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Chasing your student into the ground!?!

 

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Zymurdoo  (D 16833)

Jun 10, 2011, 9:59 PM
Post #1 of 162 (4918 views)
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Chasing your student into the ground!?! Can't Post

http://www.facebook.com/...amp;oid=153654301897

This one won't be around long and I am surprised someone posted it. I am not affiliated with anyone in this video and have nothing to gain or lose by posting the link. That being said, this is the second video I have seen in a short time period in which someone chases their student until AAD fire.

Wow.

Edited to fix the clicky.


(This post was edited by Zymurdoo on Jun 10, 2011, 10:00 PM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 11, 2011, 5:18 AM
Post #2 of 162 (4813 views)
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Re: [Zymurdoo] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
What a great illustration of letting yourself get fucked over by life on a student skydive.

Am I the only one who noticed that the students leg straps were loose? I could see in between the straps and his legs as he was 'trying' to climb out?

Also, what sort of instructor gives the student a 'thumb up' while the student is both not in a good body position and look straight down (and the instructor is 20+ feet away)?

How about tapping the guy on top of the head to get his attention? Who taught that hand signal?

Speaking of those hand signals, who noticed the cuff of the instructor jumpsuit? Looks like baggy, heavy material for a student who appears to be a 'larger' fellow.

Of course, aside from losing the student, not being able to chase him worth a damn with the result being a pair of AAD fires, that jackass posts the video online and thinks it's cool that his Protrack reported a 300ft opening altitude.

How do these people become instructors and why do we let them stay instructors?


theonlyski  (D License)

Jun 11, 2011, 5:33 AM
Post #3 of 162 (4805 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Am I the only one who noticed that the students leg straps were loose? I could see in between the straps and his legs as he was 'trying' to climb out?

First thing I noticed is that the top of the jumpsuit is slightly unzipped and the snap that keeps the zipper up is unsnapped... bet THAT felt good.Pirate

Also looks like the instructor got directly over the student for a bit once he started losing him.

ETA: Damn, those leg straps are pretty freaking loose.


(This post was edited by theonlyski on Jun 11, 2011, 5:35 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 11, 2011, 5:46 AM
Post #4 of 162 (4793 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Just watching the attempt at a climb-out, I have trouble believing that student had progressed to solo exits. If that was the case, we can add the instructors poor management of the student near the door to the list of fuck ups. The guy was nowhere near the student, and the jump started off bad becuse the student was allowed to fail the exit and fall out of the plane uncontrolled.

Yes, the student recovered, but barely. If the instructor had grips on the exit, he could have thrown visible hand signals and corrected the body position issue long before releasing them. That guy was certainly not due a 'thumbs up' at any point, exit, freefall, pull time, or otherwise.

Of course, the guy might have progressed to solo exit, and the instructor would have been in the correct slot at that point (with regards to aircraft position, once he left the plane, the instructor was never in the right place again).

Quote:
Damn, those leg straps are pretty freaking loose.

Yeah. Wonder how it felt to be spinning on your back, falling too fast for your instructor to keep up and then have your AAD fire with those loose legstraps.

Quality instruction and customer service, who needs them?


dragon2  (D 101989)

Jun 11, 2011, 5:49 AM
Post #5 of 162 (4793 views)
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Re: [Zymurdoo] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

"Wow" doesn't begin to cover that...

What was this anyway, AFF or coach jump?

Either way, fail. And those riggers deserve a bottle!


Zymurdoo  (D 16833)

Jun 11, 2011, 5:55 AM
Post #6 of 162 (4789 views)
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Re: [dragon2] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

I have no idea what this was. A friend shared it from his Facebook page.

I have had the "How far would you chase your student?" conversation with almost every instructor I have met. My conclusions is if the jump is going that poorly and the student has gotten away from you you need to pull at or before your hard deck. My (untested) theory is that if you want the student to pull, seeing their instructor deploy should set the wheels in motion.


jimmytavino  (A 3914)

Jun 11, 2011, 6:18 AM
Post #7 of 162 (4771 views)
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Re: [Zymurdoo] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

WOW!!!!
talk about a good example of what NOT to do......

I'd say the trouble STARTED ..... IN the classroom.....

the first person who exited was also in a terrible position unless the intention was to Sit...

the guy in orange looked like an uncertain and scared Static Line student.. who could not even grab the strut!!!!! If one jumps at a cessna DZ hopefully they know HOW to climb out onto the step...Unsure

OK... sorry....Unsure i'll be a bit more kind.. since i'm guessing the guy is about as big a NEWBIE,, as you'll find...
( OR he's an oldster, who's doing a re-cert ) he DOES (finally) put his hand down near The PC handle.. but then simply Leaves it there !! Crazy... for a DAmn long time....
that sure couldn't have been that persons' ' first jump.... how in the world can you reach...... and then NOT pull.....???...

