Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
Is it time to seperate the discipline of swooping?

 

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mirage62  (C 15580)

May 13, 2011, 2:49 PM
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Is it time to seperate the discipline of swooping? Can't Post

I’ve been posting the below on other forums but it dawn on me that this might be the place to get the feed back and understanding I am after. Let me make this clear:

1. I am NOT in favor nor would I support banning swooping. Period.
2. Education for all is part of the solution

The mixing of HP canopies and larger slower canopies is not working. The incidents of the last few years seem to bare that out. Separate landing area’s are a great idea but we are still running into one another. Very experienced people to.

So why can’t we separated the activities by swoopers getting out low or having the entire plane to their discipline?

I realize that this would limit HP pilots free fall time. It would require more work in the HP community. For the truly serious HP pilot who is training I don’t think this would prove to be such and issue. To me the largest issue isn’t the very serious swooper but perhaps the person that wants it all. It isn’t “easy” but I believe we have reached a point where something has to change.

So my complete solution is:

If you want to do anything more than a standard 90 degree pattern (down wind, base, final) you get out on a low pass or you have the entire plane. The HP pilot who wish to go to attitude would be allowed to and would fly the standard pattern. (Education of others not to be S turning in the pattern would be important)

I’m really hoping to get a education as to why this isn’t practical. The only problem I see with it is that it does take away the “right” for the HP pilot who is going to swoop to go to altitude with others of a different discipline.

Thanks


morris

May 13, 2011, 3:57 PM
Post #2 of 36 (2180 views)
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Re: [mirage62] Is it time to seperate the discipline of swooping? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
To me the largest issue isn’t the very serious swooper but perhaps the person that wants it all.

Of course it is.
But I wouldn´t call it the largest issue but the only issue.
If it´s done the way you´re suggesting, HP-stuff usually isn´t causing any safety-problems at all.

On the other hand this would take away training opportunities from the majority of jumpers, they wouldn´t get any better and they wouldn´t be very current in HP-landings. So if they would still be doing ´em once in a while (doing hop´n´pops) they would take a far greater risk (to hurt themselves, but at least not endangering others).
The number of jumpers who are interested and willing to do large numbers of hop´n´pops from the beginning of their jumpingcareers on, is for sure not a large one.
Usually people are working their way up over many years till they finally come to the point where they realise that hop´n´pops are the way to go to get any better (and that freefall is highly overrated).

As it is many times very difficult if not impossible to be the first down or have everyone else on the ground before you´re initiating your turn, the idea to have not vertical but horizontal separation between regular and fast canopies still makes sense to me.
It doesn´t even take two separate but just one landing area of reasonable seize to do this.
In addition to all the other "rules" like slower and lower have the right of way, if in doubt don´t, blablabla, the HP-pilot just needs to be willing to walk all the way back from the other end of the landingarea to the hangar, just be doing the opposite of swooping the beerline.
So the problem might not be the one who wants it all but the one who wants it all AND is not willing to run back to the boardingarea to catch his back-to-back load?


AggieDave  (D License)

May 13, 2011, 4:35 PM
Post #3 of 36 (2165 views)
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Re: [morris] Is it time to seperate the discipline of swooping? [In reply to] Can't Post

In all the competitive swooping and competitive swooping practice I've been privileged enough to partake in (including with the legendary Morris), we've had a landing order and we stick with it.

That same landing order exists out in the "wild" of a normal skydiving world, but it isn't talked about and isn't even typically discussed. Something I teach my canopy coaching students is that we're all in a "school of fish" and we have to recognize and attempt to fit in where we should fit in with that school.

With the majority of canopies being jumped at any given DZ on any given day, it is easier to slow down than to speed safely. So I teach my students to look and evaluate who is on their load with them to give themselves a rough idea of where they fit into the load. They also look to see if there are any late groups (jumpers behind them in the exit order) that have a possibility of overtaking them.

After opening and a control-ability check, the next step is to point to their holding area for the pattern, while checking the airspace to make sure they are in the right place in the school of fish. If there are canopies that will probably over take them, then a little brakes and let them go. Attempting to spiral to "give room" will only cause congestion at lower altitudes or even in the pattern.

With that said, canopy pilots with fast canopies have to fly with due diligence for the safety of themselves and the safety of the other jumpers in the air with them. That also includes hanging in brakes to let other canopy traffic enter the pattern, abandoning a swoop attempt for that jump and even landing away from the beer line to give safe passage.

