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Chasing your student into the ground!?!

 

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rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jun 15, 2011, 7:25 AM
Post #76 of 162 (1853 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't blame the coach for the overall situation, that responsibility falls to the instructor who handed the student over.

I agree with Dave (as usual).

the coach had two jobs we are questioning:
1 - pull at his pull altitude (which would have sent a strong communication to the student that it was pull time). Clearly a fail here as this is a defined job description for the role.
2 - A good gear check (x3) - coached students are supposed to be self-supervised - not a fail, as the other jumper is responsible and the coach is a backup - but still not a win at all for the coach, he failed on the backup (possibly, not so cut and dried and I didn't see the video)

the AFF Instructor (1 thing) -
1 - testing the student as to readiness for self supervision. It sounds like the AFFI didn't think the student was ready - but passed him anyway. Clearly a fail here.


Side commentary - One thing though - the only thing an AFFI has to go on for recurrency is one dive = the ground presence of the student (demo of knowledge and proficiency) and the air performance of the student on a SINGLE observed jump. He can absolutely pass that one dive on both counts and that means the student can be cleared, and then he can tank the next dives in spectacular fashion - and no one should be able to take the AFFI to task (none of us have crystal balls to the future). (of course, if the AFFI finds out that the student is unsafe after the fact, there is a responsibility to get the student back into training.....but that's not what we're talking about here)

We do see a LOT of 20/20 hindsight judgmentalism on these boards. But not in this case. If the AFFI was concerned, then passing to a coach was clearly wrong.

Lastly, re-currency jumpers can be the absolute worst - especially ones from 'back when' - they still think they know it all. Assigning a strong willed AFFI is a good idea here.


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jun 15, 2011, 7:29 AM)


Scrumpot  (D License)

Jun 15, 2011, 10:04 AM
Post #77 of 162 (1804 views)
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Re: [DSE] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The internet makes it possible for people to beat you up but know that for every one person that chews on you for your actions, there are at least 5-10 silent sets of eyes that learn from (and appreciate) what you've shared.

Bears repeating. +1. Ditto. Etc...

THANK YOU!!


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jun 15, 2011, 10:14 AM
Post #78 of 162 (1794 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry Dave, but you really don't get it.
Anyone who has not spent a lot of time working with students has no idea how much a students performance can vary from jump to jump.
This is not to defend or attack, just to explain.
Let's apply your standards to you and your posting. I've read alot of what you've written, and generally it's been very good.
But......on this thread, you started by attacking the terrible performance of an AFF -I (without reading the facebook thread that was in plain sight saying this was a coach jump), discussed more than once the leg straps (if you had experience with a lot of student gear, it's bulky, one-size-fits-no-one, and when in the position that this guy was in, leg straps that are plenty tight can appear loose. Not saying this was definitely the case with only one viewing, just that it might have been. I've seen this before in Cessna climbouts), refer to "that jackass posts the video online and thinks it's cool that his Protrack reported a 300ft opening altitude" (the guy posted the video as a learning tool, he never express pride in what went on), Then proceed to now tear into the Instructor who made the previous jump with the guy "If you want to get mad, how about start with the AFF I who passed this jumper to a coach after an admittedly unsatisfactory re-certification jump" (even though no-one said his previous jump was unsatisfactory, just not perfect. None of us have seen that video, so how can you judge?), then express a total misunderstanding of jumper re-currency training and who is allowed to do what "An SL instructor can supervise an SL jump, not make a one-on-one freefall jump in an instructional capacity" and when told this isn't the case, devote a few more posts trying to still justify your position.
I'm not saying that this coach didn't make a very important mistake (not pulling at altitude), just thinking about what standards you hold YOURSELF to, and wondering if some recognition of error or apology to those involved in this incident might not be appropriate.


airtwardo  (D License)

Jun 15, 2011, 10:32 AM
Post #79 of 162 (1784 views)
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Re: [ufk22] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

Is the video available anywhere else?

Coming in late to the discussion and I'd like to see what everyone is talking about if possible.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 15, 2011, 10:33 AM
Post #80 of 162 (1783 views)
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Re: [ufk22] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I stand by what I said.

Take it or leave it, I don't really care. It's an internet message board, not the supreme court. What I say here, or you say here has very little bearing on the real world.

If you aren't ready to hear the good, the bad and the ugly, then don't post your shit (videos, pictures, or opinions) online for the entire world (literally) to see.

