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Got "talked to" this weekend

 

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popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 11, 2011, 10:43 PM
Post #51 of 127 (1512 views)
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Re: [BrianM] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
If I were the DZO...
<snip>
c) reserve repack
<snip>
b) reserve repack

I hope you wouldn't complain if that jumper decided to retaliate by messing with your student gear/rental gear/tandem gear/jump plane in order to cause you the same amount of inconvenience and expense as you caused him. After all, you are the one who decided that messing with other people's property was a good way to solve a problem. Crazy

Sorry, but what you are advocating is completely inappropriate, both ethically and legally.


And I hope you are not the bozo that would have to be taken that far trying to get the message through to you.

I hope you are not the immature bozo who feels the need to "retaliate" inappropriately, either ethically and/or legally.

If you ARE the bozo doing stupid shit in the sky needlessly endangering others then you get only two choices:
1) Heed the message
2) Ignore the message.

You knew what was coming and you can take it or leave it.

You don't get to choose how the message is presented to you. It may be that your need to be coddled and have the message presented to you on a silver platter with a silver spoon and a soft pat on the head is taken into consideration when the message is presented or it may not. It's not your choice to make.

If you are one of those with the "entitlement generation" attitude who choose to ignore the message because you didn't like the presentation, then, please, take up another sport where you'll be less danger to others. Either that or SIUCC and take the consequences like a man.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on May 11, 2011, 10:44 PM)


lanceav8r  (D 13892)

May 11, 2011, 11:01 PM
Post #52 of 127 (1507 views)
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Re: [Bolas] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

Try and touch any of my handles!

You can teach the guy what he did wrong, you can try and mentor him and your DZO or Safety Officer may even have to ground him if he doesn't respond. But if you touch his handles...well that actually could be a really good way to get your ass kicked. Tampering with someones gear is no small issue.

Grow up and handle issues like this professionally or find another sport. Maybe surfing or something. That sport likes to handle disagreements this way.

In reply to:
In reply to:
Or you just have the DZO or S&TA ground them.

No touchy touchy the handlesWink

I agree. However if one insists on pulling a handle on a rig, pull the cutaway and then don't give it back until the grounding is over or ship it to where they live if the grounding is permanent.

This gives them the option of unpacking and rehooking up their main or paying someone to do it versus making them pay to get their reserve repacked.


BrianM  (D 661)

May 11, 2011, 11:08 PM
Post #53 of 127 (1506 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I hope you are not the immature bozo who feels the need to "retaliate" inappropriately, either ethically and/or legally.

I am not. You, by your own admission, are.

So you hope that I'm not the kind of person who would do to you what you would do to me. Nice double standard. Do as I say and not as I do?

Someone who retaliates in kind is doing exactly the same thing that you just did to them. If it's ok for you to do it, it's ok for them to do it. If they are a bozo acting inappropriately/unethically/illegally, then you are a bozo acting inappropriately/unethically/illegally. You can't have it both ways.

Nothing good will come from fucking with other people's property, but there are a number of ways that it could turn into a very bad situation. Why instigate something like that?

In reply to:
You don't get to choose how the message is presented to you.

What's good for the goose...


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 11, 2011, 11:26 PM
Post #54 of 127 (1498 views)
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Re: [BrianM] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

You knew the consequences beforehand.

You don't agree with that and want to whine and cry when it happens, so be it.

Some of us can take what's coming like a man, some need to whine and cry...and retaliate by fighting like any good middle-schooler would.

It's a reality of life that there's some of one and some of the other.

Were I a DZO, I'd weed the whiners and criers out early. And no it's not goose/gander. I would venture to say that few DZOs, and certainly not me, have the inclination to put up with that kind drama. Here's the address of a different DZ. Thanks for stopping by.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on May 11, 2011, 11:29 PM)


BrianM  (D 661)

May 11, 2011, 11:50 PM
Post #55 of 127 (1490 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
YouOur hypothetical jumper knew the consequences beforehand.

