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Biomechanics

 

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Poll: Biomechanics
Yes, this was discussed in my USPA Coaching Course 8 / 44%
No, this was not discussed in my USPA Coaching Course 10 / 56%
18 total votes
 
Premier DSE  (D 29060)

May 18, 2011, 9:07 AM
Post #1 of 27 (2979 views)
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Biomechanics Can't Post

In my Coaching Course, one component is dedicated to Sport Biomechanics. We spend about an hour learning examples and exercises.

I've had a couple newly christened coaches visit for other training, and they've had no knowledge of biomechanics.

In your USPA Coach Course, did you receive training on biomechanics?
~Did you feel it valuable?
~Why?
~Why not?


JohnRich  (D License)

May 18, 2011, 10:21 AM
Post #2 of 27 (2891 views)
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Re: [DSE] Biomechanics [In reply to] Can't Post

Please define what "sport biomechanics" means.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

May 18, 2011, 11:03 AM
Post #3 of 27 (2868 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] Biomechanics [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Please define what "sport biomechanics" means.

Some reading material

Some viewing material

Biomechanics are nothing new (although this link is as much about machines as muscles).

Kino is a part of all sports training, whether we know it or not.
Forgive me for thinking the meaning of the word is self evident.


(This post was edited by DSE on May 18, 2011, 11:22 AM)


topdocker  (D 12018)

May 18, 2011, 11:53 AM
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Re: [DSE] Biomechanics [In reply to] Can't Post

DSE, I think what you are asking is if the coaches are taught to use mechanical advantage to keep control in the air/plane, rather than just pure brute force.

Yes, we covered and discussed it, but I don't think we spent an hour on it.

top


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

May 18, 2011, 12:35 PM
Post #5 of 27 (2820 views)
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Re: [topdocker] Biomechanics [In reply to] Can't Post

No, but that's another aspect.
The section where I teach basic biomechanics is about "if I do this with my elbow, it does that to my shoulder" or "If you do this with your head, it'll do that to your body" sort of thing. A basic understanding of body movement, describing body position, inertia, momentum, impulse, etc.

I know I'm not the only C/E teaching these concepts, just curious about how many coaches in the recent USPA program are getting this information.
Here are the basics minus the math, that are almost the same as what I teach in this module.


theonlyski  (D License)

May 18, 2011, 2:02 PM
Post #6 of 27 (2790 views)
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Re: [DSE] Biomechanics [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In your USPA Coach Course, did you receive training on biomechanics?
~Did you feel it valuable?
~Why?
~Why not?

Bio-what?Crazy

Nope, didn't get any training that I recall on it, if it's what I think you're talking about.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

May 20, 2011, 10:06 AM
Post #7 of 27 (2623 views)
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Re: [DSE] Biomechanics [In reply to] Can't Post

In Canada, most coaching and instructor courses are divided into theory, practical and technical modules.

Coaching courses taught by CSPA tend to focus on the technical aspects of skydiving, while bio-mechanics, nutrition, sports psychology, conflict resolution, long term development, etc. tend to be covered in theory course taught by the Coaching Association of Canada.


ufk22  (D 16168)

May 21, 2011, 8:22 AM
Post #8 of 27 (2587 views)
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Re: [DSE] Biomechanics [In reply to] Can't Post

Must have missed that in the USPA sylibus.
Seriously, can you define and explain exactly what you're teaching and it's perceived value to the candidate, rather than using the links.
I do teach coaches to watch student movement and train to NOT do what most people do reflexively (IE, altimeter checks, it's natural to turn your head and raise and turn your hand to make it easier to view)
I think I may know what you're refering to, but I guess I'd like to hear in your own words what you're teaching, how your teaching it, and why your teaching it.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

May 21, 2011, 10:44 AM
Post #9 of 27 (2581 views)
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Re: [ufk22] Biomechanics [In reply to] Can't Post

I teach (as do several other C/E's in this area) basic bio mechanics.
We teach it via using the mechanical concepts, have candidates observe the action in motion and define what the cause and effect of the action is, apply it to skydiving skillsets, and understand the benefits of observing and teaching armed with the knowledge.
We teach it, because it flattens the learning curve and helps break down the body position processes to parts in much the same way we break a dive flow into parts. Using the techniques in practice also improves/accelerates muscle memory.
I'm not interested in defending the practice; it works.
I'm merely curious as to who is and isn't receiving this training.
Quote:
train to NOT do what most people do reflexively

