Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
1.1:1 wing loading for a novice

 

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waveoff5500  (D 32087)

Apr 26, 2011, 1:49 PM
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1.1:1 wing loading for a novice Can't Post

im kind of in between whether to get a 190 main or a 170 main for my first canopy. i weight 160 without gear so my exit weight would be around 180 lbs. so if i went with a 170 my wingloading would be about 1.05:1 and if i went with a 190 it would be about .96:1. im not super familiar with how much a variation in wingloading can affect performance, so if i went with a 170 and the slightly higher wl would it be that huge of a difference?

thanks!

adam


mchamp  (D 32129)

Apr 26, 2011, 2:02 PM
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Re: [waveoff5500] 1.1:1 wing loading for a novice [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd highly recommend first getting your license prior to thinking about which canopy you'd like to initially purchase.

All in all though your instructors would be great people to ask and talk to about regarding your initial canopy purchase. But both of those wingloadings seem "reasonable" depending on what choice of canopy of course,(but then again I've never seen you fly nor am I an instructor)... Safire2, Spectre, Pulse, Storm, Silhouette etc etc

I know its quite difficult, but highly suggested to wait till you finish and receive your A license. Be safe and have fun!


jrjny  (A License)

Apr 26, 2011, 2:06 PM
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Re: [waveoff5500] 1.1:1 wing loading for a novice [In reply to] Can't Post

Probably won't make a big difference if you always fly well, but if you get into a bit of a hairy situation (which you will of course) it could be the difference between a limpy walk back to the packing mat and getting dragged back.

I started with a .95:1 and it was perfect, 1.1 might have gotten me into trouble a few times looking back on it, all else =.


labrys  (D 29848)

Apr 26, 2011, 2:08 PM
Post #4 of 58 (2483 views)
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Re: [waveoff5500] 1.1:1 wing loading for a novice [In reply to] Can't Post

There's more to it than simple wingloading. The type of canopy makes a difference as well. One style of canopy may have significantly different behavior going from 190 to 170 than another style of canopy.

You'd be best off making this decision with the help of someone who knows you and your canopy piloting abilities and the actual canopies in question when you're closer to getting licensed.

If you're consistently performing well WRT accuracy and landing safely after 20 or so more jumps, 1.05 WL may be fine on a specific type of canopy but may be too dangerous still on another.

Make sense?

ETA: I just checked your profile and see that you jump at my home DZ. There are plenty of people there who can help you make this decision safely so bring it to your instructors there.

Odds are we'll be jumping together soon!


(This post was edited by labrys on Apr 26, 2011, 2:16 PM)


waveoff5500  (D 32087)

Apr 26, 2011, 5:09 PM
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Re: [waveoff5500] 1.1:1 wing loading for a novice [In reply to] Can't Post

alright thanks a lot guys, and im sure ill see you around, as long as we get some good weather soon! haha this weekend is looking partly promising at least :p


AllisonH  (D 29505)

Apr 27, 2011, 11:24 AM
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Re: [waveoff5500] 1.1:1 wing loading for a novice [In reply to] Can't Post

I also recommend actually weighing yourself with skydiving shoes/helmet/altimeter/jumpsuit/rig the size you're thinking about. I suspect you'll find it adds up to 5-10 pounds more than you're allowing.


waveoff5500  (D 32087)

Apr 27, 2011, 12:16 PM
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Re: [AllisonH] 1.1:1 wing loading for a novice [In reply to] Can't Post

good call, ill do that when i have time to borrow my friends icon i5


DocPop  (C License)

Apr 27, 2011, 3:46 PM
Post #8 of 58 (2132 views)
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Re: [waveoff5500] 1.1:1 wing loading for a novice [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't worry too much about the numbers at this stage.

You can't possibly know how the next size down canopy will feel until you jump it - and then you have committed to landing it.

If you get competent and confident on your student canopy and can perform landings under various conditions (see http://www.dropzone.com/...etail_page.cgi?ID=47) then you might be OK to go down to the next size and start learning that one.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Apr 27, 2011, 7:28 PM
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Re: [waveoff5500] 1.1:1 wing loading for a novice [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
ill do that when i have time to borrow my friends icon i5

There's a scale in front of manifest, and a dozen rigs you can use to weigh yourself at the DZ.

Beyond that, what happened to waiting and seeing how things go? Let's get some jumps under your belt and see how you do. If you 'get it' and seem to do well under canopy, maybe you go with the 170. If not, maybe you go with the 190.

Also, there is a 190 student rig at the DZ, and there's no reason you can't jump it provided you prove that you are ready for it (in 15 to 20 jumps). After that, there are plenty of rigs with 170s you can try, again, if you prove you are ready.