FIFY.

Really? Our hypothetical jumper knew the owner of the business that he was giving his money to either doesn't understand law or ethics, or doesn't care for them? Perhaps he didn't know.

Our hypothetical jumper could use that same line when he unpacks all your tandem reserves, or takes a sledge hammer to your jump plane, or knocks your lights out, or whatever else he decides to do. Yes, he would be wrong to do something like that, and I would not condone it, but you'd have no grounds to complain - you knew the consequences beforehand!

In reply to:
Some of us can take what's coming like a man, some need to whine and cry...and retaliate by fighting like any good middle-schooler would.

Good to know you'll take it like a man when someone retaliates in kind - oh wait, it's "fighting like a middle-schooler" when they do it, but "they knew the consequences" when you do it. Crazy

In reply to:
And no it's not goose/gander.

There is no other way to say this: you are wrong.

In reply to:
I would venture to say that few DZOs, and certainly not me, have the inclination to put up with that kind drama. Here's the address of a different DZ. Thanks for stopping by.

There are also some customers who don't have the inclination to put up with that kind of drama. Thanks for the address to the competition, I'm sure my friends and I will have a great time jumping there!


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 11, 2011, 11:56 PM
Post #56 of 127 (1486 views)
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Re: [BrianM] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
YouOur hypothetical jumper knew the consequences beforehand.

FIFY.

Really? Our hypothetical jumper knew the owner of the business that he was giving his money to either doesn't understand law or ethics, or doesn't care for them? Perhaps he didn't know.

OK...you have strawman down pat.
Thanks for playing.


BrianM  (D 661)

May 12, 2011, 12:03 AM
Post #57 of 127 (1481 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
YouOur hypothetical jumper knew the consequences beforehand.

FIFY.

Really? Our hypothetical jumper knew the owner of the business that he was giving his money to either doesn't understand law or ethics, or doesn't care for them? Perhaps he didn't know.

OK...you have strawman down pat.
Thanks for playing.

No strawman argument there. You're the one who claimed you would vandalize someone's property. I can quote it for you if you can't remember.


monkycndo  (D License)

May 12, 2011, 12:17 AM
Post #58 of 127 (1466 views)
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Re: [BrianM] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

Other than the cost/time for a repack, what "damage" was done to this hypothetical jumper's rig by pulling the reserve ripcord? If it actually is damaged, hate to see what the jumper will think when he has to damage his rig when he has a mal and pulls his handle.

Now actually breaking gear that will need replacement, that is pure vandalism. These two situations are completely different.

If it has gotten to the point of pulling handles, this hypothetical jumper is obviously so meatheaded that the only thing they understand is settling things with fists/sledgehammer/etc. Agreed, better for the DZO to have the jumper pack their gear and leave. Then call all surrounding DZs and give them a heads up that the knuckle dragger is no longer allowed at this DZ and why. That way the other DZs can choose if they want their gear damaged as well since that is what can be expected by said jumper if he pulls the same BS at the other DZs requiring additional attitude correction.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 12, 2011, 1:28 AM
Post #59 of 127 (1452 views)
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Re: [BrianM] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

Brain,
Think of the big picture here.

Let's compare two similar situations where you know the consequences of your actions beforehand.

We already discussed stupidity at the DZ and getting a handle pulled for it.

You have a job that feeds you and your family I assume. I'm sure you got prior wind of the consequences of your bad conduct on the job...oral reprimand, written reprimand, termination probably, eh?

Now, you do something stupid and get terminated.

Compared to a reserve pack, what's more important to you...the repack or your livelihood?

Hell dude, if it's in your current make-up to want to fight over the known consequences of having done something stupid, go punch out the HR director! A little jail time may get the message through. A repack is such a little thing by comparison.