That doesn't matter if it is the first jump of the day or the sunset hop-n-swoop staff load. It is better to give safe passage, land away and have an opportunity to set the safety standard by example!


trigger  (D 101390)

May 14, 2011, 2:40 AM
Post #4 of 36 (2065 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Is it time to seperate the discipline of swooping? [In reply to] Can't Post

we've had a landing order and we stick with it.

At DZ's like the one where i jump, nearly every load is mixed and exit order is freefly,flat,(larger to smaller groups)followed by tandems.
The landing area isn't really large enough (imo) to accomodate two seperate landing areas but in our case a enforced/displined landing order would be a great idea.

Another problem we have (side note) is dirty high puller vs dirty low puller scenarios which predictably has an effect on landing order.


mirage62  (C 15580)

May 14, 2011, 5:49 AM
Post #5 of 36 (2038 views)
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Re: [trigger] Is it time to seperate the discipline of swooping? [In reply to] Can't Post

Is your dz a large one? The FF first vrs the r.w. first is a different question but regardless if it is a larger dz, than your saying you achieve the results through communication only?


P-dro

May 14, 2011, 6:57 AM
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Re: [trigger] Is it time to seperate the discipline of swooping? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
At DZ's like the one where i jump, nearly every load is mixed and exit order is freefly,flat,(larger to smaller groups)followed by tandems.
Changing your exit order to flat,freelfy and tandem would be a nice bonus too.


FB1609  (C 1409)

May 14, 2011, 11:11 AM
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Re: [P-dro] Is it time to seperate the discipline of swooping? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd agree with the concept but still. most RW or FFers want to swoop after their jump too, so I still think separate landing area should be enough if people are extremely cautious, and dangerous fliers called out. Still, I could see a non swooper not being too happy with that these days, and rightfully so.

It may come to this I guess.


(This post was edited by FB1609 on May 14, 2011, 11:13 AM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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May 14, 2011, 5:33 PM
Post #8 of 36 (1905 views)
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Re: [morris] Is it time to seperate the discipline of swooping? [In reply to] Can't Post

>On the other hand this would take away training opportunities from the
>majority of jumpers, they wouldn´t get any better and they wouldn´t be
>very current in HP-landings. So if they would still be doing ´em once in a
>while (doing hop´n´pops) they would take a far greater risk (to hurt
>themselves, but at least not endangering others).

This is true. It would show good judgment for these people to not swoop, then. Surely if even experienced, current swoopers are colliding with people under canopy, people who need "training opportunities" have absolutely no place swooping on normal loads.

OTOH, if these people want to dedicate the time and effort to get those training opportunities, then great - they're showing the dedication and drive needed to be able to swoop safely, and I'd support them 100% in that effort.

I think we're past the point where we can consider swooping to be a fun thing you can tack on to the bottom of a skydive. We used to do CRW after bigways - but discovered it's just not safe enough to do with the kind of traffic you see after bigways. Swooping has to be a discipline that is learned on the ground, practiced in the air and refined over a lot of jumps. We need to be current, as we do with every other discipline in skydiving. And we need to dedicate the time and attention to doing it safely, rather than tacking it on to the end of another jump as an afterthought.


mirage62  (C 15580)

May 14, 2011, 8:53 PM
Post #9 of 36 (1879 views)
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Re: [billvon] Is it time to seperate the discipline of swooping? [In reply to] Can't Post

+1

Whats do the people who regularly read this forum have to say to this?


stayhigh  (F 111)

May 14, 2011, 9:17 PM
Post #10 of 36 (1872 views)
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Re: [mirage62] Is it time to seperate the discipline of swooping? [In reply to] Can't Post

What about high pullers???
Im not gonna spend 20 dollar plus for less than a min canopy ride.


trigger  (D 101390)

May 15, 2011, 12:01 AM
Post #11 of 36 (1853 views)
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Re: [mirage62] Is it time to seperate the discipline of swooping? [In reply to] Can't Post

Wouldn't call the dz where i jump large and the lz isn't big enough imo for a separate hp landing area.
The exit order is what it is.
So yes, results by communication prior to boarding.
Not the ideal solution i know. Simply trying to point out the impractabilities (is that awordCrazy) of separate landing areas where space is of a premium.