The rule of thumb with skydiving gear is to only buy what you are ready to jump on the day of purchase. Never buy anything thinking that you'll be 'ready' for it on a certain date, or that you'll lose weight by a certain date (not that you need to, just an example), because if you don't reach your goal, now you have gear that isn't right for you.

This weekend, mainly Sat, does look good. Make sure you call Garf and let her know you want to jump so she can put you in the schedule. Try to get an early slot (like load #1) so you can make a couple jumps if you want. Sunday looks like shit, so make the most out of Sat.


labrys  (D 29848)

Apr 27, 2011, 7:37 PM
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Re: [davelepka] 1.1:1 wing loading for a novice [In reply to] Can't Post

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After that, there are plenty of rigs with 170s you can try, again, if you prove you are ready.

Mine's a good example.

God knows I don't use it often enough.


millertime24  (C 38793)

Apr 27, 2011, 8:46 PM
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Re: [davelepka] 1.1:1 wing loading for a novice [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The rule of thumb with skydiving gear is to only buy what you are ready to jump on the day of purchase. Never buy anything thinking that you'll be 'ready' for it on a certain date, or that you'll lose weight by a certain date (not that you need to, just an example), because if you don't reach your goal, now you have gear that isn't right for you.

I disagree with this one, and I have personal experience as to why. When I was looking to downsize from my 210 to a 190 I demoed a 190 and loved it. I then purchased one from PD through my DZO. In the 14 weeks it took PD to make my canopy and get it to me, I was already down to jumping a 170. I put 8 jumps on my BRAND NEW 190 then sold it.

to the OP:
Basically, I'm saying dont buy NEW at this stage in your jumping carreer. You MAY end up downsizing faster than you think (or maybe slower which is good too). If you're looking to buy gear make sure its gear you will have in a week or two, and yes, follow Dave's advice on buying what you are willing to jump right now.


Throttlebender  (C 39112)

Apr 27, 2011, 9:43 PM
Post #12 of 58 (2032 views)
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Re: [davelepka] 1.1:1 wing loading for a novice [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
ill do that when i have time to borrow my friends icon i5

There's a scale in front of manifest, and a dozen rigs you can use to weigh yourself at the DZ.

Beyond that, what happened to waiting and seeing how things go? Let's get some jumps under your belt and see how you do. If you 'get it' and seem to do well under canopy, maybe you go with the 170. If not, maybe you go with the 190.

Also, there is a 190 student rig at the DZ, and there's no reason you can't jump it provided you prove that you are ready for it (in 15 to 20 jumps). After that, there are plenty of rigs with 170s you can try, again, if you prove you are ready.

The rule of thumb with skydiving gear is to only buy what you are ready to jump on the day of purchase. Never buy anything thinking that you'll be 'ready' for it on a certain date, or that you'll lose weight by a certain date (not that you need to, just an example), because if you don't reach your goal, now you have gear that isn't right for you.

This weekend, mainly Sat, does look good. Make sure you call Garf and let her know you want to jump so she can put you in the schedule. Try to get an early slot (like load #1) so you can make a couple jumps if you want. Sunday looks like shit, so make the most out of Sat.

Completely agree with Dave on this. And by they way Dave, not that it matters, but your approach on this post was really good. You weren't heavy handed at all. CheersSmile


waveoff5500  (D 32087)

Apr 28, 2011, 2:01 PM
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Re: [davelepka] 1.1:1 wing loading for a novice [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks for the advice dave, its just really exciting at this point and easy to get ahead of yourself haha but youre right, i want to focus on learning right now and worry about gear later. ill cya on saturday if youre there, im gonna call garfield right now to make sure there are instructors there.

thanks again guys!


megamalfunction  (B 35178)

Apr 28, 2011, 2:21 PM
Post #14 of 58 (1890 views)
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Re: [waveoff5500] 1.1:1 wing loading for a novice [In reply to] Can't Post

Is it windy where you jump? If its pretty windy I'd go with the higher wingloading, if its not that windy, I'd go with the lower wingloading.


labrys  (D 29848)

Apr 28, 2011, 2:32 PM
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Re: [megamalfunction] 1.1:1 wing loading for a novice [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Is it windy where you jump? If its pretty windy I'd go with the higher wingloading, if its not that windy, I'd go with the lower wingloading.

Do you think you've given someone good advice just now?

So that when it's not windy, he has a higher wing loading and may be out flying something a tad too speedy?

ETA: What happens when it is windy and he may have to chose (or be in a circumstance where he must) land downwind? Is it a good idea to advise a novice to chose a higher WL under that condition?

