Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
increase turn, add weight or downsize?

 

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Ghost1405  (C License)

Apr 20, 2011, 7:40 AM
Post #1 of 27 (2194 views)
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increase turn, add weight or downsize? Can't Post

Hi I'm currently jumping a Velo 96 loaded at about 1.75 currenlty doing 270s. I've just been reading through the forum but cant really find an answer to my thoughts. I was wondering which direction most people go in from where I am now, is the next step to getting more increasing my turn? so learning 450s? start wearing lead to increase my wingloading? or to downsize? currenlty i'm probably not ready for any of these and advice will be sort from my local canopy coaches before doing anything, I was just wondering what progression people normally do.

Cheers!


FB1609  (C 1409)

Apr 20, 2011, 8:41 AM
Post #2 of 27 (2161 views)
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Re: [Ghost1405] increase turn, add weight or downsize? [In reply to] Can't Post

The next step would be to get a Parafoil 252 and land in full brakes.

Seriously though, you probably won't get much more speed than you are getting now, stay safe.


frost  (D 25011)

Apr 20, 2011, 9:49 AM
Post #3 of 27 (2120 views)
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Re: [Ghost1405] increase turn, add weight or downsize? [In reply to] Can't Post

The way i see it is: a scared pilot on a large canopy doing a small turn. HTFU, Mr. Ghost! If you want to win, you'll have to be ready and willing to do all of the above, there's no other way! Except for asking advice from your local canopy coaches - you should scratch that, they wont tell you anything productive and will only try to hold you back.

P.S. if you were hoping for some serious advice - fill in your profile


Ghost1405  (C License)

Apr 20, 2011, 10:00 AM
Post #4 of 27 (2102 views)
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Re: [frost] increase turn, add weight or downsize? [In reply to] Can't Post

profile amended! didn't realise it wasn't filled out, i dont really post much on here. I appreciate at somepoint no doubt all the of the above will end up happening, i was interested into the progression that most canopy pilots will take and what would be most beneficial for someone like me. I understand at the moment I'm probably not experienced enough to do do any of them but was just seeking knowledge


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Apr 20, 2011, 10:15 AM
Post #5 of 27 (2097 views)
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Re: [Ghost1405] increase turn, add weight or downsize? [In reply to] Can't Post

Couple of questions:

1) How would you rate your current consistency
2) What criteria have you defined to rate the above.
3) What are your canopy pilot goals?

Blues,
Ian


d100965  (D 100965)

Apr 20, 2011, 11:53 AM
Post #6 of 27 (2070 views)
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Re: [Ghost1405] increase turn, add weight or downsize? [In reply to] Can't Post

Have you been training your current 270 on gates?
Have you done any training on a pond yet?
Have you taken your current 270 to competition yet?

I take it that it's a no for competition as the BPA requires you to have 1000 jumps.
Are you CP2 yet then?

Sorry for all the questions but there's so much you can do first before downsizing, adding weight or increasing your turn.

All of the above will really show you whether or not your turn is as sorted as you think.

Go to Nethers and use Team Heats electronic gates (which I made) or go to Empuria and train on Brians electronic gates, (did I mention I made them as well?)
Then go to Lillo and train on their pond under Pablo.
Then go to RAPA and do the UK CP National competition.
Being on the Swoop circuit will open your eyes so much!!


(This post was edited by d100965 on Apr 20, 2011, 12:14 PM)


frost  (D 25011)

Apr 20, 2011, 1:30 PM
Post #7 of 27 (2034 views)
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Re: [Ghost1405] increase turn, add weight or downsize? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hi I'm currently jumping a Velo 96 loaded at about 1.75 currenlty doing 270s. ... I was wondering which direction most people go in from where I am now, is the next step to getting more increasing my turn? so learning 450s? start wearing lead to increase my wingloading? or to downsize?

At this point, vast majority of the people would be downsizing. Then increasing the turn.

You are currently on a pretty "docile" wingloading, well within your experience level. Dropping a size and figuring things out, then repeating the process two more times is not a bad idea. By then you'll be in the "fun to fly" category and still be on the safe side as far as recommended jump experience.

Then figure out what you want to do with the new skills. It ain't all about gates and competition, trust me.


d100965  (D 100965)

Apr 21, 2011, 12:13 AM
Post #8 of 27 (1923 views)
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Re: [frost] increase turn, add weight or downsize? [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree, it is not all about gates and competition....

But it is about making sure you've got everything out of your current canopy before moving on.

I'll bet money no jumper in the UK with less than 1000 jumps can truly say they have their 270 perfect, so there's nothing left to do now except downsize, add weight or increase their turn.
I think not.

Let's wait and see as to where the OP thinks he currently is.

You are right though, MOST people would now downsize to a 90. Take that wingloading up to 2 and hit the sweet spot. Doesn't make it right though.
But no-one has seen this guy fly so only his local coaches can suggest or discourage that.

Can I ask the OP what your turn height is for your 270?