You train people to not do...?
I wanna be clear on your last comment;


ufk22  (D 16168)

May 21, 2011, 11:28 AM
Post #10 of 27 (2578 views)
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Re: [DSE] Biomechanics [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I teach (as do several other C/E's in this area) basic bio mechanics.
We teach it via using the mechanical concepts, have candidates observe the action in motion and define what the cause and effect of the action is, apply it to skydiving skillsets, and understand the benefits of observing and teaching armed with the knowledge.
We teach it, because it flattens the learning curve and helps break down the body position processes to parts in much the same way we break a dive flow into parts. Using the techniques in practice also improves/accelerates muscle memory.
I'm not interested in defending the practice; it works.
I'm merely curious as to who is and isn't receiving this training.
Quote:
train to NOT do what most people do reflexively

You train people to not do...?
I wanna be clear on your last comment.
May be what you're doing, but I'm still not real clear on this.
What I was talking about is breaking the sort of combined motion that has become a learned refles, or in some cases instinct, for most people.
Examples;
As stated before, when most people look at their hand or wrist (looking at a wristwatch, for example), they don't just turn their head or look with their eyes, they also move their entire left arm to an a-symetrical position, twist their wrist and turn their head. During a skydive, doing all this creates stability issues and can cause turns.
For deployment, most people, if reaching for a billfold in their back pocket, twist at the waist and bring their opposing shoulder forward as they reach back.
On landing, most people will naturally spread their feet apart for stability and if falling down will extend a hand/arm to try to catch themselves.
These are the reflexive habits that must be unlearned. I don't teach the NOT, just explain to the candidates why people do these things. When working with student, I also explain why these are natural things for people to do, explain why they are not the right things to do in skydiving, and then teach them what/how to do it right. They need to know that one part of their brain may well be fighting with another part of their brain.
If you're talking about basic body flight and how the different parts of the body can effect what we do in freefall, yes, I teach my candidates about that, both as a teaching tool and as an observational too.
Never thought to give it such an impressive sounding title.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

May 22, 2011, 2:38 PM
Post #11 of 27 (2543 views)
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Re: [ufk22] Biomechanics [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
As stated before, when most people look at their hand or wrist (looking at a wristwatch, for example), they don't just turn their head or look with their eyes, they also move their entire left arm to an a-symetrical position, twist their wrist and turn their head. During a skydive, doing all this creates stability issues and can cause turns.
For deployment, most people, if reaching for a billfold in their back pocket, twist at the waist and bring their opposing shoulder forward as they reach back.

We're talking about a different subject.
As far as the title...not my title. It's how it is commonly referred to both in the USPA and athletic environment. It is kinda fancy sounding though.Smile
When did you last attend an IERC? This has been discussed at both IERC's I've been to in the past two years.


(This post was edited by DSE on May 22, 2011, 2:39 PM)


pchapman  (D 1014)

May 22, 2011, 3:22 PM
Post #12 of 27 (2533 views)
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Re: [DSE] Biomechanics [In reply to] Can't Post

So far it doesn't look like there's much understanding of what is meant by biomechanics.

In a way, everyone learns and teaches biomechanics. Legs tucked up and arms out = backsliding due to the location of drag vs. center of mass. Or a little more advanced idea is that spreading the legs more makes it harder to arch at the hips.

That may be biomechanics, but just isolated facts applicable to skydiving, not some broad understanding of how to apply sport biomechanics to skydiving.

In my CSPA coaching course a decade plus back, we learned things like breaking down sports movements into sections by time and role (eg, things like initiation, force production, follow through) or by body part. Those sorts of things should qualify as applying biomechanics principles to the sport.

It would be interesting to hear -- maybe after you collect more responses -- what you see as useful biomechanics for skydiving, or what kind of things you learned from the USPA on biomechanics.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

May 22, 2011, 4:32 PM
Post #13 of 27 (2524 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Biomechanics [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
In my CSPA coaching course a decade plus back, we learned things like breaking down sports movements into sections by time and role (eg, things like initiation, force production, follow through) or by body part.

