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Stowless bag packing w/o rig dragging

 

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SethInMI  (A 47765)

May 1, 2011, 6:31 PM
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Stowless bag packing w/o rig dragging Can't Post

I just got a UPT stowless bag, and the recommended way to store the lines involves pulling the rig toward the bag as the lines are figure-8'ed in place.

I don't want to drag the rig, is there anyone who uses a stowless bag and does not drag?

The way I see to do it would be to grab the bag, set it down 18" from the risers and then just figure 8 the resulting pile of lines.

Any confirmation/comments/alternative non-drag methods would be appreciated.

tx


theonlyski  (D License)

May 1, 2011, 6:44 PM
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Re: [SethInMI] Stowless bag packing w/o rig dragging [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The way I see to do it would be to grab the bag, set it down 18" from the risers and then just figure 8 the resulting pile of lines.

Works for me on the last ~100 jumps.Cool

I however only leave about 6-8 inches outside the pocket. No need for all that extra line dancing around your packtray.

And FYI, its SEMI-stowless, if it was fully stowless, you wouldn't have the locking stows Tongue


ETA: remember, your figure 8-s should be progressively smaller, it's recommended in the instructions for it. I believe its so a line doesn't catch the rest and pull them out, but they're out so fast, it would be hard to notice IMO


(This post was edited by theonlyski on May 1, 2011, 6:49 PM)


Squeak  (E 1313)

May 1, 2011, 7:30 PM
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Re: [theonlyski] Stowless bag packing w/o rig dragging [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
ETA: remember, your figure 8-s should be progressively smaller, it's recommended in the instructions for it. I believe its so a line doesn't catch the rest and pull them out, but they're out so fast, it would be hard to notice IMO

If you get a line dump you WILL noticeWink


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
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May 1, 2011, 7:31 PM
Post #4 of 43 (3230 views)
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Re: [SethInMI] Stowless bag packing w/o rig dragging [In reply to] Can't Post

Or you can just buy a drag mat - put the rig on that so that you're dragging the mat not the rig across the floor.


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
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May 1, 2011, 7:47 PM
Post #5 of 43 (3217 views)
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Re: [SethInMI] Stowless bag packing w/o rig dragging [In reply to] Can't Post

After I secure the two locking stows, I walk the bag back to the rig controlling the lines and then figure 8 the lines and place the D bag into the container. Not only does it eliminate the need to pull the rig towards you, I think it is a faster method of doing it. YMMV.


stayhigh  (F 111)

May 1, 2011, 9:52 PM
Post #6 of 43 (3175 views)
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Re: [SethInMI] Stowless bag packing w/o rig dragging [In reply to] Can't Post

I do my first two rubber stow and i stand up and move my whole d bag to the end of riser and figure 8 on top of one another, i don't have time to make my figure 8 progressively smaller. I just figure 8 all on top of the bag and close the tab. And i leave about 3 to 5 inchs of slack between riser and d bag.

Best investment ever. Opens softer and on more on heading.
You do not feel lines snatchung out of rubber bands during deployment. If sigma comes out with stowless d bag, that will be fucking awesome. Mr. Boothe work on that shit.


Rugby82  (D 705310)

May 2, 2011, 12:04 AM
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Re: [stayhigh] Stowless bag packing w/o rig dragging [In reply to] Can't Post

With the mPOD (Magnetic bag) I always use a drag mat, this really works well. When packing outside or at our remote DZ, when not having a drag mat, I'll close the bag and walk it to the rig and than make the figure-8's.


SethInMI  (A 47765)

May 2, 2011, 5:32 AM
Post #8 of 43 (3087 views)
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Re: [LouDiamond] Stowless bag packing w/o rig dragging [In reply to] Can't Post

Scott,

When you "walk the bag back controlling the lines" how exactly are you controlling the lines? Just watching them to make sure you don't step on them? Or doing something active with your hands?

Seth


jtiflyer  (D 27430)

May 2, 2011, 6:24 AM
Post #9 of 43 (3059 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Stowless bag packing w/o rig dragging [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
ETA: remember, your figure 8-s should be progressively smaller, it's recommended in the instructions for it. I believe its so a line doesn't catch the rest and pull them out, but they're out so fast, it would be hard to notice IMO

If you get a line dump you WILL noticeWink

"Line Dump" is when there is slack between the rig and canopy. Lines coming out of the bag quickly is not line dump. Otherwise anybody who has a reserve ride has experienced "Line Dump


jtiflyer  (D 27430)

May 2, 2011, 6:29 AM
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Re: [SethInMI] Stowless bag packing w/o rig dragging [In reply to] Can't Post

As to the OP I get the 2 locking stows and walk the bag right up to the risers and stow the rest.


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
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May 2, 2011, 7:26 AM
Post #11 of 43 (3035 views)
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Re: [SethInMI] Stowless bag packing w/o rig dragging [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Scott,

When you "walk the bag back controlling the lines" how exactly are you controlling the lines? Just watching them to make sure you don't step on them? Or doing something active with your hands?

