Forums: Skydiving: Tandem Skydiving:
Why was/is Class 3 Medical For TI

 

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AggieDave  (D License)

Feb 7, 2011, 2:49 PM
Post #26 of 102 (1776 views)
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Re: [GLIDEANGLE] Why was/is Class 3 Medical For TI [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The whole thing is a PITA and cost more money for the joy of a having a rating.

It isn't about the TI's joy.... it is about protecting paying customers.

So that student that had to pilot the tandem pair down after his instructor suffered a fatal heart attack was protected how?


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Feb 7, 2011, 2:53 PM
Post #27 of 102 (1774 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Why was/is Class 3 Medical For TI [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
All working skydives ( AFFI,TANDEM I, Static Line, coaches, video guy,ect) would need a class 2 because they are a pilot for hire. So where is the standard.

You're right. I think the standard ought to be changed. Upwards.

Good luck with that. If that would happen. It would be safe to say good bye to our sport.

Listen, Im not asking to lower the standards. I'm frustrated. My organized body is telling me that I have to go to another organized body to get their medical( that I'm having a hard time getting obliviously) Now the body is giving me a hard time. By the way they don't require the Medical ( Did I say that already) to do what my organized body is giving me the rating in. That's how it is on paper no matter how you look/think about it. Just frustrating to me. And it all started with a Med a Doctor prescribed 22years ago. I took one pill and never took it again. So again I'm just frustrated and have dealt with this for months now.


(This post was edited by ozzy13 on Feb 7, 2011, 3:19 PM)


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Feb 7, 2011, 3:16 PM
Post #28 of 102 (1760 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] Why was/is Class 3 Medical For TI [In reply to] Can't Post

Why? I jump with a few people that hold ATP ratings and are TI's. I would have no issues getting a Class 1 if need and only a few people I know would have issues. Those same people are the ones that have issues getting and maintaining a Class 3.


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Feb 7, 2011, 3:27 PM
Post #29 of 102 (1759 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Why was/is Class 3 Medical For TI [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why? I jump with a few people that hold ATP ratings and are TI's. I would have no issues getting a Class 1 if need and only a few people I know would have issues. Those same people are the ones that have issues getting and maintaining a Class 3.

Ok Ill play. You report all drugs that are prescribed to you by a Doctor? Even ones for a cold? All surgeries/hospitalizations ect. (You don't have to answer) You are suppose to report them. That's why I would think our sport would be done. We are a small base and to add those requirements to get into a First jump class would definitely kill our sport unless you tell them before they go to the medical to lie and answer no to all app questions.


(This post was edited by ozzy13 on Feb 7, 2011, 3:34 PM)


stratostar  (Student)

Feb 7, 2011, 4:03 PM
Post #30 of 102 (1744 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] Why was/is Class 3 Medical For TI [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe I missed it, but could you tell us what this one pill was you took? Not trying to get your personal info outed, just thought it might help others avoid the problem your now having.


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Feb 7, 2011, 4:17 PM
Post #31 of 102 (1741 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Why was/is Class 3 Medical For TI [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry would rather not say. If they were on it. The only way to avoid it would be to lie about it.


(This post was edited by ozzy13 on Feb 7, 2011, 4:26 PM)


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Feb 7, 2011, 6:48 PM
Post #32 of 102 (1709 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Why was/is Class 3 Medical For TI [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Maybe I missed it, but could you tell us what this one pill was you took? Not trying to get your personal info outed, just thought it might help others avoid the problem your now having.

I can think of several drugs which if EVER taken would probably be disqualifying until the case was fully explored by the FAA. For example:

Nitroglycerin is used almost exclusively to treat angina pectoris or myocardial infarction. If one EVER took that drug, the FAA would probably assume a history of one or both of those conditions….which are automatically disqualifying, until the FAA is satisfied that the condition won’t likely be a problem. Note that the rule is a HISTORY of the condition… it need not be active to be initially disqualifying.