Quote:
then express a total misunderstanding of jumper re-currency training and who is allowed to do what

I stated several times that sometimes there is a difference between sticking to the 'letter of the law', and doing what just makes sense. Just because you can read the regs in such a way that it appears to endorse one course of action doesn't mean that course of action is always going to be the right one. While you do have to stick to the regs in terms of how permissive you can be, nothing states that you cannot impose your own, more conservative, guidelines if they appear to be prudent.

If you think an SL I with no freefall instructional experience, or a coach with 102 jumps is a good fit for a recertification jump, get video.


JohnnyMarko

Jun 15, 2011, 10:52 AM
Post #81 of 162 (1782 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Is the video available anywhere else?

Coming in late to the discussion and I'd like to see what everyone is talking about if possible.

I've got a screen recording before it got pulled, but don't know the copyright rules or whatever


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jun 15, 2011, 11:04 AM
Post #82 of 162 (1773 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I stand by what I said.

Take it or leave it, I don't really care. It's an internet message board, not the supreme court. What I say here, or you say here has very little bearing on the real world.

If you aren't ready to hear the good, the bad and the ugly, then don't post your shit (videos, pictures, or opinions) online for the entire world (literally) to see.

Quote:
then express a total misunderstanding of jumper re-currency training and who is allowed to do what

I stated several times that sometimes there is a difference between sticking to the 'letter of the law', and doing what just makes sense. Just because you can read the regs in such a way that it appears to endorse one course of action doesn't mean that course of action is always going to be the right one. While you do have to stick to the regs in terms of how permissive you can be, nothing states that you cannot impose your own, more conservative, guidelines if they appear to be prudent.

If you think an SL I with no freefall instructional experience, or a coach with 102 jumps is a good fit for a recertification jump, get video.
Creating straw dogs to howl at doesn't really add to the discussion.
To repeat myself
I certainly hope all the posters that are so quick to condemn are willing to hold themselves to the same standard of "no mistakes ever" perfection that they seem to be willing to impose on others.
I've been around long enough to know that is NOT the case, but I keep hoping........


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 15, 2011, 11:16 AM
Post #83 of 162 (1769 views)
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Re: [ufk22] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I certainly hope all the posters that are so quick to condemn are willing to hold themselves to the same standard of "no mistakes ever" perfection that they seem to be willing to impose on others.

I'll make two points in reference to this -

First, what's to say that I (or anyone) doesn't hold themselves to that standard? Not that we achieve it, but that we don't work towards it every day and struggle with our own shortcomings when they arise?

Second, the way that everyone learns from these incidents is if you go trough, point by point, and high light every mistake that was made (or even possibly made) and show how it contributed to the end result. To do any less would be assuming that everyone reading could easily see and understand the situation, and how it came to be, and for my money that's a piss poor assumption, and a sure way to waste a learning opportunity and do nothing to prevent it from happening again.


airtwardo  (D License)

Jun 15, 2011, 1:14 PM
Post #84 of 162 (1730 views)
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Re: [ufk22] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

I certainly hope all the posters that are so quick to condemn are willing to hold themselves to the same standard of "no mistakes ever" perfection that they seem to be willing to impose on others.
Maybe it's just me, but I see more discussion than condemnation...I guess it has to do with how you see it, and how thin your skin is.

It's also a great motivator not to fuck up, if ya don't like the heat kind of thing. Wink

Personally I have no problem with a no holds barred critique of my actions when people's lives are involved...I ask for and expect nothing less from my peers. It's all part of the path in regard to striving for 'perfection'. Cool


DigitalDave  (A 57258)

Jun 15, 2011, 1:58 PM
Post #85 of 162 (1710 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

Personally, I don't see the big deal with people pointing out other's mistakes. I've had folks at the DZ give me critiques on things that I already knew and/or had already been talked to about. I'd rather hear it five times from five different people than zero times.

I'm just glad someone cares enough to want to help me. Likewise, I have thick skin, so I don't condemn the messenger for his method of delivery. Not everyone can deliver a Brian Germainesqe critique and make us feel warm and fuzzy while simultaneously telling us we're wrong.

I'm sure if davelepka posted a video of him making a mistake, he'd get crushed on here. But I suspect, he'd man up and and say "yeah, I fucked up".


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 15, 2011, 5:22 PM
Post #86 of 162 (1657 views)
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Re: [DigitalDave] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

A happy post!

In reply to:
I'm just glad someone cares enough to want to help me.
And at the end of the day, that's the point of it all.

