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Got "talked to" this weekend

 

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millertime24  (C 38793)

May 8, 2011, 1:23 PM
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Got "talked to" this weekend Can't Post

Ill man up and admit a mistake I made for the educational benefit of others. Basically I flew a tight pattern with a high speed approach and cut off a guy flying a much larger pattern doing toggle 90's. While I was well below the other guy on final and I saw him the whole time and flew accordingly (in my mind) there was still a risk of collision that my S&TA decided was significant enough to remind me of.

In the attached pic, the black area is the LZ. The red line is my pattern, and the green line is the other guys pattern.

After "the talk" I adjusted my pattern/behavior to enhance safer landings. Maybe there's something to be learned here, or maybe I'm just an idiot for doing what I did. Anywho, this is just a heads up on how you may endanger your fellow jumpers.
Attachments: wrong pattern.odg (9.38 KB)


jrmrangers  (B 36060)

May 8, 2011, 2:01 PM
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Re: [millertime24] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you for manning up and posting that. Not everyone would have. Actually when i first saw the heading i thought your girlfreind gave you "The Talk"TongueTongueTongue


chuckakers  (D 10855)

May 8, 2011, 3:52 PM
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Re: [millertime24] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks, man. It's that kind of thinking that will take our canopy collision issue in the right direction.

Quick post-jump question: was the other jumper ever within striking distance had he/she made an unexpected move at the wrong moment?


wmw999  (D 6296)

May 8, 2011, 4:45 PM
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Re: [millertime24] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

Good post, thanks. Part of being safe isn't just knowing that you can handle the situation, it's being predictable enough that everyone else can handle it too.

Wendy P.


obelixtim  (D 84)

May 9, 2011, 6:58 AM
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Re: [millertime24] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Well done. It takes balls to fess up to a mistake. Hopefully others will follow your example.


piisfish

May 9, 2011, 7:17 AM
Post #6 of 127 (4182 views)
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Re: [millertime24] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

good job admitting the error and applying correction to your flight pattern.

Could you please attach in another format that my work computer could open ?


Hellis

May 9, 2011, 7:40 AM
Post #7 of 127 (4151 views)
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Re: [piisfish] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

I had the same problem but when i open it as a zip, one file makes sense in the "zip"
Attachments: thumbnail.png (1.25 KB)


DocPop  (C License)

May 9, 2011, 7:48 AM
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Re: [millertime24] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for posting.

I aborted 3 of 3 swoops on Friday because my setup was off (I was not having a good pattern flying day!). I know if I had carried out any of those I would have got "talked to" as well!


millertime24  (C 38793)

May 9, 2011, 8:10 AM
Post #9 of 127 (4109 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Thanks, man. It's that kind of thinking that will take our canopy collision issue in the right direction.

Quick post-jump question: was the other jumper ever within striking distance had he/she made an unexpected move at the wrong moment?

No, there is no way the other canopy could have struck me. He was too far above and behind on final, but I guess it's about setting good examples for everyone. S&TA says he wants us flying bigger patterns, then Ill (aside from solo H&P's) fly a bigger pattern.


DougH  (D License)

May 9, 2011, 8:32 AM
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Re: [DocPop] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Thanks for posting.

I aborted 3 of 3 swoops on Friday because my setup was off (I was not having a good pattern flying day!). I know if I had carried out any of those I would have got "talked to" as well!

And what happens when you don't realize that your "setup was off".

There have been way more experinced jumpers that didn't know when not to go for their swoop.

Unless I am a hop and pop or a clear pull from altitude I will only do a conventional pattern with a 90 degree turn on to final, and I try my best to keep my head on a swivel and stay ahead of my canopy because it is going to overtake slower canopies.


DocPop  (C License)

May 9, 2011, 8:45 AM
Post #11 of 127 (4051 views)
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Re: [DougH] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

 
In reply to:
And what happens when you don't realize that your "setup was off".

Well that's sort of the point, isn't it? If you have a plan, and you know what to expect then you can tell when you're not "on" for that plan and then you have to decide whether to proceed with a HP turn or just fly a regular pattern.

IMO a swoop is a privilege for having everything go as planned not a right on every jump.

In reply to:
There have been way more experinced jumpers that didn't know when not to go for their swoop.

Exactly. Complacency kills.

In reply to:
Unless I am a hop and pop or a clear pull from altitude I will only do a conventional pattern with a 90 degree turn on to final, and I try my best to keep my head on a swivel and stay ahead of my canopy because it is going to overtake slower canopies.

I was doing high-pulls on all these jumps and landing in the further of two LZs - everyone else was planning on the near one. On two of my jumps I reached my setup point too low and on one a tandem had decided to land in my designated LZ for some reason. Result = no HP turns.


BrianM  (D 661)

May 9, 2011, 9:56 AM
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Re: [Hellis] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I had the same problem but when i open it as a zip, one file makes sense in the "zip"

It's an Open Document format. You can open it with Open Office (or a number of other applications). MS Word will open it but messes it up.

I've converted it to a PNG, see attached.
Attachments: wrong_pattern.png (17.2 KB)


Southern_Man  (C License)

May 9, 2011, 10:44 AM
Post #13 of 127 (3901 views)
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Re: [millertime24] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Ill man up and admit a mistake I made for the educational benefit of others. Basically I flew a tight pattern with a high speed approach and cut off a guy flying a much larger pattern doing toggle 90's.

