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A Solution for Current Canopy Collisions and Canopy Related Deaths/Injuries

 

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in2jumping  (C License)

Apr 17, 2011, 9:49 AM
Post #1 of 153 (3989 views)
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A Solution for Current Canopy Collisions and Canopy Related Deaths/Injuries Can't Post

1) Require a fairly extensive canopy training course for the A license.

This would fill current non-existing canopy training gap and would start new skydivers off with a solid canopy control foundation.

2) Implement Brian Germain's downsizing chart as a BSR.

Would help slow down the existing out of control downsizing trend, would assist in reducing number of jumpers flying around with their heads up their ass because they can barely control their canopy and would reduce number of non CC canopy injuries and deaths.

3) Implement a NO passing rule, lower canopy has the “right of way” and you must not over take them.

Greatly reduces chances of canopy collisions.

4) Segregate canopy landing areas by wing loading. Split landing areas into two, fast canopies land over here slower canopies land over here.

Reduces the chance of canopies overtaking each other, enhances separation and helps with the current problem of wide varying canopy speeds.

5) Ban all HP landings (AKA swooping) on normal skydives and put into place rules that minimize any turns (must fly a standard pattern). Require a separate isolated pass for any type of HP landing.

This would suck for swoopers but when 62% of the canopy collisions over the last 20 years involved HP landings and with swooping only making up a small portion of the sport, something needs to be done here.


DocPop  (C License)

Apr 17, 2011, 9:58 AM
Post #2 of 153 (3952 views)
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Re: [in2jumping] A Solution for Current Canopy Collisions and Canopy Related Deaths/Injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Require...Implement...rule...Segregate...Ban

Your solution requires a lot more regulations. I am not sure this is the answer. I would propose more enforcement of existing regulations.

Of course, until Perris release the facts of these last two incidents it is going to be hard to truly know what would have prevented them.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Apr 17, 2011, 11:35 AM
Post #3 of 153 (3903 views)
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Re: [DocPop] A Solution for Current Canopy Collisions and Canopy Related Deaths/Injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I would propose more enforcement of existing regulations.

Enforcement of which regulations exactly?


airtwardo  (D License)

Apr 17, 2011, 12:09 PM
Post #4 of 153 (3882 views)
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Re: [Remster] A Solution for Current Canopy Collisions and Canopy Related Deaths/Injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I would propose more enforcement of existing regulations.

Enforcement of which regulations exactly?


"Don't do nuthin' dumb" Wink


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Apr 17, 2011, 12:16 PM
Post #5 of 153 (3877 views)
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Re: [in2jumping] A Solution for Current Canopy Collisions and Canopy Related Deaths/Injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

For #3 to be even sorta kinda achievable, you'd have to significantly narrow the range of wingloadings on a particular load or start doing exit order in order of wingloading. Crazy It's not at all unusual to have wingloadings ranging from 0.8 to over 2.0 on a single load and those jumpers are scattered throughout the exit order.


AggieDave  (D License)

Apr 17, 2011, 6:02 PM
Post #6 of 153 (3778 views)
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Re: [in2jumping] A Solution for Current Canopy Collisions and Canopy Related Deaths/Injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

The solution is a fundamental shift in what is considered acceptable by the general jumping public. It takes the long-time jumpers and DZ staff to set the example, though.

For instance, how many people in the sport think it is cool to suck it down for a low pull? How many people widely accept big-low toggle hook turns?

It takes a shift in which people who fly their canopy unsafely are shunned and treated as outcasts.

That isn't just wanna-be swoopers (real swoopers don't swoop in traffic). This is also the old RW-guys on Stilettos flying like crap through a pattern. This is also the low time jumpers who think it is cool to spiral their canopy down. This includes a LOT of people.

Training won't fix attitudes. BSR's won't fix acceptance. FAA can/will fix it all and we won't jump like we do anymore!