FAR 67.311
Cardiovascular standards for a third-class airman medical certificate are no established medical history or clinical diagnosis of any of the following:
(a) Myocardial infarction;
(b) Angina pectoris;


Another example would be any anti-convulsant medication which doesn’t have other uses* (some of them can be used for other things too). If one EVER took one of those drugs, the FAA would probably assume a history of epilepsy or seizure disorder….which is automatically disqualifying, until the FAA is satisfied that the condition won’t likely be a problem. Note that the rule is a HISTORY of the condition… it need not be active to be initially disqualifying.

FAR 67.309
Neurologic standards for a third-class airman medical certificate are:
(a) No established medical history or clinical diagnosis of any of the following:
(1) Epilepsy;


A final example would be any of the drugs below which are used for substance abuse. If one EVER took one of those drugs, the FAA would probably assume a history of substance abuse….which is automatically disqualifying, until the FAA is satisfied that the condition won’t likely be a problem. Note that the rule is a HISTORY of the condition… it need not be active to be initially disqualifying.

Opoid dependence:

---SUBOXONE® (buprenorphine and naloxone)

Alcohol dependence:

---Campral®(acamprosate calcium)
---Antabuse (disulfiram)
---Vivitrol (naltrexone)

FAR 67.307:
Mental standards for a third-class airman medical certificate are:
(a) No established medical history or clinical diagnosis of any of the following:
(4) Substance dependence, except where there is established clinical evidence, satisfactory to the Federal Air Surgeon, of recovery, including sustained total abstinence from the substance(s) for not less than the preceding 2 years. As used in this section—


I am confident that I could find other examples. If in doubt, consult with one of the aviation medical consulting firms BEFORE you take the drug. These firms can answer your questions knowledgably without the FAA ever knowing. Some examples:

http://aviationmedicine.com/ I have been satisfied with the work that they did for me.

http://www.leftseat.com/

*Anti-convulsants are a large group of drugs. It would take me a while to develop and sort through a list.


stratostar  (Student)

Feb 7, 2011, 7:12 PM
Post #33 of 102 (1703 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] Why was/is Class 3 Medical For TI [In reply to] Can't Post

no problem. I was trying to think of all the crap they asked me or what may have been on a list of questions and I couldn't think of anything a young guy could take once an have be a problem, however I think some stuff was cover in the next post by GE that I hadn't thought of.


chris74  (No 568073)

Feb 7, 2011, 9:10 PM
Post #34 of 102 (1686 views)
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Re: [wolfriverjoe] Why was/is Class 3 Medical For TI [In reply to] Can't Post

Joseph,
The last one :1st Class - Airline Transport Pilots .
Your are right, we renew our first class medical certificate every year ( Fighting fit ! ) because we are flying passengers too,
By the way, French Parapros will have mandatory recurrency jumps training & exams in the future.
Blue sky
Taz


(This post was edited by chris74 on Feb 7, 2011, 9:12 PM)
Attachments: Class1.jpg (129 KB)


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 7, 2011, 10:05 PM
Post #35 of 102 (1675 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] Why was/is Class 3 Medical For TI [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry,

But I disagree with you, because I believe that every TI should have regular physical exams.
This time last year, I renewed my Transport Canada Class 1 Medical, the same medical required to hold a Commercial Pilot License.
While in the doctor's office, I told him about the lengthy list of injuries suffered during an airplane crash 18 months earlier. He renewed my Class 1 Medical. The only restriction is that I wear corrective lenses.

Last June, I certified a new TI who had suffered a mild heart attack the previous summer. When I submitted his paperwork to Strong Enterprises, I included a copy of a letter - signed by his cardiologist - saying that he was fit to skydive.

My point is: it is still possible to earn a Class 1 medical - despite previous injuries - provided a doctor says that you are fully healed.

P.S. I would prefer that TI medicals included a few push-ups and chin-ups to demonstrate physical strength.
I also believe that all skydiving instructors should do some refresher training every year.

Rob Warner
Strong Tandem Examiner


piisfish

Feb 8, 2011, 12:30 AM
Post #36 of 102 (1666 views)
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Re: [wolfriverjoe] Why was/is Class 3 Medical For TI [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Just out of curiostiy, what constitutes a French "First Class Medical"?
What level of pilot certificate is it used for?

Here in the US:

3rd Class - Student and Private Pilots
2nd Class - Commercial Pilots
1st Class - Airline Transport Pilots

Obviously the higher the class, the more stringent the requirements.
Personally, I have to renew my 2nd Class every year to be able to fly jumpers (Commercial Pilot)..
The classes are the same.