Seth


Seth, I make sure the lines do not cross or become tangled as I pull the D bag and the lines closer to the rig as I walk it back. You can either do this by placing your body 90 degrees to the rig as you pull the lines in and figure 8 them or you can lift them as you walk back towards the container and set the slack off to one side in a neat pile.


hookitt  (D License)

May 2, 2011, 9:53 AM
Post #12 of 43 (2993 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Stowless bag packing w/o rig dragging [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
ETA: remember, your figure 8-s should be progressively smaller, it's recommended in the instructions for it. I believe its so a line doesn't catch the rest and pull them out, but they're out so fast, it would be hard to notice IMO

If you get a line dump you WILL noticeWink

Nah... He won't notice a thing. The bag is still on the canopy till line stretch so the jumper feels a normal opening. The line stows are only there for line management, not opening management.

If the bag is stripped off prior to line stretch, then it's possible he could experience an abrupt stop but even then, it may just open normal.

There's a picture somewhere of a strong tandem canopy completely out of the bag a few feet off the jumpers back and they experienced a normal opening.

What people blame on line dump is almost always poor canopy and slider management when S folding then stuffing it into the deployment bag.

---
Back to the post, just pick up the bag like you did before and stow the lines without dragging the rig. Just be mindful of how you handle the lines. It's rather easy so you'll figure it out in a pack job or 2.


cderham  (D 29951)

May 2, 2011, 5:28 PM
Post #13 of 43 (2897 views)
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Re: [LouDiamond] Stowless bag packing w/o rig dragging [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
After I secure the two locking stows, I walk the bag back to the rig controlling the lines and then figure 8 the lines and place the D bag into the container. Not only does it eliminate the need to pull the rig towards you, I think it is a faster method of doing it. YMMV.

+1


mjosparky  (D 5476)

May 3, 2011, 3:07 AM
Post #14 of 43 (2831 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Stowless bag packing w/o rig dragging [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
ETA: remember, your figure 8-s should be progressively smaller, it's recommended in the instructions for it. I believe its so a line doesn't catch the rest and pull them out, but they're out so fast, it would be hard to notice IMO

If you get a line dump you WILL noticeWink

You have 2 things going on when you go to open your parachute. One is deployment and the other is inflation. Deployment for simplicity is from the time the bag leaves you back until you have line stretch. Inflation starts when the canopy starts coming out of the bag until you have a full canopy. Basically nothing that happens before the canopy comes out of the bag affect the inflation sequence. Obviously there is a lot more going on during this time but thats about all the average skydiver can digest at one sitting. Line dump on a sports rig is really just an urban legend.
As Hookit said, line stows are there for general housekeeping and neatness.

Sparky


DocPop  (C License)

May 3, 2011, 2:33 PM
Post #15 of 43 (2755 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Stowless bag packing w/o rig dragging [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Line dump on a sports rig is really just an urban legend.
As Hookit said, line stows are there for general housekeeping and neatness.

Sparky

+1

I use large rubber bands and single stow all my non-locking stows. This means that the line is actually loose within the rubber band. I have to take care when putting it in the container but once it's there, the non-locking stows have done their job.

I find my openings have improved a lot since I started doing this. I change my locking stows frequently.

IMO bag strip is the thing to worry about - not line dump.


glgflyer

May 4, 2011, 8:55 AM
Post #16 of 43 (2695 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Stowless bag packing w/o rig dragging [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you use large bands on you locking stows and double wrap them?


(This post was edited by glgflyer on May 4, 2011, 8:57 AM)


DocPop  (C License)

May 4, 2011, 8:57 AM
Post #17 of 43 (2691 views)
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Re: [glgflyer] Stowless bag packing w/o rig dragging [In reply to] Can't Post

No, but I use the small bands so they are tight.


Hellis

May 4, 2011, 9:47 AM
Post #18 of 43 (2675 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Stowless bag packing w/o rig dragging [In reply to] Can't Post

But wouldnt smal rubberbands work on all the stows in that case?
If you have spectralines a smal rubberband will be loose on linestows.

I agree with you that there is a difference between lockingstows and linestows.
Some at my DZ belive that doubble or tripplewrapping stows make softer openings. Crazy
And that the linestows make sure the bag does not open. (no i did not misstype, i know i wrote linestow not lockingstow)

My belief is that as long as the slider stays in place untill linestretch i dont need a bag.
In my opinion (please correct me if im way off) the bag is to make packing easier, keep slider in place, and stow the lines on. It make little effect on "openingshock".


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

May 4, 2011, 9:56 AM
Post #19 of 43 (2669 views)
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Re: [Hellis] Stowless bag packing w/o rig dragging [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

My belief is that as long as the slider stays in place untill linestretch i dont need a bag.
In my opinion (please correct me if im way off) the bag is to make packing easier, keep slider in place, and stow the lines on. It make little effect on "openingshock".

I have to disagree.
Having tried small bands, large bands, double-wrap, triple wrap, single wrap, small bands on locking stows and large bands on linestows, Silibands, TubeStoes, Mpod, and UPT bags....rubber band strength and wrap definitely have played a role in how soft/hard my canopy deploys/opens.