In the meantime. have fun at the other DZ and leave the grown-ups to play well together at home.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on May 12, 2011, 1:32 AM)


Joellercoaster  (D 105792)

May 12, 2011, 5:46 AM
Post #60 of 127 (1435 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The S&TA operates under the DZO so the DZO has final say on groundings and bannings.

This is not the case everywhere.

In the UK, there is the CCI (S&TA equivalent), whose authority is absolute. If they ground you, then you are not legally able to jump at their DZ until they change their mind.


Throttlebender  (C 39112)

May 12, 2011, 5:51 AM
Post #61 of 127 (1439 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
What's your point exactly? Are you saying that vandalizing someone's personal property is best because it's possibly easier than speaking to your DZO? Seems like weak sauce to me.
Evidently, you are having trouble understanding a simple statement and must interject stupidity by inserting off-the-wall comments that have nothing to do with the statement at all.
Crazy


In reply to:
To answer your question though, I'd have zero problem speaking with our DZO regarding someone that was being dangerous to themselves or others.
Thanks for the non-answer.
Read the question again....do try to focus on what it's asking, eh?

For your benefit, I'll repeat the two questions:
1. Do YOU have the power to get YOUR DZO to ground them?
2. How many groundings do you want before getting (them) thrown off the DZ?

Well, while I'm having to teach, I'll go back over the "point" for you:
"It's just a matter of getting the DZO to do it.
The S&TA operates under the DZO so the DZO has final say on groundings and bannings."

As an aside:
You might want to avoid the use of "we". You must know that you speak for nobody but yourself, right?
But I do understand why you did it.



For your edumacation how about this bit of clarification:
If I were the DZO...
Young jumper - talk and teach in whatever manner works best for his emotional maturity. Clarify consequences of repeated behavior:
a) grounding short term
b) grounding long term
c) reserve repack
d) banned

Experienced jumper - talk and remind. Clarify consequences of repeated behavior:
a) grounding
b) reserve repack
c) banned

If one had a problem with this and wanted to start swinging fists on part B, then I would have no problem going straight to C to get the emotionally stunted off and away from the rest of us.


What ARE you babbling about?! And please try a little harder not to be such an arrogant prick.

Simply stated: The DZO makes the calls on appropriate action. Not some handle pulling hippie with a superiority complex. What that DZO's decision will be? Who knows.
I also imagine that a DZO might be rather annoyed by having a customer come to them with a vandalism complaint against one of their staff or long-time regulars. Since you allude to the fact that "you" used in the general sense can't influence a DZO's decision to ground someone, why would they accept your arguments for pulling someone else's reserve?
Leave these corrective solutions up to the people that are truly in charge. If you see something happening you don't like, then tell them about it and let THEM handle it.

DON'T TOUCH MY EQUIPMENT.

Is that simple enough for you to grasp?


david3  (D 21297)

May 12, 2011, 8:14 AM
Post #62 of 127 (1396 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
What's your point exactly? Are you saying that vandalizing someone's personal property is best because it's possibly easier than speaking to your DZO? Seems like weak sauce to me.
Evidently, you are having trouble understanding a simple statement and must interject stupidity by inserting off-the-wall comments that have nothing to do with the statement at all.
Crazy


In reply to:
To answer your question though, I'd have zero problem speaking with our DZO regarding someone that was being dangerous to themselves or others.
Thanks for the non-answer.
Read the question again....do try to focus on what it's asking, eh?

For your benefit, I'll repeat the two questions:
1. Do YOU have the power to get YOUR DZO to ground them?
2. How many groundings do you want before getting (them) thrown off the DZ?

Well, while I'm having to teach, I'll go back over the "point" for you:
"It's just a matter of getting the DZO to do it.
The S&TA operates under the DZO so the DZO has final say on groundings and bannings."

As an aside:
You might want to avoid the use of "we". You must know that you speak for nobody but yourself, right?
But I do understand why you did it.