In reply to:
...so I don't condemn the messenger for his method of delivery. Not everyone can deliver a Brian Germainesqe critique and make us feel warm and fuzzy while simultaneously telling us we're wrong.
Now THERE'S a sign of maturity. Quite refreshing it is.

In reply to:
I'm sure if davelepka posted a video of him making a mistake, he'd get crushed on here. But I suspect, he'd man up and and say "yeah, I fucked up".
And you would be right.

Great post, dude. Great post.
Now, can you bottle that attitude and sell it?


skypilotA1  (D 17101)

Jun 16, 2011, 7:11 PM
Post #87 of 162 (1518 views)
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Re: [crotalus01] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, it may seem strange, but I have been on several (eight) instructional jumps where the student simply froze and refused to pull. I had to pull for them, and twice the student actually fought me, not letting me pull their reserve. Occasionally people do weird things under stress.


dks13827  (C 9293)

Jun 16, 2011, 8:35 PM
Post #88 of 162 (1487 views)
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Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

Back in the day AAD's were not common. Every year there were always several cutaways with no reserve pull that none of us could ever understand. Even highly experienced jumpers sometimes did that. Now I have seen the recent videos of jumpers in distress who wait for the AAD to save them, which fortunately did occur in the videos we have seen.
There must be something to this... something that causes a complete freeze up of a person... maybe it is just plain old brainlock. IMO AAD's are clearly saving a lot of people's lives and the Indonesian accident could have had a much better ending if AAD's had been in use.


airtwardo  (D License)

Jun 17, 2011, 1:34 AM
Post #89 of 162 (1465 views)
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Re: [dks13827] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Back in the day AAD's were not common. Every year there were always several cutaways with no reserve pull that none of us could ever understand. Even highly experienced jumpers sometimes did that. Now I have seen the recent videos of jumpers in distress who wait for the AAD to save them, which fortunately did occur in the videos we have seen.
There must be something to this... something that causes a complete freeze up of a person... maybe it is just plain old brainlock. IMO AAD's are clearly saving a lot of people's lives and the Indonesian accident could have had a much better ending if AAD's had been in use.

No question AADs save lives, however IF you 'freeze up' and simply wait for the battery box...you're a meat bomb not a skydiver.


Full time consideration of another endeavor might be in order.


(not directed at you dks)


polarbear  (D 25673)

Jun 17, 2011, 12:14 PM
Post #90 of 162 (1385 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you think an SL I with no freefall instructional experience, or a coach with 102 jumps is a good fit for a recertification jump, get video.

I don't understand this idea that staic line instructors can't teach freefall. It is incorrect. Static line instructors can teach the entire student program, from jump one to the license check dive. They are trained, rated, and expected to teach the exact same skills as an AFF-I, they just use a different method to do so.

Only the first five jumps of the static line program are done using an actual static line. Everything after that is in freefall, and the instructor is expected to be able to teach the student, jump with the student, stay with the strudent, and evaluate the student. You cannot become an SL-I without doing these things.

The SL program has been eclipsed by AFF, but SL and IAD are still officially recognized and frequently used training programs. Many of the best skydivers today learned in the SL program. They could not have done that if SL instructors could not teach freefall.

There are no SL-I with 'no freefall instructional experience'. Such a thing does not exist; you have to instruct freefall before you can get the rating and you must be continually successful in teaching freefall to keep the rating.


Glitch  (D 10834)

Jun 17, 2011, 1:00 PM
Post #91 of 162 (1368 views)
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Re: [polarbear] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

How many static line instructors get out of the plane on 10, 15, 20, 30 second delays?


polarbear  (D 25673)

Jun 17, 2011, 1:18 PM
Post #92 of 162 (1364 views)
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Re: [Glitch] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

I know lots of them. I personally have observed that I can't see enough to diagnosis problems beyond 10 seconds; I know plenty of SL-I that agree with that number plus or minus a few.


polarbear  (D 25673)

Jun 17, 2011, 1:36 PM
Post #93 of 162 (1356 views)
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Re: [polarbear] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

Just a general comment I'd like to make here. We're focusing the debate on whether or not a coach or SL-I has the flying experience to administer a recurrency dive; the argument is that only an AFF-I should do that.

It is easy to wacth the video and conclude someone with the ability to fly in and stabilize and/or pull for the jumper (for instance an AFF-I) could have had a different outcome.

I think focusing the debate on who administers a recurrency dive is completely missing the point. I think the debate should be focused on being surprised by your student, which is what happened here.