YMMV

I'm now using the UPT system and appreciating it. However, I did have one very hard opening with the UPT system when a packer replaced the locking stowbands with large bands and then double wrapped the locking stows.


DocPop  (C License)

May 4, 2011, 10:06 AM
Post #20 of 43 (2663 views)
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Re: [Hellis] Stowless bag packing w/o rig dragging [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
But wouldnt smal rubberbands work on all the stows in that case?
If you have spectralines a smal rubberband will be loose on linestows.

I agree with you that there is a difference between lockingstows and linestows.
Some at my DZ belive that doubble or tripplewrapping stows make softer openings. Crazy
And that the linestows make sure the bag does not open. (no i did not misstype, i know i wrote linestow not lockingstow)

My belief is that as long as the slider stays in place untill linestretch i dont need a bag.
In my opinion (please correct me if im way off) the bag is to make packing easier, keep slider in place, and stow the lines on. It make little effect on "openingshock".

I could use small bands and single wrap all the stows. However, with this I find that all the stows are loose except those above the cascades (I have 500lb HMA lines). I want them all to be equally loose except the locking stows.

I have not noticed any effect of the stows on opening shock, but a pronounced effect on opening characteristics such as off heading openings. I believe this to be due to the bag bouncing around when too-tight stows are undoing as the bag goes to linestretch.

I think the bag does have a significant role to play in staging the opening in that it keeps everything together until linestretch after which the slider can do its job. Bottom skin inflation (as opposed to inflation of the cells through the nose and crossports) could really get your attnetion.

This is all my own theory though.


(This post was edited by DocPop on May 4, 2011, 10:12 AM)


Hellis

May 4, 2011, 10:09 AM
Post #21 of 43 (2662 views)
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Re: [DSE] Stowless bag packing w/o rig dragging [In reply to] Can't Post

Did you jump each configuration enough to make sure it was not packingrelated? (whats inside the bag)
If you make some difference in the packing before baging it, that could lead to a softer/harder opening too.

Just looking at the physics involved, nothing happens before the canopy has left the bag.
Having supertight doublewraped smal rubberband that takes time to release will only let you fall further before the canopy is open.
?


spootch  (C License)

May 4, 2011, 11:20 AM
Post #22 of 43 (2631 views)
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Re: [Hellis] Stowless bag packing w/o rig dragging [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Did you jump each configuration enough to make sure it was not packingrelated? (whats inside the bag)
If you make some difference in the packing before baging it, that could lead to a softer/harder opening too.

Just looking at the physics involved, nothing happens before the canopy has left the bag.
Having supertight doublewraped smal rubberband that takes time to release will only let you fall further before the canopy is open.
?


Thus slowing down??Smile


mjosparky  (D 5476)

May 4, 2011, 11:52 AM
Post #23 of 43 (2622 views)
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Re: [spootch] Stowless bag packing w/o rig dragging [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Did you jump each configuration enough to make sure it was not packingrelated? (whats inside the bag)
If you make some difference in the packing before baging it, that could lead to a softer/harder opening too.

Just looking at the physics involved, nothing happens before the canopy has left the bag.
Having supertight doublewraped smal rubberband that takes time to release will only let you fall further before the canopy is open.
?


Thus slowing down??Smile

No matter what type of stow bands you use you will not change deployment speed a measurable amount. Using really tight stows will only increase the chance of bag whip and the possibility of line twists. Bags were developed long before they were used on sport rigs. They made it easier to control large cargo type canopies during packing and while placing them in the container. For years personnel rig didnt use a bag but stowed the lines in the pack tray for a canopy first deployment. The lines were stowed to stage the deployment not to meter the inflation. One of the biggest causes of felt snatch force is the wrong size pilot chute. If it is too big it increases the differential speed at line stretch.
Too many people who dont understand the physics of deployment and inflation make assumptions that are just plain wrong. Pretty soon they become fact as in urban legend.

Sparky


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

May 4, 2011, 11:58 AM
Post #24 of 43 (2620 views)
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Re: [Hellis] Stowless bag packing w/o rig dragging [In reply to] Can't Post

I have found that different kinds of stows affect how the lines come off the bag, resulting in a greater propensity for linetwists and/or feeling "jerks" as they come off.
I don't disagree that stow bands are not needed (remember, I jump a "stowless" bag), but I also disagree if someone says that the wraps or type of band has "no affect" on the deployment.
Based on experience, they do affect how the lines affect the bag which in turn affects twists and hard openings.
I've put around a dozen jumps on each various configuration (excepting the Silibands, didn't like those at all).


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
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May 4, 2011, 2:30 PM
Post #25 of 43 (2592 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Stowless bag packing w/o rig dragging [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Too many people who dont understand the physics of deployment and inflation make assumptions that are just plain wrong. Pretty soon they become fact as in urban legend.

After having seen the forces of different types of deployments from personnel to cargo as recorded on a PDAS logger/ strain gauge I have to say that I agree with you on that.


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