I'm not an instructor, though years ago worked with students Often AND successfully....
waaayyyy before such things as Tandem , AFF , and Coaching.....
( i have far to much to Lose, today, to risk working in any capacity in this sport, other than as a camera )

Can't believe that any decent AFF instructor, OR coach,,, could watch the guy laying there and NOT pulling,,,, and simply go along for the view !!!.... the only thing that triggered the Pull for the instructor, was seeing the reserve fire... and THEN the "experienced guy" pulls his MAIN.... instead of his reserve???Crazy Not very Tuned in, i'd say..... he really should have Known what the altitude was and if seeing an AAD fire triggers one to pull his main.. that is certainly begging for the 2 out...
Shouldn't the student be using an AAD which is set to Fire waaay above a grand?????
... awfully short canopy(s) ride for the instructor.... so i'm wondering about t he AAD the student was using.... could this have been a Recurrency Jump? and was "the student' using an AAD set for 750 feet...
But HEY!!!!! at least the instructor was wearing a camera!!!...Shocked right???Crazy

yikes..

Very interesting video...
glad that nobody got killed....

jt


(This post was edited by jimmytavino on Jun 11, 2011, 9:50 AM)


Zymurdoo  (D 16833)

Jun 11, 2011, 6:40 AM
Post #8 of 162 (4761 views)
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Re: [jimmytavino] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

(SPECULATION) When I first watched this video, I was thinking re currency jump of an older jumper. His rig is large but doesn't appear to be a student set-up. "Student" is wearing gloves when neither of the other jumpers on the load are. We don't usually give our students gloves unless the OAT suggests it. The person who indicated that they opened at 300' is not listed on Skydive New Mexico's staff page but does come up in a Google search as a skydive videographer.

Maybe the skydiver who posted this to Facebook will show up and make a clarifying comment.


Muffie  (A License)

Jun 11, 2011, 8:48 AM
Post #9 of 162 (4701 views)
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Re: [dragon2] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"Wow" doesn't begin to cover that...

What was this anyway, AFF or coach jump?

Either way, fail. And those riggers deserve a bottle!

From the comments on fb: "Matt went out as a coach on this jump and it appears to me that an AFF instructor would have been more correct."

If this was someone freshly off AFF and not someone who was doing a recurrency jump it also raises the question of who cleared them to jump solo.

I often see newer jumpers on dz.com voice frustration for having to repeat an AFF level and I think this video is a perfect example of why that can be justified. Better to repeat a level or two than be cleared to jump solo, go do a coach jump with someone, and throw them a curveball like this jump.

Also, a good video for anyone who thinks that they want to start doing coach jumps because then they get "free jumps." As someone said in another thread, you work hard for those jumps.


skycamefalling  (A 58345)

Jun 11, 2011, 8:54 AM
Post #10 of 162 (4696 views)
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Re: [Zymurdoo] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

All I can say is, Holy Shit. I thought for sure that student was going in. This video right here shows you exactly how precious a few seconds can be.


jimmytavino  (A 3914)

Jun 11, 2011, 10:03 AM
Post #11 of 162 (4671 views)
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Re: [jimmytavino] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

checking back here to read further comments, i realize that i made the assumption that the subject jumper had an AAD fire...based on the quick flash of the freebag bridle , as the canopy opened. i KNEW it was a reserve and just 'figured' it was an AAD that initiated it...

But,,,, It IS possible that the jumper pulled the reserve himself....can THAT be verified???

Do we even KNOW if his rig was AAD equipped... If he WAS doing a re currency jump, and depending on his "vintage" in the sport.. It IS possible that the rig wasn't AAD equipped...

for SURE though, the coaches was......cause i doubt that he pulled his main ANd his reserve himself..

they were in freefall for a long damn time. nearly a minute..Not likely that the cessna was above 12 grand??? is it??? gotta stay altitude aware..right??? another issue which is usually emphasized.... IN the classroom... re-cert. or otherwise.

jmy
A 3914
D 12122


PiLFy  (A License)

Jun 11, 2011, 1:35 PM
Post #12 of 162 (4591 views)
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Re: [Zymurdoo] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

Is there a better link for those of us who aren't on Facebook?


frontloop33

Jun 11, 2011, 3:37 PM
Post #13 of 162 (4545 views)
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Re: [PiLFy] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

I've watched the video several times.
And it is just scary.

1. A student(?) who is very insecure (you can see that, as he tries to grab the strud).
2. loose legstraps (as mentioned above).
3. He's somehow stable but never a "thumbs up".
4. As he tries to grab his hand deploy (at 1:10) he turns into a dive until his AAD fires(?) / reserve deploys at 1:24

--> That is 14 seconds of freefall, so that's about 700 m / 2200 ft (since i've been taught 170 ft/sec // 50 m/sec at terminal velocity)
Given that and a AAD firing altitude of ~350 m that means a waveoff altitude of about 1000 m / 3000 ft.

So he should be 1000 m AGL at 1:10 and quite far away of the instructor.

Question: Is it possible that the instructor can/could reach a student who is that far away as at 1:10 within less than 14 sec. Or is it impossible so that the instructor should have deployed his parachute right away!?


polarbear  (D 25673)

Jun 11, 2011, 4:06 PM
Post #14 of 162 (4532 views)
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Re: [Zymurdoo] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

I was on site when this event ocurred.

First off realize that the video is shot with a wide angle lens, which makes things look further away then they actually are.

