many, many others) SAW it on-site) or they buy cheap shit that goes faulty after a short period of time (which is also not true if you see how scrupulously they choose the companies to deliver parts.)
Apart from that I would like some evidence for the statement of yours instead of a religious-like "You gotta believe." Crazy

But heck... I'm not gonna go into another useless discussion with you again. Consider yourself plonked. (German Usenet term) Nuff said.

Testing before the fact is all well and good, but once the device is in service, how does anyone verify the sensor without some sort of reference? If they put 2 sensors in, at least they could check for a certain max variance between them. But with only a single sensor, and no way to relate it to a verifiable value, you "just have to trust".

I believe this is what Nelyubin is trying to talk about.

And, as he said before, if your sensor gets replaced during your maintenance, you'll never know either.

This is why I think it would be a good thing to display something about the sensor during the power on tests. Having a barometer available would be all that's needed to get a good idea that the device has reasonable data.

Why rely on trust when we could easily verify?


Abedy  (D 10153)

Jun 17, 2011, 9:30 AM
Post #13 of 73 (1688 views)
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Re: [riggerpaul] Reply from a recent Vigil tech support query. [In reply to] Can't Post

They check the sensor data against the values of the barometer(s) in the pressure chamber during service. Check against an "absolute" value, if you like to.

The idea of yours is OK so far but would mean to have a calibrated barometer handy during the initialisation of the CYPRES.


Nelyubin  (D 18617)

Jun 17, 2011, 9:44 AM
Post #14 of 73 (1681 views)
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Re: [Abedy] Reply from a recent Vigil tech support query. [In reply to] Can't Post

You do not really understand the difference when a sensor is checked every 4 years, and the sensor package is checked at any moment?


DaVinciflies

Jun 17, 2011, 9:45 AM
Post #15 of 73 (1678 views)
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Re: [riggerpaul] Reply from a recent Vigil tech support query. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why rely on trust when we could easily verify?

Cost?


Nelyubin  (D 18617)

Jun 17, 2011, 9:48 AM
Post #16 of 73 (1673 views)
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Re: [DaVinciflies] Reply from a recent Vigil tech support query. [In reply to] Can't Post

For Vigil 0,00$ Smile


For Cypres can say Abedy. He was on tour Airtek. Only without the commercials. Please.


(This post was edited by Nelyubin on Jun 17, 2011, 9:58 AM)


riggerpaul  (D 28098)

Jun 17, 2011, 10:11 AM
Post #17 of 73 (1642 views)
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Re: [DaVinciflies] Reply from a recent Vigil tech support query. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Why rely on trust when we could easily verify?

Cost?

What cost?

I have a barometer. Lots of airports have a barometer handy.

Every airplane has an altimeter that can be used for a rough check.

IIRC if you set an aircraft altimeter to zero, the little window reads the local barometric pressure - the "station pressure".

One thing that would be important to understand is that aviation commonly speaks the barometer setting corrected to sea level. Things like ATIS and AWOS do not tell the "station pressure", but they tell the local sea level setting.

To do a proper test of an AAD, you would need the "station pressure", that is, an uncorrected barometer value.

But, as I said, you can easily get the "station pressure" from an aircraft altimeter if you have no other source.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Jun 17, 2011, 2:43 PM
Post #18 of 73 (1535 views)
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Re: [Nelyubin] Reply from a recent Vigil tech support query. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think what Nelyubin is saying (and Nelyubin, please correct me if I am wrong), is that with the Cypres, the sensor gets checked once every 4 years. With the vigil, the unit can display what the sensor is currently reading and that value can be checked against an accurate barometer.

This is two different approaches to dealing with the same issue. The choice is then personal preference, which is better to you?

I personally like the idea that I know that the Cypres's out there are getting checked every 4 years. I have no idea how often, or if at all, if Vigils owners are checking what the display is reading against a barometer. I have never heard or seen anyone with a Vigil do that check.

Would be interesting if it was a required maintenance for the rigger repacking the reserve with a Vigil to verify that the reading is within 10mbar at each re-pack.

Derek V


theonlyski  (D License)

Jun 17, 2011, 3:08 PM
Post #19 of 73 (1527 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Reply from a recent Vigil tech support query. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Would be interesting if it was a required maintenance for the rigger repacking the reserve with a Vigil to verify that the reading is within 10mbar at each re-pack.