Deisel  (D 31661)

Apr 17, 2011, 7:12 PM
Post #7 of 153 (3739 views)
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Re: [in2jumping] A Solution for Current Canopy Collisions and Canopy Related Deaths/Injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

So who would enforce any of this? And what happens to someone that violates these or any other rule?


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Apr 17, 2011, 7:38 PM
Post #8 of 153 (3719 views)
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Re: [in2jumping] A Solution for Current Canopy Collisions and Canopy Related Deaths/Injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
1) Require a fairly extensive canopy training course for the A license.

Some would already argue that there is a fair amount of canopy training required in order to get your a.

In reply to:
2) Implement Brian Germain's downsizing chart as a BSR.

The problem with this is that it's extremely difficult to enforce and some people actually should be allowed to fly at higher loadings with the correct training. Think about this: what happens when you're loaded at 1.3 at 300 jumps and over winter you put on 15 pounds? Who's to know? What about wearing weights? It's just really difficult to enforce.

In reply to:
3) Implement a NO passing rule, lower canopy has the “right of way” and you must not over take them.

Completely impractical. Even if your previous recommendations were taken into account, you're still going to have people loaded a lot higher coming in behind others and the fact of the matter is that we're flying gravity powered gliders, hanging in brakes won't always work or be any safer.

In reply to:
4) Segregate canopy landing areas by wing loading. Split landing areas into two, fast canopies land over here slower canopies land over here.

Pretty much already in place when it comes to swoop landings and may not be having the desired affect. This might be worth pursuing but then you end up with a problem with HP landings and regular landings in the same area again. Just because someone is loading their canopy, does that mean they need to land with swoopers? Maybe 3 landing areas would be in order but where do you go to learn to swoop? There are a lot of competing interests that need to be considered. Some people are going to lose out (maybe me) but that's better than killing someone or being killed.

In reply to:
5) Ban all HP landings (AKA swooping) on normal skydives and put into place rules that minimize any turns (must fly a standard pattern). Require a separate isolated pass for any type of HP landing.

According to the USPA group member pledge, all DZs must have a separate landing area for swooping, turns greater than X (depends on the DZ) are not permitted in the main area. Problem is that by lack of enforcement, they still happen and even if they weren't what's to stop people colliding when swooping?

We're all people, we make mistakes, I'm not sure there's any way to rule out deaths under canopies no matter how well they're flying at the time. I think that if we take the time to enforce the separate HP landing area and stop people swooping through the regular pattern, that'd go some way to making us safer I think. Who does the enforcement? We do. If you see something shitty going on then call it out. I have and I've been called out when I've made a mistake.

The fact is, like DocPop said, we still don't know what the scenario was in either of the incidents at Perris, until we find out that there was some flagrant abuse of the rules then demanding the rules be changed doesn't make a lot of sense. We need to think about what is going on and make a reasoned effort to resolve issues that we can, not knee-jerk and throw more rules at something that we can't even define.

Obviously this is the opinion of someone with only 400 jumps, who jumps at the Ranch no less (lol) so take it for what it's worth.


Throttlebender  (C 39112)

Apr 17, 2011, 8:23 PM
Post #9 of 153 (3686 views)
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Re: [in2jumping] A Solution for Current Canopy Collisions and Canopy Related Deaths/Injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Slightly different track on the topic, but what about canopy colors?
I've been thinking about this a bit lately. My wife flies a dark purple(eggplant) canopy and I actually have a difficult time finding her if she is below me. I bought a used canopy that has a black topskin which is also obviously quite difficult to spot against ground clutter.
For those jumping in desert areas this might not be as much of an issue, but here in Ohio, I can state with confidence that these darker colors are challenging to spot against dark green foliage.
I like a sexy custom colored canopy as much as anyone, but perhaps marketing bright, highly visible canopies would aid in the solution.
Do we know what colors the lower jumpers in these recent accidents were flying?


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Apr 17, 2011, 9:00 PM
Post #10 of 153 (3667 views)
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Re: [Throttlebender] A Solution for Current Canopy Collisions and Canopy Related Deaths/Injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I like a sexy custom colored canopy as much as anyone, but perhaps marketing bright, highly visible canopies would aid in the solution.