Sounds like we're on the same page.


JohnRich  (D License)

May 23, 2011, 7:11 AM
Post #14 of 27 (2490 views)
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Re: Biomechanics [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
In my CSPA coaching course a decade plus back, we learned things like breaking down sports movements into sections by time and role (eg, things like initiation, force production, follow through) or by body part.

Sounds like we're on the same page.

Just because they don't call it "biomechanics", doesn't mean those principles aren't being taught.


(This post was edited by JohnRich on May 23, 2011, 7:11 AM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

May 23, 2011, 8:16 AM
Post #15 of 27 (2480 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] Biomechanics [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Just because they don't call it "biomechanics", doesn't mean those principles aren't being taught.

No matter what the name, a discourse on observations of application/result of force either was or wasn't part of your coach course, which is the original post. So far, it would seem at least some C/E's aren't teaching any component of this topic, which was the point of the OP.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

May 23, 2011, 9:04 AM
Post #16 of 27 (2468 views)
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Re: [DSE] Biomechanics [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
No, but that's another aspect.
The section where I teach basic biomechanics is about "if I do this with my elbow, it does that to my shoulder" or .

How about this "you can't really give an effective arch signal to someone with really wide legs - wide legs will result in inability to arch very far due to bone on bone impingment. Give knees together first before the arch signal"

or in weight lifting - "Pouring (thumbs down) during shoulder flies restricts the full stroke of the fly. (again, impingment of the shoulder joint"

not taught directly, but discussed frequently between coachs and instructors, but these concepts for skydiving coaching is important to avoid jumpers from injuring themselves, and that whole "can't arch with wide legs things" I think is huge for AFF and advance RW teaching.


SStewart  (D 10405)

May 26, 2011, 1:18 AM
Post #17 of 27 (2381 views)
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Re: [DSE] Biomechanics [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
No, but that's another aspect.
The section where I teach basic biomechanics is about "if I do this with my elbow, it does that to my shoulder" or "If you do this with your head, it'll do that to your body" sort of thing. A basic understanding of body movement, describing body position, inertia, momentum, impulse, etc.

You mean like if you crank a toggle close to the ground you will hit the dirt and break your pelvis?

That sort of thing?


mccordia  (D 94775)

May 26, 2011, 1:39 AM
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Re: [SStewart] Biomechanics [In reply to] Can't Post

Whatever personal grudge you have, little of what you wrote above adds anything valuable to the discussion.....

its the kind of lessons in life that some teach with vigor, as they experienced the results of bad training or a poor or unfortunate decission themselves...

Its easy to sit in a chair and judge from the safe anonymous position in front of a keyboard. It takes a bigger man to stand up, show your mistakes and see if they can be used to improve teaching and instruction in general.


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

May 26, 2011, 10:52 PM
Post #19 of 27 (2322 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Biomechanics [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In Canada, most coaching and instructor courses are divided into theory, practical and technical modules.

Coaching courses taught by CSPA tend to focus on the technical aspects of skydiving, while bio-mechanics, nutrition, sports psychology, conflict resolution, long term development, etc. tend to be covered in theory course taught by the Coaching Association of Canada.

oaching courses taught by CSPA tend to focus on the technical aspects of skydiving, while bio-mechanics, nutrition, sports psychology, conflict resolution, long term development, etc. tend to be covered in theory course taught by the Coaching Association of Canada.
lol Been a while since you took a course, eh Rob. CSPA course facilitators have been teaching the theoretical and technical aspects of the course in a blended session for several years now. We were the first sport to do so under the CAC.
The biomechanics section is referred to as the "principles of movement" as discussed by Peter above.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

May 27, 2011, 8:25 AM
Post #20 of 27 (2278 views)
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Re: [Andrewwhyte] Biomechanics [In reply to] Can't Post

Take a close look Andrew.
Do you see the grey hair on my head?
Do you see the grey hair in my beard?
Do you see all the wrinkles around my eyes?

Do you think that maybe - just maybe - I earned a stack of CSPA ratings before the last major revision of CSPA Coaching Courses?