The jumper was NOT a student, he was a D-licensed skydiver who had been out of the sport for eighteen years. This was his second jump back; he had made a recurrency jump the week before but had been a little wiggy (bad exit, not great freefall stability) so it was suggested he jump with a coach again.

I believe the dive plan was simple posied exit (unasisted; as this was recurrency he needed to display exit stability on his own), straight freefall maintaining heading control and altitude awareness, wave off, track, and deploy at the correct altitude.

When he rolled on his back at pull time, he became disoriented and made a conscious decision to do nothing further and wait for the AAD to fire. He landed under the reserve uneventfully.

The coach became focused on the jumper and lost altitude awareness, pulling his own main too late. His AAD fired his reserve and he landed with two out flying in a biplane.

After the event, the seriousness of the situation was discussed with the jumper and he decided on his own that he wasn't on top of things enough to return to the sport. He has not returned since this jump.

The coach, who is actually a very good skydiver with well over 1000 jumps and a couple years coaching experience, voluntarily gave up his rating. He was very shaken by the experience and does NOT think it's cool, as some of you have indicated. He actually did not jump for a few months after this incident. He posted the video because it is a valuable learning experience for those of us who jump with students.

It is very easy to Monday morning quarterback a situation like this. If you wish to learn something productive from this, it is that you MUST take care of yourself when dealing with students. When it's pull time, pull, period. I know a great many instructors who have had similar situations at some point in their careers. It can happen to you unless YOU prevent it.

Another lesson I'll add is that even though somebody might be a licensed skydiver with hundreds or thousands of jumps, if they have been out of the sport for a long time then you'd better be prepared for anything. Not only do people forget but they get older, which can change things dramatically. In this instance the jumper was in his sixtees, maybe seventies. Even though he had once been an experienced skydiver, he clearly was overwhelmed with the basic aspects of our sport when he tried to return.


(This post was edited by polarbear on Jun 11, 2011, 7:00 PM)


DaVinciflies

Jun 11, 2011, 4:15 PM
Post #15 of 162 (4520 views)
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Re: [polarbear] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for providing the facts. I am glad both jumpers are OK.

That was scary as f**k.


Zymurdoo  (D 16833)

Jun 11, 2011, 6:55 PM
Post #16 of 162 (4443 views)
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Re: [polarbear] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the followup on this one.

Edited to add it looked to me like the "student" reached for a rip cord (or his right lift web) as he went unstable.


(This post was edited by Zymurdoo on Jun 11, 2011, 6:57 PM)


polarbear  (D 25673)

Jun 11, 2011, 7:08 PM
Post #17 of 162 (4433 views)
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Re: [Zymurdoo] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

Based on what I see in the video and what I recall from the discussion afterwards, the jumper reached for his handle and could not find it. Instead of reach once, reach twice, go to your reserve, he only reached once and could not find his handle. He stayed in the pull position for several seconds, eventually dipping his shoulder and rolling on his back. He never made any attempt at pulling his reserve; as stated earlier he consciously chose to wait for the AAD.


(This post was edited by polarbear on Jun 11, 2011, 7:11 PM)


sinjin  (A 210530)

Jun 11, 2011, 8:24 PM
Post #18 of 162 (4385 views)
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Re: [polarbear] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks for the facts and the update. hope it is a lesson for anyone going for a rating.


polarbear  (D 25673)

Jun 11, 2011, 8:31 PM
Post #19 of 162 (4379 views)
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Re: [sinjin] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
hope it is a lesson for anyone going for a rating

That's exactly why the video was posted. I myself am a relatively new coach; even though I have nearly 3000 jumps I am still sometimes caught by surprise with the things that happen on instructional jumps.


kawisixer01  (C 38984)

Jun 11, 2011, 9:22 PM
Post #20 of 162 (4351 views)
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Re: [polarbear] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

video pulled down already. Unsure hate to have something like this up that people could learn from. Too risky to someone's pride or their feelings getting hurt by something someone might say.


JohnnyMarko

Jun 11, 2011, 9:24 PM
Post #21 of 162 (4347 views)
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Re: [kawisixer01] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

Not if you saved it before it got deleted


jumpsalot-2  (D 33093)

Jun 11, 2011, 9:49 PM
Post #22 of 162 (4339 views)
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Re: [JohnnyMarko] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

Put it on youtube so everyone can see it. Not everyone has, or wants, a facebook account.


crotalus01  (B 28932)

Jun 11, 2011, 9:50 PM
Post #23 of 162 (4337 views)
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Re: [polarbear] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

I will never ever understand someone consciously waiting on an AAD to save them...


JohnnyMarko

Jun 11, 2011, 9:53 PM
Post #24 of 162 (4333 views)
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Re: [jumpsalot-2] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Put it on youtube so everyone can see it. Not everyone has, or wants, a facebook account.

no


jumpsalot-2  (D 33093)

Jun 11, 2011, 9:59 PM
Post #25 of 162 (4331 views)
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Re: [JohnnyMarko] Chasing your student into the ground!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

After I contributed to your dating question.......all I get is "no"......Unsure


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