My first two canopies were bought used. Did about 200 jumps on a Spectre with black/blackberry (purple) and teal. That one wasn't too bad. Then I bought a Pilot that was black with red ribs. Putting 300+ jumps on that convinced me of one thing - I don't ever want to buy another dark canopy. That thing could go into stealth mode.

My current canopy was bought new and I picked orange and yellow so I'd be highly visible. Smile It's not all matchy-matchy with my gear, but those colors might just help keep me alive.


(This post was edited by NWFlyer on Apr 17, 2011, 9:25 PM)


Throttlebender  (C 39112)

Apr 17, 2011, 9:21 PM
Post #11 of 153 (3658 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] A Solution for Current Canopy Collisions and Canopy Related Deaths/Injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

That pretty much my line of thinking. I just bought my canopy and am not willing to part with it quite yet, but I can assure you that my next will be as bright as I can possibly imagine. I'll of course try and design it with as much swagger as I can muster, but am definitely seeing the overall benefits of being HIGHLY visibleWink


Beachbum  (B License)

Apr 17, 2011, 9:37 PM
Post #12 of 153 (3650 views)
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Re: [in2jumping] A Solution for Current Canopy Collisions and Canopy Related Deaths/Injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

#3 ... others have mentioned wing loading disparity, but also, some canopies are just flat faster. I fly a 7 cell (Triathlon), and I think that almost any 9 cell at a reasonable loading will overtake me!


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Apr 18, 2011, 1:29 AM
Post #13 of 153 (3611 views)
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Re: [in2jumping] A Solution for Current Canopy Collisions and Canopy Related Deaths/Injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
1) Require a fairly extensive canopy training course for the A license.

This would fill current non-existing canopy training gap and would start new skydivers off with a solid canopy control foundation.

2) Implement Brian Germain's downsizing chart as a BSR.

Would help slow down the existing out of control downsizing trend, would assist in reducing number of jumpers flying around with their heads up their ass because they can barely control their canopy and would reduce number of non CC canopy injuries and deaths.

3) Implement a NO passing rule, lower canopy has the “right of way” and you must not over take them.

Greatly reduces chances of canopy collisions.

4) Segregate canopy landing areas by wing loading. Split landing areas into two, fast canopies land over here slower canopies land over here.

Reduces the chance of canopies overtaking each other, enhances separation and helps with the current problem of wide varying canopy speeds.

5) Ban all HP landings (AKA swooping) on normal skydives and put into place rules that minimize any turns (must fly a standard pattern). Require a separate isolated pass for any type of HP landing.

This would suck for swoopers but when 62% of the canopy collisions over the last 20 years involved HP landings and with swooping only making up a small portion of the sport, something needs to be done here.
There is no solution fits all cases.


thrillstalker  (C 40678)

Apr 18, 2011, 7:50 AM
Post #14 of 153 (3503 views)
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Re: [in2jumping] A Solution for Current Canopy Collisions and Canopy Related Deaths/Injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

1. i agree, stf now includes a flight one canopy course with the a license package. it is not required, but it's a start.

2. more rules... i think this will just piss a lot of people off. holding everyone's hand who flies a canopy is going to be a lot of time and effort for the person who has to do it.

3. seems like having to fly in brakes to avoid passing someone in the landing pattern might cause more harm than good.

4. if the lz is big enough go for it.

5. this would cost the dz a whole bunch of money. a go around cost around $150 in an otter.

maybe only allow swooping from hop n pops??? this could separate hp from traditional landings without costing the dz any money.


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Apr 18, 2011, 8:14 AM
Post #15 of 153 (3489 views)
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Re: [in2jumping] A Solution for Current Canopy Collisions and Canopy Related Deaths/Injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
1) Require a fairly extensive canopy training course for the A license.