For your edumacation how about this bit of clarification:
If I were the DZO...
Young jumper - talk and teach in whatever manner works best for his emotional maturity. Clarify consequences of repeated behavior:
a) grounding short term
b) grounding long term
c) reserve repack
d) banned

Experienced jumper - talk and remind. Clarify consequences of repeated behavior:
a) grounding
b) reserve repack
c) banned

If one had a problem with this and wanted to start swinging fists on part B, then I would have no problem going straight to C to get the emotionally stunted off and away from the rest of us.

You started off with this. http://www.dropzone.com/...o=ASC;mh=25;#4114276
Now you are back pedaling to say you would have a talk first. I think that may be a part of the problem.

You also said if people dont like the known consequences to SIUCC. Well people have let you know the consequences of touching their gear. If you still decide to dislocate their reserve handle then you should SIUCC when those consequences come to pass even though punching someone would be out of line.



.


simon021

May 12, 2011, 8:27 AM
Post #63 of 127 (1394 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Brain,
Think of the big picture here.

Let's compare two similar situations where you know the consequences of your actions beforehand.

We already discussed stupidity at the DZ and getting a handle pulled for it.

You have a job that feeds you and your family I assume. I'm sure you got prior wind of the consequences of your bad conduct on the job...oral reprimand, written reprimand, termination probably, eh?

Now, you do something stupid and get terminated.

Compared to a reserve pack, what's more important to you...the repack or your livelihood?

Hell dude, if it's in your current make-up to want to fight over the known consequences of having done something stupid, go punch out the HR director! A little jail time may get the message through. A repack is such a little thing by comparison.

In the meantime. have fun at the other DZ and leave the grown-ups to play well together at home.

Normally I'm pretty onboard with Popsjumper, but not 100% this time. I come from the "entitlement generation" and, amazingly enough, I understand ethics and morality and work ethic among other things missing from a big majority of my generation.

Pops, you are being very thick headed about what he's trying to say. You are saying that this hypothetical jumper "knew the consequences of his actions." So is it just common practice at your DZ that if someone doesnt like what you are doing, they can just pull your reserve handle? Thats what you are making it out to be like. We all know that what you are really referring to is an extreme case in an extreme situation with an extreme individual involved that has already been exhausted all forms of reason and pulling their reserve to ground them is about the only thing you can do to give yourself and everyone else a save place to jump.

How about you just come out and say that, instead of you two bickering back and forth arguing semantics.

It's very obvious that pulling someones reserve is not in the normal everyday situation at the DZ. It's an extreme case where your DZO obviously wouldn't fix the problem, and the S&TA wouldn't fix the problem, so now instead of just leaving (the grown up thing to do ), you pull the guys reserve handle.

Or are you saying the DZO or S&TA should pull his reserve handle after he doest listen to their instructions? couldnt they just ground them at this point?

Pulling their reserve handle is just as immoral and immature as them punching you in the face after you do it.

How about this. A hypothetical person is speeding through your neighborhood endangering all your kids. You go let all the air out of his tires (not slashing them, not destroying them, similar to pulling a reserve handle). You think this is morally and ethically the correct way to go about it? Is this the lesson you want to teach your children? If you have a problem with something, take it into your own hands instead of taking it to the proper authorities?

I think that vigilante mentality could be argued to be just as bad as our "entitlement generation" to which you keep referring.

The proper course of action would be to call the cops and let them deal with it. Thats the DZO and the S&TA are for. They are our police at the DZ.

There is really no reason why you should be pulling their reserve handle, or touching their rig at all without their permission. If you dont want to jump with that jackass, go home. If your DZO and S&TA arent addressing the situation, or grounding the individual, then LEAVE. Thats the grownup thing to do.

If your DZO and S&TA are not grounding people like this before it even gets to the point of you thinking you need to open their reserve, then do you really want to be jumping there anyways?

Seriously?

I know I wouldn't.


BrianM  (D 661)

May 12, 2011, 8:39 AM
Post #64 of 127 (1389 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Think of the big picture here.