LetsGoOutside  (D License)

Apr 21, 2011, 12:04 PM
Post #9 of 27 (1823 views)
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Re: [Ghost1405] increase turn, add weight or downsize? [In reply to] Can't Post

The 96 is a great size of wing, so you'll probably want to add weight to get to 1.9:1 - 2:1 and stick to 270s for now. When you're nailing 270s there, you'll want to consider a smaller wing (especially if you only load a 96 at 1.75 without weight). If you're really consistent and current with 270s at a 2:1+ WL, that's when you'll start finding more performance from the higher rotation turns.

That's not a universal approach for those reading this, but it's what I'd do in your situation. Safely graduate towards the Velo's optimum WL and then start rinsing it.

Edited to add: This is all assuming you're current, heads up and all. I'd wager you've got some work to do if you're under 1K jumps on a Velo.


(This post was edited by LetsGoOutside on Apr 21, 2011, 12:06 PM)


AggieDave  (D License)

Apr 21, 2011, 5:05 PM
Post #10 of 27 (1776 views)
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Re: [LetsGoOutside] increase turn, add weight or downsize? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This is all assuming you're current, heads up and all. I'd wager you've got some work to do if you're under 1K jumps on a Velo.

I have a decent number of jumps under Velo 120, 111 and a 103 (mostly on a 111). I've stayed on 270s on the 111 because every year I'm making the turn better and learning more and more, while getting more and more out of it.

It's crazy how really little details make a HUGE difference when you're rolling out of your turn( and are loaded above 2.6).

It doesn't matter if you do a 1,000,000 degree turn if you roll out soft, vert the gates and blow out zone 8.Laugh

Or if you're like me, you roll out low, get excited, push out too hard, vert the gates and crash into a mud puddle.Pirate


morris

Apr 21, 2011, 11:01 PM
Post #11 of 27 (1739 views)
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Re: [d100965] increase turn, add weight or downsize? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Go to Nethers and use Team Heats electronic gates (which I made) or go to Empuria and train on Brians electronic gates, (did I mention I made them as well?)
No, you didnt!
But by the way how well do they work and how much did you charge forem?
Quote:
Then go to Lillo and train on their pond under Pablo.
But before you do that, get in touch and make sure they are willing to fill up the pond for you, it is almost ever empty and will be empty for sure, if you are just showing up there, coming with a whole group will raise your chances.


rem

Apr 22, 2011, 4:03 AM
Post #12 of 27 (1717 views)
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Re: [morris] increase turn, add weight or downsize? [In reply to] Can't Post

Lillo fill the pond last week,
(but hot weather come, it will empty soon?)
so, buy a JVX 75, add 8 pounds, and do a 630!
for sure start higher, but finish Hard and Low...


(This post was edited by rem on Apr 22, 2011, 4:09 AM)


superstu  (D License)

Apr 22, 2011, 10:20 AM
Post #13 of 27 (1663 views)
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Re: [Ghost1405] increase turn, add weight or downsize? [In reply to] Can't Post

This question is really no different than someone looking to change things up under a larger canopy.

The first step is to define your goals
- What do you want to do in the future? Compete? Beer line swoop? What?
- What flight characteristics are you looking for?

For me personally i'd stay under the same canopy doing the same turn and really dial it in. If you are very comfortable in all conditions then add a little weight to give you a taste of what it's like to fly at a higher loading, 5-10pounds max.

Change only one thing at a time.

When you do end up downsizing go back to wearing no weight and doing 270's.

That is what I would do personally, but I have never seen you fly and don't know where you're at in the whole scheme of things.

stu


d100965  (D 100965)

Apr 23, 2011, 8:08 AM
Post #14 of 27 (1601 views)
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Re: [morris] increase turn, add weight or downsize? [In reply to] Can't Post

Good catch on the Lillo pond, forgot they promise to fill it up but some how the pumps always broken when you get there! Still, some coaching from Pablo is always invaluable!
Has Nethers got it's pond yet?
And if you want a set of my gates, tough, you can't afford them!Wink Actually, Facebook me as i've recently made a new spare set which are available.
Anyway, sorry to hijack this thread but a lots been said already and our OP seems to have gone quiet.


(This post was edited by d100965 on Apr 23, 2011, 8:10 AM)


Mike.d  (C 107643)

Apr 23, 2011, 11:19 AM
Post #15 of 27 (1582 views)
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Re: [d100965] increase turn, add weight or downsize? [In reply to] Can't Post

D100965 What the cost of a set of electronic gates? Sorry if a little of topic, but i jump at BK and the pond is in some dire need of some TLC, as i not the standard of the one at RAPA that i cleaned on a number of times as i worked for paul moore when he ran the place. But the one here is begging to be used.


Ghost1405  (C License)

Apr 25, 2011, 7:20 AM
Post #16 of 27 (1469 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] increase turn, add weight or downsize? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Couple of questions:

1) How would you rate your current consistency
2) What criteria have you defined to rate the above.
3) What are your canopy pilot goals?