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Feb 8, 2011, 5:34 AM
Post #37 of 102 (1646 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Why was/is Class 3 Medical For TI [In reply to] Can't Post

Rob
I wish it was that easy in the US but it's not. Try going to a us medical flight sergeant and see what happens. I think it would be safe to say they would give both of you a hard time and I would even say that your student wouldn't even get cleared.

Again people. I'm not say we should lower standards here. I'm just trying to understand why it's there. Everyone I talk thinks the FAA requires it but they don't.

Ps it has been suggested to me to go up to canada to get the medical.


(This post was edited by ozzy13 on Feb 8, 2011, 5:46 AM)


DiverMike  (C 40024)

Feb 8, 2011, 6:13 AM
Post #38 of 102 (1638 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] Why was/is Class 3 Medical For TI [In reply to] Can't Post

This has been covered in other posts, but I'll show it again.

The FAA doesn't require a current 3rd class medical, it does require "One of the parachutists using the tandem parachute system . . . Has been certified by the appropriate parachute manufacturer or tandem course provider as being properly trained on the use of the specific tandem parachute system to be used." [PART 105 SEC 105.45 (a) 1 (v)]

If the manufacturer or tandem course provider does not consider you properly trained without a current 3rd class medical certificate, then you are in violation of the FAA regulations if you don't have a current 3rd class medical certificate.

It falls completely and solely on the shoulders of the manufacturer of the tandem and what they consider to be proper training. If the manufacturer required as part of training for you to dress up and skydive like a dirty pirate hooker, you would have to or be in violation of the above stated FAA regulation.

I am not a TI, but I don't see a connection between being medically fit and having been trained. The language in the FAR seems to me to be poorly worded in that it uses the past tense in "Has been certified". It does not say you have to be currently certified. IMHO it should say "is certified" to allow the manufacturer to require a current 3rd class medical.

But then again, I'm just an anal-retentive grammar nazi.


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Feb 8, 2011, 6:30 AM
Post #39 of 102 (1627 views)
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Re: [DiverMike] Why was/is Class 3 Medical For TI [In reply to] Can't Post

 

But then again, I'm just an anal-retentive grammar nazi.

Ha you must love reading my posts :)


jimjumper  (D 11137)

Feb 8, 2011, 8:03 AM
Post #40 of 102 (1595 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Why was/is Class 3 Medical For TI [In reply to] Can't Post

Nonsense! I have had problems getting even a Class 3 because I only have 20/40 vision in one eye even after corrective surgery. I still have managed to do over 2000 tandems over 15 years without any injuries. Again the issue is whether or not a medical exam will prevent any type of hazards to paying students.


piisfish

Feb 8, 2011, 8:12 AM
Post #41 of 102 (1591 views)
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Re: [jimjumper] Why was/is Class 3 Medical For TI [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Again the issue is whether or not a medical exam will prevent any type of hazards to paying students.
no it won't, but it will cover the asses of the people who risk their businesses in case of an incident. It means that the TI is regularly checked and is more or less in a good medical shape.
You can still have a stroke in freefall the day after your medical, like your Cypres could fail teh day after the revision. It is not a guarantee, it is just a CYA check.


TheCaptain  (D License)

Feb 8, 2011, 9:02 AM
Post #42 of 102 (1570 views)
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Re: [piisfish] Why was/is Class 3 Medical For TI [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
no it won't, but it will cover the asses of the people who risk their businesses in case of an incident. It means that the TI is regularly checked and is more or less in a good medical shape.
You can still have a stroke in freefall the day after your medical, like your Cypres could fail teh day after the revision. It is not a guarantee, it is just a CYA check.