Let's compare two similar situations where you know the consequences of your actions beforehand.

You have a job that feeds you and your family I assume. I'm sure you got prior wind of the consequences of your bad conduct on the job...oral reprimand, written reprimand, termination probably, eh?

Now, you do something stupid and get terminated.

Termination would be analogous to banning a jumper from your DZ.

Pulling a reserve handle would be more like having my employer mess with the tools I use to do my job (assuming the tools are owned by me and not the company).

I should be aware that I could get terminated (grounded or banned) if I don't shape up. I would not expect to have my tools messed with (reserve pulled).

One is an appropriate method of dealing with a problem. The other is not. One will eliminate the problem. The other runs the risk of opening a big can of worms. That is the big picture!

BTW, a supervisor/manager/etc who messes with another employee's tools would likely get terminated themselves, both because it is behaviour that doesn't belong in the workplace, and also because it creates a legal liability for the company. I've seen it happen.

In reply to:
Hell dude, if it's in your current make-up to want to fight over the known consequences of having done something stupid, go punch out the HR director! A little jail time may get the message through. A repack is such a little thing by comparison.

I keep telling you it's not in my make-up to do that. There are, however, people like that, and I've been using the example of someone retaliating in kind because I thought it might point out some of the reasons why what you are advocating is a poor way of dealing with the problem.

Yes, an employee who punches the HR director could do some jail time. Or maybe the employee calls the cops or hires a lawyer to sue the company for messing with his tools. The legal system provides equal protection to both parties, and both parties should behave appropriately, right? If one doesn't, it's time to terminate the relationship, not start messing around with the other party's property.

In reply to:
In the meantime. have fun at the other DZ and leave the grown-ups to play well together at home.

I'm not grown up because I don't instigate physical confrontations to resolve problems?


BrianM  (D 661)

May 12, 2011, 8:46 AM
Post #65 of 127 (1385 views)
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Re: [monkycndo] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Other than the cost/time for a repack, what "damage" was done to this hypothetical jumper's rig by pulling the reserve ripcord? If it actually is damaged, hate to see what the jumper will think when he has to damage his rig when he has a mal and pulls his handle.

You do something to my car that renders it inoperable until I pay a mechanic to fix it. Vandalism, right?

You do something to my rig that renders it inoperable until I pay a rigger to fix it. See any similarities?

In reply to:
Now actually breaking gear that will need replacement, that is pure vandalism. These two situations are completely different.

Either case incurs both down time and financial cost to render it operable again. Not such a big difference, IMO, and I'm pretty sure the law would agree.

In reply to:
Agreed, better for the DZO to have the jumper pack their gear and leave.

Bingo!


(This post was edited by BrianM on May 12, 2011, 8:49 AM)


Fast  (D 28237)

May 12, 2011, 9:29 AM
Post #66 of 127 (1365 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You knew the consequences beforehand.

You don't agree with that and want to whine and cry when it happens, so be it.

Some of us can take what's coming like a man, some need to whine and cry...and retaliate by fighting like any good middle-schooler would.

It's a reality of life that there's some of one and some of the other.

Were I a DZO, I'd weed the whiners and criers out early. And no it's not goose/gander. I would venture to say that few DZOs, and certainly not me, have the inclination to put up with that kind drama. Here's the address of a different DZ. Thanks for stopping by.

FWIW, If you walked up to someone and yanked their reserve handle on my dz, you would be done too. It's not an appropriate problem solving tool. I have seen dudes ready to fight over much less offenses and it just isn't necessary.

The reality of things is that, if someone is talked to by a DZO and doesn't listen, I would be astonished to see them not removed from the dropzone.

These kinds of offences don't happen that often in reality and most of the time people shape up.

Now, if you think something is a problem, talk to the jumper and the DZO, but the DZO doesn't agree, then I think you're either wrong or at the wrong dropzone.

Yanking reserve handles is just about as stupid as physical violence and neither should be tolerated at any time on a dropzone. It's asking for problems that no one wants.