I would be all for it if they supplied an accurate barometer to the riggers.


riggerpaul  (D 28098)

Jun 17, 2011, 3:27 PM
Post #20 of 73 (1516 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Reply from a recent Vigil tech support query. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Would be interesting if it was a required maintenance for the rigger repacking the reserve with a Vigil to verify that the reading is within 10mbar at each re-pack.

I would be all for it if they supplied an accurate barometer to the riggers.

Who is "they"?

I have a lot of money invested in my tools. Nobody supplied them to me.

I am sure you are no different.

So, if that is part of our craft, if that's what it takes to do the best we can on behalf of our customers, won't you get the tool you need?


theonlyski  (D License)

Jun 17, 2011, 3:32 PM
Post #21 of 73 (1522 views)
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Re: [riggerpaul] Reply from a recent Vigil tech support query. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Would be interesting if it was a required maintenance for the rigger repacking the reserve with a Vigil to verify that the reading is within 10mbar at each re-pack.

I would be all for it if they supplied an accurate barometer to the riggers.

Who is "they"?

I have a lot of money invested in my tools. Nobody supplied them to me.

I am sure you are no different.

So, if that is part of our craft, if that's what it takes to do the best we can on behalf of our customers, won't you get the tool you need?

Depends how much they cost. Wink I don't pack many rigs, and yes, my tools were expensive, but they can be used on all the rigs I pack.


riggerpaul  (D 28098)

Jun 17, 2011, 3:56 PM
Post #22 of 73 (1510 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Reply from a recent Vigil tech support query. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Would be interesting if it was a required maintenance for the rigger repacking the reserve with a Vigil to verify that the reading is within 10mbar at each re-pack.

I would be all for it if they supplied an accurate barometer to the riggers.

Who is "they"?

I have a lot of money invested in my tools. Nobody supplied them to me.

I am sure you are no different.

So, if that is part of our craft, if that's what it takes to do the best we can on behalf of our customers, won't you get the tool you need?

Depends how much they cost. Wink I don't pack many rigs, and yes, my tools were expensive, but they can be used on all the rigs I pack.

Don't most rigs you pack have an AAD?

I am not limiting my wish that AADs gave us more information to any particular brand. I think it would be great for all AADs to let us be proactive in determining their health. Just because there is only one that lets us do that now doesn't mean it will always be that way.

A quick check says there are digital barometers available in a wide range of prices, from about $30 up.

I don't in any way think of this as a replacement for periodic maintenance and evaluation by folks with more specialized tools than I have. So I don't presume I'd need a lab-quality instrument. Personally, there is a barometer in my home weather station already. So I'd just use it.


PiLFy  (A License)

Jun 17, 2011, 4:18 PM
Post #23 of 73 (1500 views)
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Re: [Abedy] Reply from a recent Vigil tech support query. [In reply to] Can't Post

Along this line of inquiry, I've sent a follow-up e-mail to Vladi. It will be interesting to see how Vigil addresses this.


PiLFy  (A License)

Jun 17, 2011, 5:36 PM
Post #24 of 73 (1482 views)
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Re: [PiLFy] Reply from a recent Vigil tech support query. [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,

I am currently out of the office until June 27th and will have limited internet access. I will reply to all voice mails and email periodically and upon my return in the order it was received.

Thank you!
___________________________________________________
On Jun 17, 2011, at 7:14 PM, ***********************wrote:

Hello Again Vladi,
A further question has come up in our debate. How exactly does the Vigil2 self-diagnostic determine the pressure sensor is accurately reading atmospheric pressure? How do we, as end users, know that the unit is properly calibrated w/respect to barometric pressure?
Thank You, & have a nice weekend.
Kenny



BrianM  (D 661)

Jun 17, 2011, 6:35 PM
Post #25 of 73 (1454 views)
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Re: [riggerpaul] Reply from a recent Vigil tech support query. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Just because there is only one that lets us do that now doesn't mean it will always be that way.

The Argus will also display the barometric pressure.

In reply to:
A quick check says there are digital barometers available in a wide range of prices, from about $30 up.

I don't in any way think of this as a replacement for periodic maintenance and evaluation by folks with more specialized tools than I have. So I don't presume I'd need a lab-quality instrument. Personally, there is a barometer in my home weather station already. So I'd just use it.

With no idea of the accuracy or precision of the barometer in your home weather station, comparing it to an AAD is of limited value, IMO. In fact, I'd have more faith in the readings from the AAD, which presumably meets some specified level of precision and accuracy and has been calibrated, than in the readings from the consumer device in a home weather station.


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