Sure I may have sat-in or "audited" a few CSPA courses since the 1980s, but it all blurs together, so that I cannot remember exactly what was taught in each - distinct - course.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

May 27, 2011, 9:49 AM
Post #21 of 27 (2270 views)
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Re: [SStewart] Biomechanics [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

You mean like if you crank a toggle close to the ground you will hit the dirt and break your pelvis?

That sort of thing?

Actually Scott, we do discuss my incident (although it wasn't a "cranked toggle"), and how it has had a challenging effect on my life and changed up my views on safety/training. I'm not ashamed of my injury, if that's what you're poking after.

I probably should add some dialog that even folkswith 30 years and 3000 jumps can't successfully complete an AFFI course.Wink
Remind me to not donate again to your personal charity next time you ask skydivers for money, m'kay? Unsure

Back to point:
Andrew and Rob's comments helped me chase down this link which contains much of the same information, minus the skydiving relationship. Very nicely done. I'd very much like to see how the CSPA presents this topic.


MakeItHappen

May 31, 2011, 9:45 AM
Post #22 of 27 (2197 views)
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Re: [DSE] Biomechanics [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In my Coaching Course, one component is dedicated to Sport Biomechanics. We spend about an hour learning examples and exercises.

I've had a couple newly christened coaches visit for other training, and they've had no knowledge of biomechanics.

In your USPA Coach Course, did you receive training on biomechanics?
~Did you feel it valuable?
~Why?
~Why not?

I *think* what you are seeing is a difference in CD/now IE who have or not have taken the AIC/ now IEC.
The section on biomechanics was introduced into the USPA doctrine when Rob Laidlaw was developing the AIC, c2004.

USPA has mandated that all CDs/IEs need to take the IEC by a certain date. (I think that date is the end of this year. Don't quote me on that cuz I'd have to go look it up.)

The gist of understanding biomechanics is to explain why small finger motions are suitable for typing and getting your whole body into the motion is suitable for a free throw from half court and why the converse (small finger motion for the half court free throw or using your entire body to type are inappropriate to get the job done.)

.


SStewart  (D 10405)

May 31, 2011, 11:44 PM
Post #23 of 27 (2156 views)
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Re: [DSE] Biomechanics [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Actually Scott, we do discuss my incident (although it wasn't a "cranked toggle"), and how it has had a challenging effect on my life and changed up my views on safety/training. I'm not ashamed of my injury, if that's what you're poking after.

I probably should add some dialog that even folkswith 30 years and 3000 jumps can't successfully complete an AFFI course.Wink
Remind me to not donate again to your personal charity next time you ask skydivers for money, m'kay? Unsure

Wow, Kinda sensitive aren't you Princess?
I appreciate the cash donation you made and I said so in my private message to you. As far as the VASST software package you pledged to donate it was never received.

You are the only sponsor that did not follow through with your promise. No big deal I kinda expected that. We did the jumps and raised a nice chunk of change for charity.

And yes I did not finish the AFFI course, Tough to do with a dislocated shoulder. I was in surgery the same week you were. Your injuries were much more severe. I watched you bounce, I am amazed you survived.

Back to the thread, Skydiving was going on before the coach rating was invented.


(This post was edited by SStewart on May 31, 2011, 11:58 PM)


SStewart  (D 10405)

Jun 1, 2011, 10:54 AM
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Re: [SStewart] Biomechanics [In reply to] Can't Post

I refunded your money Doug, since your donation already went to charity I will cover it.

I certainly don't want you to feel put out.

Good luck with that bio-mechanical thing.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jun 1, 2011, 3:35 PM
Post #25 of 27 (2106 views)
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Re: [SStewart] Biomechanics [In reply to] Can't Post

Whatever eases your conscience.

"New ways" of doing things may not always be best, but at least discovery is occurring. Methods march on.

Some folks (yourself included) made fun of my experiments with wingsuits and water, too. Yet there are at least two wingsuiters that found themselves very happy for having a better understanding of water.
Biomechanics, IMO, are a similar venture; a means of helping people grow into the sport more efficiently with better retention.
Apparently the Canadians and other parachuting organizations see the benefit/value as well. The path Rob Laidlaw put forth is based on training principles that go beyond sports and well into industrial training, and it seems that skydiving can benefit from this. It's quite obvious with my wingsuiting and coaching students.


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