To go along your thought pattern( which I agree with) I know in the end all TI's take on a huge liablity risk doing this job, but just think if a TI was taken to court and found he failed the flight physical and or had to go to Canada to get one. I would think it would be extremely bad for that TI


(This post was edited by TheCaptain on Feb 8, 2011, 9:03 AM)


matt3sa  (D 29266)

Apr 24, 2011, 7:41 PM
Post #43 of 102 (1444 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] Why was/is Class 3 Medical For TI [In reply to] Can't Post

I had troubles with my class 3 as well. I had a kidney stone way way back my senior year in highschool. They required me to have over 2000 dollars in tests to verify that I didn't have any stones left. It held me up for almost a year before the faa actually got me my medical. Its a bullshit requirement. Im even more annoyed when I have to annualy mail uspa a copy of the medical. Its the same copy that I have to dig out every single time.... make a copy.... mail it again etc... I mean common uspa.... you have the same copy from the last two or three years. You know how long its good for! I hope the costly medical regulations are revised if they are up for discussion.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Apr 25, 2011, 5:00 AM
Post #44 of 102 (1410 views)
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Re: [matt3sa] Why was/is Class 3 Medical For TI [In reply to] Can't Post

But we need to show in some manner we are physically fit and capable of performing the task of safely bringing our students back down.

Matt


stayhigh  (F 111)

May 4, 2011, 11:12 PM
Post #45 of 102 (1302 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] Why was/is Class 3 Medical For TI [In reply to] Can't Post

seriously, who came up with the idea of class 3 medical for the TIs???

Not only I have to take my own damn time and money to go get one.
Finding a doctor with convenience of my schedule is difficult.

and why class 3????
not class 2????

and finally does tandem paragliding pilot requires having a class 2 or 3??
clearly it is commercial operation.
even FAA guy was surprised that we require class 3 or any medical and he wondered why not class 2.


(This post was edited by stayhigh on May 4, 2011, 11:14 PM)


stayhigh  (F 111)

May 4, 2011, 11:29 PM
Post #46 of 102 (1296 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] Why was/is Class 3 Medical For TI [In reply to] Can't Post

i think any dropzone manager and tandem examiner can determine whether we are fit and skilled enough to jump with the customer or not.

getting tandem rating SHOWs in some manner that we are physically fit and capable.

faa medical doctor can not really determine how safely we can land our parachute. Nor medical that is good for 5 year doesn't mean shit. You can develop heart problem or whatever with in that time frame.

my guess is that at some point of time frame. A member of USPA was in bed with FAA medical examiner and thought it would be great to make more money out of us.

this rule is complete BS, get rid of this rule or up it to class 2.


(This post was edited by stayhigh on May 4, 2011, 11:35 PM)


peek  (D 8884)

May 5, 2011, 4:56 AM
Post #47 of 102 (1283 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] Why was/is Class 3 Medical For TI [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
seriously, who came up with the idea of class 3 medical for the TIs???

The tandem manufacturers, when they requested the original exemption to allow tandem jumping to take place. (Blame Bill and Ted.)

In reply to:
and why class 3???? not class 2???? even FAA guy was surprised that we require class 3 or any medical and he wondered why not class 2.

Anyone (including any FAA guy) that compares the requirements for a class 3 medical to class 2 medical will easily understand why, by thinking about how being a tandem parachutist-in-command differs from a (aircraft) pilot-in-command.


Andy9o8  (D License)

May 5, 2011, 6:17 AM
Post #48 of 102 (1268 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] Why was/is Class 3 Medical For TI [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
i think any dropzone manager and tandem examiner can determine whether we are fit and skilled enough to jump with the customer or not.

It's silly to suggest that a non-physician DZO's or I/E's observations or evaluations are sufficient to rule out a significant, but not outwardly-obvious, medical condition.


diablopilot  (D License)

May 5, 2011, 6:24 AM
Post #49 of 102 (1266 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] Why was/is Class 3 Medical For TI [In reply to] Can't Post

You done whining?

It's the minimum you can do for your students. I agree with you, a class 2 would be better, but can you see that happening without the egos of skydiving instructors everywhere exploding?

Hell they lost their minds when we said it'll cost $10 more a year to have a rating.


stayhigh  (F 111)

May 5, 2011, 6:37 AM
Post #50 of 102 (1262 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Why was/is Class 3 Medical For TI [In reply to] Can't Post

Done whinin, hopefully one of my local faa medical examiner picks up their fuckin phone and fill me in for appointment today.
Im sick of hearing, call 911 if it is an emergency, im not at the desk and leave me a message.


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