(This post was edited by Fast on May 12, 2011, 9:30 AM)


Throttlebender  (C 39112)

May 12, 2011, 2:12 PM
Post #67 of 127 (1320 views)
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Re: [Fast] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

Fast, Brian , and Simon.....well stated and much more calmly articulated thatn my own statements.

Sorry for getting a bit "hot" everyone, but condescending attitudes tend to take me there.

Regardless, well argued.
Cheers!


jtval  (D 26340)

May 12, 2011, 5:46 PM
Post #68 of 127 (1283 views)
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Re: [BrianM] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Deal with it properly. Start by talking to the person about the issue - you know, like mature adults do. Resort to the S&TA and/or DZO if necessary.

The ONLY think I disagree with in your method is that the S&TA/DZO is an option.


I completely agree that you should handle it on the lowest level, but I personally believe that the S&TA/DZO should be given a heads-up about a situation they may not have been aware of, otherwise.

That discussion with the S&TA/DZO is not for the intention of "tattling" on someone but for the overall safety of the DZ. The S&TA may have already spoken with the person a few times even though this is your first time talking with him.


millertime24  (C 38793)

May 12, 2011, 6:01 PM
Post #69 of 127 (1278 views)
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Re: About the "Fucking with people property discussion..." [In reply to] Can't Post

OK. So some of you think pulling someones reserve will somehow instill education and compliance. I don't agree with this and here's why... Sure if I fuck up you can sneak up and yank my silver (an event that you would likely regret), but what does that to to (re)-educate someone about why what they were doing was wrong? To add on that where does it stop? "Sorry I sliced your tire because the way you drive is unsafe" (BTW, a tire on my car cast about as much as a reserve repack), or " I burned your house to the ground because you smoke inside and dont replace the batteries in your smoke detectors.. I did you a FAVOR!!".

My bottom line is you don't fuck with someone else's shit PERIOD!

Now into the discussion regarding correcting behavior. In the military, if I fuck up the first thing that happens is I get "talked to" (prob why I was so receptive when it happened at the dz). If you do not correct your behavior after that you get paperwork (the bad kind that starts a trail for future incidences). Pretty much after that you get the boot. Now in the "talking to" portion of this you are told what you did wrong and how to correct it (note, you aren't beaten, or have your valuables messed with here). This would equate to "being talked to" in skyjumping. Usually this step is enough as it was for me. After that you talk about grounding then past that banning.

Ill admit, Ive done STUPID SHIT under canopy and it's damn lucky that it was under the perfect conditions to ensure my, and other jumpers safety. I won't be making these sort of mistakes again. The 270 in the vid I posted (which isn't the vid of the pattern I got talked to about) WAS STUPID! I thought I had cleared my airspace, but even doing that in traffic is STOOPID!!!

My endgame for this thread is for people to learn and to not make the same mistakes as me (lucky as I may have been). Also, it is to be receptive to the criticism of your S&TA and DZO. Thats all I'm trying to accomplish here.

And yes Pops, the jump in the vid was not the same jump that prompted this thread (though what I did in that vid was unsafe too, hence the nothing but 90's in the pattern from now on)

-Mike


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 12, 2011, 6:13 PM
Post #70 of 127 (1271 views)
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Re: [Joellercoaster] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The S&TA operates under the DZO so the DZO has final say on groundings and bannings.

This is not the case everywhere.

In the UK, there is the CCI (S&TA equivalent), whose authority is absolute. If they ground you, then you are not legally able to jump at their DZ until they change their mind.

Personally, I like this idea!
No muss, no fuss, no questions asked.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 12, 2011, 7:28 PM
Post #71 of 127 (1256 views)
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Re: [simon021] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I come from the "entitlement generation" and, amazingly enough, I understand ethics and morality and work ethic among other things missing from a big majority of my generation.
Good on you. You're one of the exceptions and yes one can never say ALL of anything.

