Forums: Skydiving: Instructors:
Hop and pops in the ISP

 


jonathan.newman  (D 30644)

Jun 2, 2011, 6:54 PM
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Hop and pops in the ISP Can't Post

This is a follow-on question to my previous post about the ISP. I am a TI and an AFFI. And, I hate seeing students sit around when clouds are at 6k or 8k.

Let's assume that I take a student on a successful Cat A and Cat B jump using the AFF method. Then I hand him off to an IAD/SL instructor who will (I presume) watch the student make two 10-second delay freefalls. In the AFF progression, the student would wait until Cat F to do two hop and pops.

Is there anything in the ISP that prevents me (the AFFI) from moving those hop and pops in front of Cat E? How about after Cat C, where they demonstrate a solo pull? What about right before Cat C? At what point am I entering IAD/SL territory for which I'm not rated?

I remember when I was going through the static line program that I had to do my last SL practice pull and first freefall on the same day. Would the student have to demonstrate a solo pull (Cat B AFF) and freefall hop and pop on the same day as well?

Again, this is all about what to do with AFF students when the clouds are too low for an AFF jump.

Comments are appreciated.

Jonathan


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 2, 2011, 7:23 PM
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Re: [jonathan.newman] Hop and pops in the ISP [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Again, this is all about what to do with AFF students when the clouds are too low for an AFF jump.

Do ground schooling for equipment and stuff.
Work on knowledge-based achievements.
Do A-license Progression Card line items.
Review and drill EPs.

I dunno. Stepping outside your approved training program may be problematic when trying explain it to a judge/jury if things go wrong.


Deisel  (D 31661)

Jun 2, 2011, 7:40 PM
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Re: [jonathan.newman] Hop and pops in the ISP [In reply to] Can't Post

I believe that the ISP says that you have to have 9K to do AFF. Dont have one handy to refrence. So I read that as until they are cleared for self supervision, hop & pops are a no-go.

On another note - what does SL have to do with AFF? Why would you need to hand a student over to a SLJM? Couldnt you simply take continue the AFF progression? Just asking - my only SL experience is on the military side. We dont do SL at the DZ I jump at.


theonlyski  (D License)

Jun 3, 2011, 3:58 AM
Post #4 of 11 (1413 views)
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Re: [jonathan.newman] Hop and pops in the ISP [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This is a follow-on question to my previous post about the ISP. I am a TI and an AFFI. And, I hate seeing students sit around when clouds are at 6k or 8k.

I know of a large DZ that's had talks of certifing some instructors as IAD, this way when there is low clouds, they can still get students up and not just sitting around.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 3, 2011, 5:02 AM
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Re: [jonathan.newman] Hop and pops in the ISP [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Let's assume that I take a student on a successful Cat A and Cat B jump using the AFF method. Then I hand him off to an IAD/SL instructor who will (I presume) watch the student make two 10-second delay freefalls.

What is it about making two harness-hold AFF jumps that makes you think a student is ready for a solo exit, freefall, and un-assisted pull from a much lower altitude?

By the time a S/Lstudent is making a 10-second delay, they have demonstated their ability to exit solo and stable on several jumps with the S/L hooked up, to include practice pulls on the last couple S/L jumps.

An AFF student with two jumps has never exited solo, been in freefall solo, or pulled un-assisted (for the purpose of this discussion, 'assisted' means with an instructor docked on their harness, not an instructor helping (or completely) pulling for them).

I don't know about you, but I watched many AFF students making their regularly scheduled hop n pops get very freaked out because of the lower exit altitude, and do some very odd things because of it. Put them in that same situation but with far fewer jumps and accomplishments under their belts, and who knows what would happen.

If you wanted to put them out with an actual S/L or an IAD, that would be one thing. They would still have the benefit of getting to jump, making a solo exit, and fly their canopy, but it would subtract the need for solo freefall and pull.


djmarvin  (D 22292)

Jun 3, 2011, 7:35 AM
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Re: [jonathan.newman] Hop and pops in the ISP [In reply to] Can't Post

Check the front section of each Category in the ISP to see the transition protocol for students going from one method to another.

From The 2011 SIM pg. 47
"AFF and tandem students who have completed Category B must
demonstrate a stable practice deployment on an IAD or static-line
jump before proceeding to a clear and pull."

Once they get to the hop and pop requirements as an AFF student they would be considered "former IAD or S/L students" and the hop and pop requirement would be covered (as long as they did hop and pops during their time as an IAD or S/L student)


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Jun 3, 2011, 10:14 AM
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Re: [jonathan.newman] Hop and pops in the ISP [In reply to] Can't Post

Has the student demonstrated a stable solo exit? Has the student demonstrated an unassisted recovery from an unstable position? Have they demonstrated a stable deployment unlinked from their instructor?
If so I see no problem; if not, then not.


Edited to add: Correction- they should have demonstrated the stable unassisted exit twice consecutively.


(This post was edited by Andrewwhyte on Jun 3, 2011, 10:15 AM)


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jun 3, 2011, 12:12 PM
Post #8 of 11 (1284 views)
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Re: [djmarvin] Hop and pops in the ISP [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Check the front section of each Category in the ISP to see the transition protocol for students going from one method to another.

exactly - moving from one method to the other(s) is covered


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jun 4, 2011, 8:18 AM
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Re: [jonathan.newman] Hop and pops in the ISP [In reply to] Can't Post

Good idea for your students, but this is my take on the transition, being a S/L IE and in the process of getting AFF rated for a different type of crossover program...
Even though both programs use the same catagory letters, there is not a direct crossover until cat F.
You can't advance them into a AFF catagory that they aren't qualified for and you don't have the proper rating to do IAD or S/L.
I would suggest that you get a IAD instructor rating, which shouldn't be too hard for you. You need to learn the different progression and exit techniques, but most of the teaching material is the same. I suggest IAD because you can still use the same equipment. S/L would require different or modified gear.
The ISP require a MINIMUM of 1 successful simulated deployment while exiting IAD during the crossover, but I would suggest 2 or 3, especially Cat C and below. This is a whole new game for your student. The climbout and exit are different, with the need for immediate stability and deployment. Plan on a significant amount of training for this crossover. Once the student has done the simulated deployments and a real hop-and-pop, they can then progess through longer delays.


Skydog73  (C License)

Jul 20, 2011, 1:36 PM
Post #10 of 11 (837 views)
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Re: [jonathan.newman] Hop and pops in the ISP [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah a hop n pop prior to solo status would be very problematic, and I think some one already mentioned probably a legal nightmare. I know pilots and packers don't like the regular static line jumps, but you could probably do it that way and focus on canopy drills, which to me are more important then free fall drills. just my 2 cents.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jul 20, 2011, 7:17 PM
Post #11 of 11 (805 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Hop and pops in the ISP [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Again, this is all about what to do with AFF students when the clouds are too low for an AFF jump.

Do ground schooling for equipment and stuff.
Work on knowledge-based achievements.
Do A-license Progression Card line items.
Review and drill EPs.

I'll say it again. GROUND TRAINING!
It's waaaaaaay too common that AFFIs focus entirely on in-air skills when in reality student training is so much more than that.

It's one of my pet peeves....DO THE GROUND TRAINING!


This thread seems to be an effort to do anything and everything to avoid ground training.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jul 20, 2011, 7:17 PM)



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