Pendragon  (D 104102)

May 15, 2011, 5:38 AM
Post #12 of 36 (1831 views)
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Re: [P-dro] Is it time to seperate the discipline of swooping? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Changing your exit order to flat,freelfy and tandem would be a nice bonus too.

Possibly going off topic, but why do you say that? This way provides better vertical separation, a greater likelihood of landing order following exit order (thereby reducing the potential for conflict under canopy), and flat fliers can easily leave a gap (which usually happens in the context of most 4-way teams taking a little extra time setting up in the door) to account for their greater freefall drift.


mirage62  (C 15580)

May 15, 2011, 6:54 AM
Post #13 of 36 (1817 views)
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Re: [Pendragon] Is it time to seperate the discipline of swooping? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the replies. It seems though that there aren't a lot of thoughts that relate to my basic question. I would really like more idea's but as it stands it seems like this is a good idea but one that people won't get behind PERHAPS because it raises swooping to its on sport.

Bill said it best and I may still some of it for my sig line:

Quote:
I think we're past the point where we can consider swooping to be a fun thing you can tack on to the bottom of a skydive. We used to do CRW after bigways - but discovered it's just not safe enough to do with the kind of traffic you see after bigways. Swooping has to be a discipline that is learned on the ground, practiced in the air and refined over a lot of jumps. We need to be current, as we do with every other discipline in skydiving. And we need to dedicate the time and attention to doing it safely, rather than tacking it on to the end of another jump as an afterthought.

It saddens me to think that after 4 deaths recently, many others in the past. The fact that the stats have been beat to death....over 700 post...nothing will change. To me as much as I hate it, this is the time for USPA to step in. I generally don't favor that kind of thing, but we as a group are not doing anything.

Peer preassure ("pull the reserve, punch them in the nose") isn't working. Perhaps we have become to PC for that.

For anyone that I have offended these last few weeks please accept my apology.


danielcroft  (D 31103)

May 15, 2011, 5:28 PM
Post #14 of 36 (1751 views)
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Re: [mirage62] Is it time to seperate the discipline of swooping? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Peer preassure ("pull the reserve, punch them in the nose") isn't working. Perhaps we have become to PC for that.
My experience is that peer pressure isn't even being used. Especially when you hear that certain people "have a pass" at some dropzones and in almost every instance of a canopy collision involving a swooper, it's not admitted but clear from the arguments, discussions and incident reports that in fact, people aren't using separate landing areas. One of the reasons I get frustrated with people constantly banging the same drum. "It isn't working now" - I'd counter with "that's because we're not trying".

As for separate discipline - the problem you have there is that you're going to be asking many of the people who aren't quite professional to give up one for the other. So of course you're going to get push back from people. It's not as though someone magically becomes a pro swooper. We all need to start somewhere so, in a world where someone has to change dropzones in order to swoop, they're giving up their friends and the ability to fly with certain people. I personally think, if swooping were called a separate discipline with separate DZs, you'd basically cut dropzones and dropzone communities in half. You'd find a lot of people would just move the the swoop dropzone to jump with the people who were there.

Effectively what you're suggesting is that the DZO chooses to allow swooping or not, we kinda have that already.


mirage62  (C 15580)

May 15, 2011, 6:50 PM
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Re: [danielcroft] Is it time to seperate the discipline of swooping? [In reply to] Can't Post

No, I'm not. I'm not suggesting that we cut anything in half. I'm suggesting that the time has come to say PICK what you are doing on THIS load. You want to swoop you get out early - or do a full swoop load. If you want to practise ff,rw,crw you do that on the appropiate load.

You just can't do both on the same laod.


Halfpastniner  (D 30747)

May 15, 2011, 7:24 PM
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Re: [mirage62] Is it time to seperate the discipline of swooping? [In reply to] Can't Post

So what happens if half the load wants to swoop and half the load doesnt? Does the plane sit?

Or how about if more than 50 percent of load wants to swoop? Do the non swoopers agree to sit on the ground until they can fill more than half the plane? After all, its in the name of safety right?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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May 15, 2011, 7:54 PM
Post #17 of 36 (1715 views)
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Re: [Halfpastniner] Is it time to seperate the discipline of swooping? [In reply to] Can't Post

>So what happens if half the load wants to swoop and half the load doesnt?