Better would be to require that every jumper, regardless of experience, take a basic survival skills course. Personally, I think this could be a B license thing; let's not make the A license even more expensive to get to.

In reply to:
2) Implement Brian Germain's downsizing chart as a BSR.

Some folks have been asking for that for damn near ten years now. Don't hold your breath.

In reply to:
3) Implement a NO passing rule, lower canopy has the “right of way” and you must not over take them.

What if the lower canopy is very lightly loaded and your canopy is fairly highly loaded? How are you going to keep from overtaking them?

In reply to:
4) Segregate canopy landing areas by wing loading. Split landing areas into two, fast canopies land over here slower canopies land over here.

USPA group member dz's have already pledged to do this.

In reply to:
5) Ban all HP landings (AKA swooping) on normal skydives and put into place rules that minimize any turns (must fly a standard pattern). Require a separate isolated pass for any type of HP landing.

In the past two and a half years, I have personal knowledge of two canopy collisions that occurred shortly after break off from RW jumps; I even got to watch one of them go in. Both collisions occurred on skydives larger than a 4 way.

There have also been fatalities at many recent big way events. While they were "caused" by a variety of things (gear issues, medical problems), they all happened at big way events. It's possible that big ways are too stressful, causing heart attacks and equipment malfunctions.

Should we ban groups larger than a 4 way because 100% of the above incidents occurred on skydives larger than a 4 way?

Us versus them solves nothing - you only have to look at the US government to figure that out. The only solution that is going to work long term is one that is worked out cooperatively, with input from everybody involved.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 18, 2011, 8:17 AM
Post #16 of 153 (3487 views)
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Re: [in2jumping] A Solution for Current Canopy Collisions and Canopy Related Deaths/Injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

>1) Require a fairly extensive canopy training course for the A license.

Good idea, although splitting it between A, B and C might allow a more comprehensive course at each level.

>3) Implement a NO passing rule, lower canopy has the “right of way” and you must not
>over take them.

Can't see how this can work. Let's say you have three groups:

1) 8-way. Camera guy has a 2:1 loaded canopy. Jumpers range from 2:1 to .8:1.

2) 8-way, no camera. 2:1 to .8:1 loadings.

3) Freeflyers. Loadings range from 2.5 to 1 to 1.6 to 1.

How do you put them out safely?

>4) Segregate canopy landing areas by wing loading. Split landing areas into two, fast
>canopies land over here slower canopies land over here.

Not a bad idea.

>5) Ban all HP landings (AKA swooping) on normal skydives and put into place rules
>that minimize any turns (must fly a standard pattern). Require a separate isolated
>pass for any type of HP landing.

Also a good idea. A separate jump run is the only way I can think of to guarantee that a straight-in jumper will not be taken out by a swooper.


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Apr 18, 2011, 8:23 AM
Post #17 of 153 (3479 views)
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Re: [billvon] A Solution for Current Canopy Collisions and Canopy Related Deaths/Injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A separate jump run is the only way I can think of to guarantee that a straight-in jumper will not be taken out by a swooper.

How can that guarantee that I'm not going to be taken out by some non-swooper spiraling into the pattern? Or by someone turning 90 degrees into me?


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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Apr 18, 2011, 8:32 AM
Post #18 of 153 (3474 views)
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Re: [skybytch] A Solution for Current Canopy Collisions and Canopy Related Deaths/Injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
How can that guarantee that I'm not going to be taken out by some non-swooper spiraling into the pattern? Or by someone turning 90 degrees into me?

You can't, but then again people don't want to hear that. They want to believe they're perfectly safe if they make this "someone else's problem".

Hell, I watched 2 tandems almost have a collision because of poor pattern flight and, on the same day, I watched standard large canopy traffic, all flying patterns, intersect one another at various points on their base and final legs - at least one being within 50 feet of the other, and both oblivious to one another. To top it all off we had two tandems land in the high performance area (for no good reason), right in front of the swoop entry gates.