In reply to:
Pops, you are being very thick headed about what he's trying to say.
Yes, I am. What he saying is that fighting is a valid response to having a reserve handle pulled. I'm saying it's not. I don't see fighting as a valid response to any confrontation except being under physical attack.

In reply to:
So is it just common practice at your DZ that if someone doesnt like what you are doing, they can just pull your reserve handle?
No, of course not! No need to even ask that.

In reply to:
We all know that what you are really referring to is an extreme case in an extreme situation with an extreme individual involved that has already been exhausted all forms of reason....
...up to being banned from the DZ as the last step.

In reply to:
....and pulling their reserve to ground them is about the only thing you can do to give yourself and everyone else a save place to jump.
The intent is not to ground them...that has already been tried. This is a last-ditch effort to get the message through to them that their antics won't be tolerated anymore. The next and last step is being banned form the DZ.


In reply to:
How about you just come out and say that, instead of you two bickering back and forth arguing semantics.
Sorry. Didn't realize we were arguing semantics.
We were arguing the validity of fighting as a valid response to pulling a reserve handle. He says it is. I say it's not.


In reply to:
It's very obvious that pulling someones reserve is not in the normal everyday situation at the DZ. It's an extreme case where your DZO obviously wouldn't fix the problem, and the S&TA wouldn't fix the problem, so now instead of just leaving (the grown up thing to do ), you pull the guys reserve handle.
No, you're off base here. See next reply...

In reply to:
Or are you saying the DZO or S&TA should pull his reserve handle after he doest listen to their instructions? couldnt they just ground them at this point?
The grounding has already happened and then the bozo repeats...what do you do? I favor giving them at least one more chance prior to being banned from the DZ. Pulling a handle just might get the message across that the behavior won't be tolerated anymore and the banning comes next.
Yes, it is the DZO/S&TA job to enforce rules. Apparently you are thinking that I am going to pull handles. Hell no! I have no authority to do that! Neither does Brian, neither do you nor any other local yokel. That's a DZO and S&TA job to get those messages across....and it's THEIR prerogative on how they want to do that. I say that pulling a reserve is a valid method of getting the bozos attention to get the message across. Simple as that.

On top of that, why should anyone let some bozo force them from the DZ? Only in the case of where the problems are not being handled by the DZO/S&TA would one want to turn over the asylum to the lunatics.

In reply to:
Pulling their reserve handle is just as immoral and immature as them punching you in the face after you do it.
Not even close. There's a big difference between pulling a handle and physically attacking someone.

In reply to:
How about this. A hypothetical person is speeding through your neighborhood endangering all your kids. You go let all the air out of his tires (not slashing them, not destroying them, similar to pulling a reserve handle). You think this is morally and ethically the correct way to go about it?
Hell no! You confront face-to-face. Sneaking around in the middle of the night letting air out of tires is rather immature, don't you think? Well, I have to admit I did it once when I was 14....but that's another story.

In reply to:
Is this the lesson you want to teach your children? If you have a problem with something, take it into your own hands instead of taking it to the proper authorities?
See reply above.

In reply to:
I think that vigilante mentality could be argued to be just as bad as our "entitlement generation" to which you keep referring.
Yep, that mentality is bad, agreed. Though how it relates to entitlement generation, I don't know.

In reply to:
The proper course of action would be to call the cops and let them deal with it. Thats the DZO and the S&TA are for. They are our police at the DZ.
Exactly. You get it. Again, apparently, you've been thinking that me or any ol' body would pull somebody's handle? Oh, hell no! Not at all!
You are correct that it is the DZO and/or S&TA job to do that. Not mine, not yours, not Brian's.....

In reply to:
There is really no reason why you should be pulling their reserve handle, or touching their rig at all without their permission.
Agreed.

In reply to:
If you dont want to jump with that jackass, go home. If your DZO and S&TA arent addressing the situation, or grounding the individual, then LEAVE. Thats the grownup thing to do.