In this particular case, the coach had well over 1000 jumps and I know from personal experience he had the flying capability to fly in on the student. I've personally witnissed it time and time again. He had personally dealt with low pulling students before and had never failed to perform appropriately; he had flown video for countless students (both Tandem and AFF) and chased them all over the sky; he had even flown video for an AFF-I course - you know, the jumps where the examiners INTENTIONALLY do everything wrong to force the candidates to deal with it - and stayed right with them the whole way.

The reason things went bad is because the student (recurrency jumper) totally screwed up, the coach was surprised and shocked, and subsequently locked up.

An AFF instructor *should* have the abilty to fly in on an unstable student and pull for him, but the question is how will he - or YOU - perform if you get surprised? AFF instructors get surprised, too...they go low, sometimes even go in becasue a student surprised them. They have the ABILITY to perform, but they lock up because they get SURPRISED. I have seen and heard about it happening (on occassion) at DZs all over the country.

I really think the point of this video is that students (or even D-licensed recurrency jumpers) can do some amazingly crazy things with no warnings, and you can't afford to be surprised and lock up.


(This post was edited by polarbear on Jun 17, 2011, 2:34 PM)


Deisel  (D 31661)

Jun 19, 2011, 8:40 PM
Post #94 of 162 (1235 views)
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Re: [polarbear] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

The debate is about responsibility as well. A coach is not responsible for pulling for a student. The AFFI is. This is the line in the sand drawn by the USPA. And any coach trying to pull for a student is outside their box and could potentially be negligent.
No one wants to watch someone bounce. But as a coach thats exactly what you are supposed to do if a student fails to save their own life. Once cleard for self supervision, the assumption is that the student can and will end their freefall without intervention. No coach should ever attempt to exceed their training limits.
D


Beachbum  (B License)

Jun 20, 2011, 11:04 AM
Post #95 of 162 (1097 views)
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Re: [Deisel] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

This brings up a point that is of interest to me since I am about to take a coach course (and I will be sure to ask about this scenario!). I know that a coach is not trained, nor supposed to, pull for someone. But if a coach is on a jump with someone who has obviously frozen up, is he/she required to back off and depend on an AAD to save their locked up student? If the coach DOES move in and pull for the student, would their rating be pulled?


jumpsalot-2  (D 33093)

Jun 20, 2011, 11:40 AM
Post #96 of 162 (1082 views)
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Re: [Beachbum] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This brings up a point that is of interest to me since I am about to take a coach course (and I will be sure to ask about this scenario!). I know that a coach is not trained, nor supposed to, pull for someone. But if a coach is on a jump with someone who has obviously frozen up, is he/she required to back off and depend on an AAD to save their locked up student? If the coach DOES move in and pull for the student, would their rating be pulled?
In reply to:
If you jumped as a coach and the other jumper hit the plane and got knocked out, wouldn't you try to chase them and deploy for them considering altitude.......coach or not ?


theonlyski  (D License)

Jun 20, 2011, 11:51 AM
Post #97 of 162 (1074 views)
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Re: [Beachbum] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This brings up a point that is of interest to me since I am about to take a coach course (and I will be sure to ask about this scenario!). I know that a coach is not trained, nor supposed to, pull for someone. But if a coach is on a jump with someone who has obviously frozen up, is he/she required to back off and depend on an AAD to save their locked up student? If the coach DOES move in and pull for the student, would their rating be pulled?

Book answer: You wave them off, they don't respond, you turn, burn and deploy, they're on their own.

Would you get your rating pulled if you dumped them out? I find it unlikely, however, that's up to the S&TA and BOD to talk about.


Real world: That's on you... I'll keep my opinion to myself (it's sure to piss off some people)


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Jun 20, 2011, 11:57 AM
Post #98 of 162 (1070 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Book answer: You wave them off, they don't respond, you turn, burn and deploy, they're on their own.

Hot tip to Beachbum for your coach course evaluation jumps - the chance of your "student" losing altitude awareness around the agreed-upon breakoff/pull time is near to 100%. Make sure you know what to do ... and do it. Smile


(This post was edited by NWFlyer on Jun 20, 2011, 11:57 AM)


Deisel  (D 31661)

Jun 20, 2011, 12:18 PM
Post #99 of 162 (1052 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

C'mon Ski! It never stopped you before Sly


theonlyski  (D License)

Jun 20, 2011, 12:20 PM
Post #100 of 162 (1049 views)
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Re: [Deisel] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
C'mon Ski! It never stopped you before Sly

You'd be surprised how often I keep my opinion to myself on here...

Don't feel like getting banned again, what would I do all day at work??Laugh


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