Now step back and consider the logic where he chooses something that he can safely fly in the complete range of wind conditions and landing patterns he's likely to encounter.

Is it possible that this is better advice than yours?


(This post was edited by labrys on Apr 28, 2011, 3:29 PM)


megamalfunction  (B 35178)

Apr 28, 2011, 4:10 PM
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Re: [labrys] 1.1:1 wing loading for a novice [In reply to] Can't Post

I know I wouldn't want to be getting blown backwards on a 190 so... yes I think it's good advice. And as for no wind/ down wind conditions ... I think he can handle the 170. I'm loaded at 1.15:1 and I'm not scurrrred!


labrys  (D 29848)

Apr 28, 2011, 4:26 PM
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Re: [megamalfunction] 1.1:1 wing loading for a novice [In reply to] Can't Post

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I know I wouldn't want to be getting blown backwards on a 190 so... yes I think it's good advice.

But you're okay with the idea of landing downwind at your max wind limit on a 170 you might not feel comfortable jumping on a no wind day?

That is essentially what you just recommended.

Have you considered the idea that if a 190 is the only canopy you feel comfortable landing downwind with reasonable enough accuracy to avoid punching a skydiver-shaped hole in the side of someone's barn, maybe you should just sit out the winds that will push you backwards?

Have you considered that it's possible, just possible, that you haven't been exposed to the experiences or training that qualify you to make these kinds of potentially dangerous recommendations to other jumpers?


megamalfunction  (B 35178)

Apr 28, 2011, 4:27 PM
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Re: [labrys] 1.1:1 wing loading for a novice [In reply to] Can't Post

BUT... I have busted my ankle and put bunch of grass stains on my jumpsuit so... maybe you should listen to these old farts ;)


megamalfunction  (B 35178)

Apr 28, 2011, 4:28 PM
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Re: [labrys] 1.1:1 wing loading for a novice [In reply to] Can't Post

If you jump a canopy that has a wingloading lower than 1:1, your going to get blown backwards, period. I know, I used to jump a 200 sq ft. canopy. When was the last time you jumped something lower than a 1:1 ratio? TANDEMS are loaded higher than that!


(This post was edited by megamalfunction on Apr 28, 2011, 4:38 PM)


DocPop  (C License)

Apr 28, 2011, 4:32 PM
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Re: [megamalfunction] 1.1:1 wing loading for a novice [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
BUT... I have busted my ankle and put bunch of grass stains on my jumpsuit so... maybe you should listen to these old farts ;)

Pete?

Is that you?


davelepka  (D 21448)

Apr 28, 2011, 4:33 PM
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Re: [megamalfunction] 1.1:1 wing loading for a novice [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
... I think he can handle the 170.

Based on what? Your experience training and jumping with him? Last time I checked, that's the only way to safely determine what canopy to reccomend to a new jumper.

Beyond that, a newer jumper shouldn't be jumping in the type of winds that would back a jumper up at a .97 WL. If you think it's also advisable to jump in winds where the only thing stopping you from backing up is being one size smaller canopy, then you're cutting it way too close. You should have a much bigger margin for error then that, because if one size bigger will have going backwards, then you're going striaght down on what you are jumping, and that's a sure sign you're jumping in winds that are too high for your equipment.


labrys  (D 29848)

Apr 28, 2011, 4:37 PM
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Re: [megamalfunction] 1.1:1 wing loading for a novice [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
And yes, I will take a downwinder on a windy day and have done so in the past.

And somehow you've come to the conclusion that the OP can too, without ever seeing him land a parachute.

You've followed up on that magical conclusion by making a recommendation to the OP that you have no business making.

Please consider that giving new jumpers bad advice might cause them injury and think about listening more than speaking until you understand the sport a little more.


megamalfunction  (B 35178)

Apr 28, 2011, 4:46 PM
Post #23 of 58 (1826 views)
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Re: [labrys] 1.1:1 wing loading for a novice [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm pretty sure everyone and their mother jumps a Sabre II 170.


megamalfunction  (B 35178)

Apr 28, 2011, 4:47 PM
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Re: [megamalfunction] 1.1:1 wing loading for a novice [In reply to] Can't Post

It's the Honda Accord of canopies.


labrys  (D 29848)

Apr 28, 2011, 5:35 PM
Post #25 of 58 (1810 views)
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Re: [megamalfunction] 1.1:1 wing loading for a novice [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'm pretty sure everyone and their mother jumps a Sabre II 170.

Okay. You've made it abundantly clear that reasonable input asking you to think and act responsibly when giving advice is useless.

I'll try another approach. How 'bout you just shut the fuck up?

I'm also with Doc. That you, Pete?


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