Absolutely! If the insanity is not being handled then hell yes! Vote with your feet! That applies to anything at anyplace! I would hope that everyone would do just that...I know I have...more than once.

In reply to:
If your DZO and S&TA are not grounding people like this before it even gets to the point of you thinking you need to open their reserve, then do you really want to be jumping there anyways?
Well, this is another indication that you are thinking some every-day jumper should do that. Let's hope not. I would be highly pissed if some local yokel walked up and yanked my handle...but I would not be fighting about it....you had previously mentioned "grown-up"....Do you think fighting is a grown up way to handle anything? I don't.

In reply to:
Seriously?
Yes.

Now...to repeat if I was the DZO..yes, I'd pull your handle as a last resort to get you to quit the BS behavior.
Would you rather just be banned instead? That would be just fine with me, too!
I would support any DZO/S&TA that did it for the same reason.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on May 12, 2011, 7:32 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 12, 2011, 7:45 PM
Post #72 of 127 (1248 views)
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Re: [millertime24] About the "Fucking with people property discussion..." [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
OK. So some of you think pulling someones reserve will somehow instill education and compliance.

No. Pulling the handle is not the message...it's the attention-getter. It should instill compliance. If it doesn't, you'd be invited to jump elsewhere, I'm sure.

In reply to:
Sure if I fuck up you can sneak up and yank my silver (an event that you would likely regret),
Aw, geez, Mike. Don't tell me you are one of those, too.
Unsure

In reply to:
To add on that where does it stop? "Sorry I....
You're kidding right?

In reply to:
My bottom line is you don't fuck with someone else's shit PERIOD!
You would apply that thought even to your DZO and S&TA?
I could understand that. Yet you would fight over having a handle pulled?


In reply to:
My endgame for this thread is for people to learn and to not make the same mistakes as me (lucky as I may have been). Also, it is to be receptive to the criticism of your S&TA and DZO. Thats all I'm trying to accomplish here.

And yes Pops, the jump in the vid was not the same jump that prompted this thread (though what I did in that vid was unsafe too, hence the nothing but 90's in the pattern from now on)

Good stuff...That was the whole point of the OP anyway.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on May 12, 2011, 7:57 PM)


simon021

May 12, 2011, 8:18 PM
Post #73 of 127 (1231 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

I might have missed it, but I didnt ever catch the point that you were refering to the DZO or S&TA pulling the handle. If thats the case, I can retract just about everything I said, and agree with you fully.

I have no problem with a DZO or S&TA pulling the handle of someone who has been repeatedly warned and or punished for repeatedly endangering others and as a last resort before completely banning the person from the DZ. Thats fine with me. Will it do any good? I highly doubt it. It's just going to cause confrontation between the individual who pulled the reserve, and the individual whos reserve was pulled. I think by that point it's obvious that they are not getting, nor will ever get, the message.

I also agree with what you said up above. If the S&TA had authority to ground someone, that would eliminate some of the DZ politics involved in the DZO himself banning someone. That sounds like a very effective system.


(This post was edited by simon021 on May 12, 2011, 8:19 PM)


DocPop  (C License)

May 12, 2011, 8:23 PM
Post #74 of 127 (1226 views)
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Re: [simon021] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

There is no need for anyone to pull someone else's reserve handle. Ground them or ban them from the dropzone that achieves the safety goal.

What's the point of fucking with their kit? That's just inflammatory and frankly turns the person in the right into someone in the wrong.


SStewart  (D 10405)

May 12, 2011, 8:46 PM
Post #75 of 127 (1217 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

How many times (if ever) have you pulled another jumpers reserve handle?

I call bullshit.

Before you answer I want names, dates and a credible witness.

I have only been jumping for 30 years but I remember hearing stories about this kind of thing from the 60's and 70's and as I recall it always ended up in a violent confrontation in the parking lot.

Is this really how Y'all still handle things down south?


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