Ian


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Apr 18, 2011, 9:34 AM
Post #19 of 153 (3431 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] A Solution for Current Canopy Collisions and Canopy Related Deaths/Injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You can't, but then again people don't want to hear that. They want to believe they're perfectly safe if they make this "someone else's problem".

Exactly. Banning swooping or limiting it to specific times or passes isn't going to keep me safe while flying my traditional pattern, no matter how much I'd like to put my head back into the sand.

Landing is a team sport. Let's all be on the same team.


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Apr 18, 2011, 10:03 AM
Post #20 of 153 (3413 views)
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Re: [skybytch] A Solution for Current Canopy Collisions and Canopy Related Deaths/Injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
You can't, but then again people don't want to hear that. They want to believe they're perfectly safe if they make this "someone else's problem".

Exactly. Banning swooping or limiting it to specific times or passes isn't going to keep me safe while flying my traditional pattern, no matter how much I'd like to put my head back into the sand.

Landing is a team sport. Let's all be on the same team.

Closest call I've had so far was with someone else doing a traditional pattern. It's not just a high-performance landing problem.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Apr 18, 2011, 1:52 PM
Post #21 of 153 (3355 views)
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Re: [skybytch] A Solution for Current Canopy Collisions and Canopy Related Deaths/Injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

>How can that guarantee that I'm not going to be taken out by some non-swooper
>spiraling into the pattern?

By enforcing a no-more-than-90-degree turn rule in the pattern (as Perris is now doing.)

>Or by someone turning 90 degrees into me?

Someone turning 90 degrees at a time is not a swooper.

Are you asking "how can I protect myself from being killed by someone trying to kill me under canopy?" If so the answer is "you can't."


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Apr 18, 2011, 2:34 PM
Post #22 of 153 (3335 views)
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Re: [billvon] A Solution for Current Canopy Collisions and Canopy Related Deaths/Injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Or by someone turning 90 degrees into me?

Someone turning 90 degrees at a time is not a swooper.

Right. But s/he can still kill me.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Apr 18, 2011, 5:47 PM
Post #23 of 153 (3284 views)
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Re: [skybytch] A Solution for Current Canopy Collisions and Canopy Related Deaths/Injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

>Right. But s/he can still kill me.

Absolutely. And they can do that in freefall, under canopy or after landing. Heck, they don't even have to be skydiving to kill you.

But to get back to the original issue - the only way you can guarantee that you will not be taken out by someone doing a high performance landing is to ensure that the people doing high performance landings are separated in time and distance from you. That's why separate jump runs (and separate landing areas) can reduce collisions.

It's not a complete solution to the problem of people killing you; nothing is. But it will help reduce accidents like the ones we've seen over the past few weeks.


(This post was edited by billvon on Apr 18, 2011, 5:47 PM)


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Apr 18, 2011, 6:39 PM
Post #24 of 153 (3270 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] A Solution for Current Canopy Collisions and Canopy Related Deaths/Injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
3) Implement a NO passing rule, lower canopy has the right of way and you must not over take them.

Are we going to implement this with a ban on canopies loaded over 1.2 pounds per square foot? That's as about as high as you can go and be guaranteed not to over-take some one jumping classic accuracy wing loadings who refrains from braked approaches.


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Apr 19, 2011, 6:47 AM
Post #25 of 153 (3190 views)
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Re: [billvon] A Solution for Current Canopy Collisions and Canopy Related Deaths/Injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It's not a complete solution to the problem of people killing you; nothing is. But it will help reduce accidents like the ones we've seen over the past few weeks.

Rumor has it that Friday's incident was a 90 degree turn.

The "original issue" is not swoopers killing non-swoopers. The original issue is skydivers dying in canopy collisions. Regardless of how the people involved were landing. A skydiver is a skydiver. A canopy collision is a canopy collision. Dead is dead.

Landing is a team sport, and swoopers and non-swoopers are not on opposing teams. We are all on the same team. The opponent is the possibility of a collision, not the people who land differently than I do.


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