Let the swoopers out low, take the rest high. The important thing is ensuring the two are not in the same air at the same time.


mirage62  (C 15580)

May 16, 2011, 2:50 AM
Post #18 of 36 (1691 views)
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Re: [Halfpastniner] Is it time to seperate the discipline of swooping? [In reply to] Can't Post

Good question. Bill's reply is correct though. And Good point. You are also correct it is in the name of safety.


danielcroft  (D 31103)

May 16, 2011, 9:00 PM
Post #19 of 36 (1602 views)
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Re: [mirage62] Is it time to seperate the discipline of swooping? [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh, sorry for the misunderstanding.

Ok, I guess I can see that working. Given the instances of swooper collisions, would you expect this to actually bring the numbers of injured/killed down all that much?


buff  (D 30567)

May 17, 2011, 12:06 AM
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Re: [billvon] Is it time to seperate the discipline of swooping? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just two weeks ago, I got pressure to go up and do a four-way when I was getting out low to swoop. Said no, I'm swooping. Couple of thousand jump said, you can go with us and turn points and then swoop.

No go. I got out low and they did a three-way.


Fast  (D 28237)

May 17, 2011, 7:54 AM
Post #21 of 36 (1536 views)
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Re: [billvon] Is it time to seperate the discipline of swooping? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...
Let the swoopers out low, take the rest high...

A lot of you jump at dropzones that can still fly the plane like this. Some of us don't have that luxury. If the people at my DZ who want to swoop only did hop and pops I would be up shit creek with a plane that sits on the ground. Same can be said if my non-swoopers didn't want to be on the loads with swoopers. At the end of the day, seperating them is gonna piss someone off, how exactly do we decide which group gets fucked.


DocPop  (C License)

May 17, 2011, 8:21 AM
Post #22 of 36 (1528 views)
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Re: [Fast] Is it time to seperate the discipline of swooping? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
...
Let the swoopers out low, take the rest high...

A lot of you jump at dropzones that can still fly the plane like this. Some of us don't have that luxury. If the people at my DZ who want to swoop only did hop and pops I would be up shit creek with a plane that sits on the ground. Same can be said if my non-swoopers didn't want to be on the loads with swoopers. At the end of the day, seperating them is gonna piss someone off, how exactly do we decide which group gets fucked.

My DZ does not like to do low passes for swoopers so I go all the way up and pull at 12k, 8k, 6k (depends on weather/temperature etc) or whatever to allow everyone else on the load to land. If there are others on the load who want to swoop, we might pull high and do some canopy flocking before creating vertical separation for landing after the main group.


LetsGoOutside  (D License)

May 17, 2011, 10:08 AM
Post #23 of 36 (1514 views)
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Re: [mirage62] Is it time to seperate the discipline of swooping? [In reply to] Can't Post

The old saying... plan the dive, dive the plan. Plan your dive from exit to landing, not exit to opening. That should reveal to you what you're comfortable with in traffic.

I don't know if I 100% agree with making this an enforced rule, but I believe it's something we should consider as individuals. Maybe 50% of my jumps are high pulls so I can spend quality time with my canopy, while providing a decent buffer against traffic to get a quality swoop. H+Ps when possible, as well.

Outside that, I'm resigned to go with the flow. I aim for the HP area, but won't go out of my way to get there. If it's too busy, just follow the pattern and it's a 90° or straight in. Otherwise, the swoop is a bonus.


mirage62  (C 15580)

May 17, 2011, 1:34 PM
Post #24 of 36 (1490 views)
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Re: [Fast] Is it time to seperate the discipline of swooping? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
At the end of the day, seperating them is gonna piss someone off, how exactly do we decide which group gets fucked.

I can see that happening at a smaller dz. Say 12 people are jumping 6 swoop 6 don't. That small of a dz...you take all 12 to altitude and they forget swooping Tongue

JOKING

If the dz won't allow a low load of the 6 swoopers and then go high you got me.

But you SCREW everyone when you mix the two.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

May 17, 2011, 1:50 PM
Post #25 of 36 (1488 views)
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Re: [mirage62] Is it time to seperate the discipline of swooping? [In reply to] Can't Post

This whole thing is BS.

How come that a load of 6, 10, 12, 15 or 18 can live without conflicts with a separate HP landing area?

There are place were they manage not to kill each other even with an Otter load.

Than what makes the difference? Loads, jumpers, WLs of jumpers and disciplines are mixed up everywhere.


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