Is this how you have been flying your pattern? In other words, was this "talking to" a result of you doing something different than standard practice or was it a result of increased vigilance at your DZ over pattern discipline?

What sort of high speed approach? Front risering a 90*? Great than 90?


Skyper

May 9, 2011, 11:18 AM
Post #14 of 127 (3855 views)
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Re: [BrianM] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

I saw similar drawings in the caves of Babylon dated some 2000 years B.C.


(This post was edited by Skyper on May 9, 2011, 11:21 AM)


DocPop  (C License)

May 9, 2011, 11:32 AM
Post #15 of 127 (3824 views)
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Re: [Skyper] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I saw similar drawings in the caves of Babylon dated some 2000 years B.C.

So despite what some have said, this is not a new problem Wink


Hellis

May 9, 2011, 2:01 PM
Post #16 of 127 (3744 views)
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Re: [Skyper] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I saw similar drawings in the caves of Babylon dated some 2000 years B.C.

Must have been Twardo
WinkLaugh


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 9, 2011, 4:32 PM
Post #17 of 127 (3647 views)
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Re: [millertime24] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't see what the problem is.
Red guy coming in lower and faster turns inside and gives the higher, slower green guy plenty of room on the right. No paths crossed.

That's the way is should be done in those instances.

Also, we don't know enough to comment on how the vertical separation got the way it was.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

May 9, 2011, 5:41 PM
Post #18 of 127 (3603 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't see what the problem is.
Red guy coming in lower and faster turns inside and gives the higher, slower green guy plenty of room on the right. No paths crossed.

that's what I see here too. Scenario = Red guy comes in and sees he may be in the way of green guy if he continues, so he turns short to avoid the potential (but unlikely since he's lower, faster, and making a more radical move now) collision....

The problem being, is he turned hard from downwind to final and if someone would have been in the pattern behind him now, then that could have been an issue maybe.

but...green guy does a nice predictable pattern. red guy got stuck having to avoid and do a 180 in the pattern - possibly too low


(This post was edited by rehmwa on May 9, 2011, 5:45 PM)


millertime24  (C 38793)

May 9, 2011, 6:14 PM
Post #19 of 127 (3583 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
What sort of high speed approach? Front risering a 90*? Great than 90?

This. And if you'll notice the camera never sees the green canopy the whole time (I saw him though). Also, after landing I had enough time to get the toggles out of my hands and shut off the camera before the guy I cut off landed.

Again, it's more of a "don't do it because this isn't the behavior that should happen in the pattern.

Vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqnRxGKy1RA


(This post was edited by millertime24 on May 9, 2011, 6:20 PM)


DocPop  (C License)

May 9, 2011, 6:33 PM
Post #20 of 127 (3567 views)
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Re: [millertime24] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
What sort of high speed approach? Front risering a 90*? Great than 90?

This. And if you'll notice the camera never sees the green canopy the whole time (I saw him though). Also, after landing I had enough time to get the toggles out of my hands and shut off the camera before the guy I cut off landed.

Again, it's more of a "don't do it because this isn't the behavior that should happen in the pattern.

Vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqnRxGKy1RA

So was it the fact that you did a 270 into the main landing area that the S&TA objected to?


millertime24  (C 38793)

May 9, 2011, 6:45 PM
Post #21 of 127 (3558 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
What sort of high speed approach? Front risering a 90*? Great than 90?

This. And if you'll notice the camera never sees the green canopy the whole time (I saw him though). Also, after landing I had enough time to get the toggles out of my hands and shut off the camera before the guy I cut off landed.

Again, it's more of a "don't do it because this isn't the behavior that should happen in the pattern.

Vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqnRxGKy1RA

So was it the fact that you did a 270 into the main landing area that the S&TA objected to?

Not exactly. The "main" landing area is our only landing area. I did a 270 knowing that the speed of my canopy would put me far below and ahead of the jumper I cut off. He objected to doing this ANY traffic regardless of situational awareness. His reasoning is sound. If I do it and some junior jumper sees and thinks its ok for them to do then we start breeding an unsafe "if he can do it so can I" attitude.

My S&TA even told me different locations and approaches to make such a maneuver in a safer manner while he was talking to me. And thats another thing, when people approach me with a "this was a bad idea and heres why, but heres how you can do what you want in a safer manner" I tend to listen and appreciate the advice given more.


airtwardo  (D License)

May 9, 2011, 7:06 PM
Post #22 of 127 (3541 views)
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Re: [Hellis] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I saw similar drawings in the caves of Babylon dated some 2000 years B.C.

Must have been Twardo
WinkLaugh


Wait...WHAT?! MadSly


millertime24  (C 38793)

May 9, 2011, 7:14 PM
Post #23 of 127 (3531 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I saw similar drawings in the caves of Babylon dated some 2000 years B.C.

Must have been Twardo
WinkLaugh


Wait...WHAT?! MadSly

I suck at art so you fags can piss off.Laugh BTW, what did guys like Twardo use as parachutes 2000 years ago?SlyLaughTongue


airtwardo  (D License)

May 9, 2011, 7:40 PM
Post #24 of 127 (3518 views)
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Re: [millertime24] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

Cool
Attachments: one of these.jpg (33.5 KB)


AggieDave  (D License)

May 9, 2011, 7:44 PM
Post #25 of 127 (3514 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Got "talked to" this weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

His parachute came out of the sky like a rock...


because it was made of rock!


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