Blues,
Ian

Ok i'm gonna try and answer everyone's questions

just to clarify what I said in my original post. I know that at this moment in time I am probably not ready for any of the options I have mentioned. I will seek advice from a canopy coach who can watch me and advise me on my progression. my question was a querey as i was interested in the route that people have taken, especially those who started out in a similar position to myself.

Ian - I'm not really sure how i'd describe my consistancy, I can hit gates probably 70% of the time. My goals are that I want to be able to get the absolute maximum out of my canopy but I would also like to be able to compete and actually be competitive.

Quote:
Have you been training your current 270 on gates?
Have you done any training on a pond yet?
Have you taken your current 270 to competition yet?

yes, yes, and yes although not a great deal and have only competed once, i scored on 4 out of 6 rounds and hit the entry gates every time. didn't do that well though. i would like to be able to compete in bpa events (need to check my logbook) but i'd like to give CP2 a go

Frost - I am aware that I am on a docile wingloading for such a canopy which is what i guess founded my questions originally

d100965 - i agree with what your saying and my no means is my turn perfect and as i've said early at the moment i just had a querey as to the route people take, I am not saying "i am an awesome swooper and want to do something else, tell me what to do" I am interested as to the progression route people take and the reasons why. my height for a 270 is 830ft

letsgooutside - see already i've had one person say add weight and the other say downsize to achieve an optimum wingloading.. what are the pros and cons of each?

superstu - i am happy landing my canopy doing a 270 in all conditions, i have safely landed it in 18 knts downwind and crosswind (didn't stand it up though but was a controlled landing)

sorry for the late reply, have been sans internet for a few days!! hope this answers some questions


Ghost1405  (C License)

Apr 25, 2011, 7:23 AM
Post #17 of 27 (1468 views)
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Re: [d100965] increase turn, add weight or downsize? [In reply to] Can't Post

what's your name on fb? I know someone who'd be interested in your gates


d100965  (D 100965)

Apr 25, 2011, 7:59 AM
Post #18 of 27 (1462 views)
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Re: [Ghost1405] increase turn, add weight or downsize? [In reply to] Can't Post

PM Sent.


Ghost1405  (C License)

Apr 25, 2011, 8:02 AM
Post #19 of 27 (1460 views)
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Re: [d100965] increase turn, add weight or downsize? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
PM Sent.

i cant find you, your name doesnt come up when i search for it, send me a link to your profile?


d100965  (D 100965)

Apr 25, 2011, 10:45 AM
Post #20 of 27 (1430 views)
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Re: [Ghost1405] increase turn, add weight or downsize? [In reply to] Can't Post

PM sent


LetsGoOutside  (D License)

Apr 25, 2011, 2:35 PM
Post #21 of 27 (1383 views)
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Re: [Ghost1405] increase turn, add weight or downsize? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
letsgooutside - see already i've had one person say add weight and the other say downsize to achieve an optimum wingloading.. what are the pros and cons of each?
An 84 loaded at 2:1 isn't the same as a 96 at 2:1. They're close, but the 84 will feel a bit faster on the controls and provide a hint less lift and more dive than the 96 at the same WL. Slight difference, but probably enough that you'll want to get more out of the 96 with slow weight increments than with a downsize for the sake of safety and general technique development.




superstu  (D License)

Apr 26, 2011, 7:36 AM
Post #23 of 27 (1284 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] increase turn, add weight or downsize? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Downsize$$$
Weight$$
Increasing turn rate$

Do as your finance will take you.

uhhhh, not exactly


davelepka  (D 21448)

Apr 26, 2011, 7:53 AM
Post #24 of 27 (1282 views)
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Re: [Ghost1405] increase turn, add weight or downsize? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
My goals are that I want to be able to get the absolute maximum out of my canopy but I would also like to be able to compete and actually be competitive.

Getting the most out of your canopy - this takes jumps, plain and simple. The more you change canopies or WL, the less you will 'know' about your canopy. Stop paying attention to what other people are jumping, or what WL, and just pick a canopy and stick with it for 1000 jumps. You'll be a pro by the time you're done.

Competition - the only way to be competitive is to actually compete. Plan on losing in the beginning. You'll be dead last a bunch of times before you learn the in's and out's of competition, but that's how you learn. Again, don't be worried about what other people are doing, try competing against yourself at first. Track you results from one comp or training session to the next, and if you see improvement, then you're winning.

You're on a good wing at a good WL. It's high enough that you can get some good swoops out of it, and low enough that you can easily jump that same canopy on every jump without worries about long spots or landing off. Don't get caught up in the idea that you HAVE to jump this canopy at that WL because this guy or that guy is doing it, just jump your own jump and fly your own canopy for your own purposes.


LetsGoOutside  (D License)

Apr 26, 2011, 12:03 PM
Post #25 of 27 (1260 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] increase turn, add weight or downsize? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Downsize$$$
Weight$$
Increasing turn rate$

Do as your finance will take you.

You forgot to factor in hospital bills.


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