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Argus Investigation - San Marcos

 

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dgermano  (D License)

Apr 14, 2011, 7:38 AM
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Argus Investigation - San Marcos Can't Post

Just got this email from argus-aad.com:
Quote:
Dear Skydiver,
Re: Argus Cutter investigation - Incident San Marcos TX

Skydive Supplies Europe was asked to investigate the cutter involved in the so called `San Marcos incident.

The result of this investigation is published in the enclosed PDF-file



The initial inspection revealed a pinched loop that was cut on one side, and not cut on the other side. There were some loop fibers visible on the cut side.

After opening a steel ball fell out of the cutter. This looks like a small steel ball, as used in shot bags.
The cutter blade also showed a deformation at the place of the loop and was damaged in use.

The blade could not perform its full stroke and thus not cut the loop completely.
The loop material could not have caused any damage to the hardened stainless steel blade.

Enjoy the reading.

Link to the investigation report:
http://tools.emailgarage.com/...;MessageId=509493486

Anyone have more insight on this?


IanHarrop  (C 1152)

Apr 14, 2011, 7:49 AM
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Re: [dgermano] Argus Investigation - San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

Already being discussed.

Start reading here: http://www.dropzone.com/...post=4097878#4097878


(This post was edited by IanHarrop on Apr 14, 2011, 7:49 AM)


rhys  (D 95)

Apr 14, 2011, 2:54 PM
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Re: [IanHarrop] Argus Investigation - San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

Lets talk in this thread about why this rig was withheld from the manufacturer, why the ban on argus was so prompt and well organised, and why other manufacturers did not recieve the same attention/punishment when their units were failing as a direct result of faulty components.

There has been serious allegations by Aviacom and with the discovery of a foreign object in the cutter renders the PIA service bulliten incorrect, abrupt and damging to the industry..

We could jam a piece of metal in a cypres cutter too, would all cypres' be grounded.

I suspect as aviacom do, something more sinister than a simple misunderstanding, that rig was withheld from aviacom for a reason and meanwhile aviacom have received the most damaging blow any manufacturer can receive.

Why is the attention always away from evident corruption and on semantics and moot points...

The removal of all argii would have created a very large gap in an expensive market...

If there is something sinister about this ordeal, lets not just let them get away with it! If there is info lets find out, the PIA is formed of companies that agree with one another or at least work together.

If it is anything whatsoever like the NZPIA then anti competitive behaviour is not only in their interests, but it is their forte and reason for existence.

I dont want to accuse the PIA they may well have been acting in our best interests, but I do want to suspect them based on what we know, I can imagine the feet will be dragging when it comes to removing the bulletin, yet it was carried out and introduced very swiftly.

According to what we have been told the entity that withheld the evidence is in cahoots with the PIA and the PIA made the announcement.

Can anybody clarify this?


(This post was edited by rhys on Apr 14, 2011, 3:03 PM)




Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 14, 2011, 3:19 PM
Post #5 of 116 (3384 views)
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Re: [rhys] Argus Investigation - San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

>and why other manufacturers did not recieve the same attention/punishment
>when their units were failing as a direct result of faulty components.

They did. Jo got in a shouting match with a rig manufacturer at one PIA, and they were close to disallowing the install of the Vigil due to the problems it was causing in rigs. (This was the "cutter damaging closing loops" issue.) Jo was claiming quite vocally that it was not his fault, it could happen to anyone, there was no proof, it was all just anti-Vigil hysteria.

Why the difference in outcome? Jo came out with a fix. Had he maintained that there was no problem and that there was nothing to be done, his company would likely have seen the same rigs disapproving his device.








seanlarose  (C License)

Apr 14, 2011, 8:50 PM
Post #9 of 116 (3148 views)
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Re: [billvon] Argus Investigation - San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

I call 100% BS. The issue with Vigil was a hard plastic insert with sharp edges on the cutter that was completely a design flaw. Now it has been proven that the issue with Argus was caused by lead shot from a packing weight. What's the "fix" for this? Disallow anyone with a loop cutting AAD to use packing weights with shot pellets in them?

I'm not sure how you can compare these two issues. One was caused by a design flaw of the cutter, and one was caused by external influences that are not related to the make/model of the AAD.

Sean LR

PS: Feel free to delete this post like you did with the last one...


CrazyAl  (C 3179)

Apr 14, 2011, 9:17 PM
Post #10 of 116 (3122 views)
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Re: [billvon] Argus Investigation - San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

Re posting this.. Please delete it again Bill! Does Cypres throw you a free unit every time you cover something up for them..
Attachments: SSK.png (140 KB)


mark  (D 6108)

Apr 14, 2011, 9:23 PM
Post #11 of 116 (3118 views)
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Re: [seanlarose] Argus Investigation - San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Now it has been proven that the issue with Argus was caused by lead shot from a packing weight.

The report was a positive but preliminary step. I'm not sure anything has been proven. The report was of a steel ball; the report suggested it was something that might have come from a packing weight.

The report does not say how big the steel ball was; photos of the ball are not detailed enough to show the expected scarring or deformation; and the report does not suggest a mechanism for how the ball caused the cutter damage.

Mark


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 14, 2011, 11:51 PM
Post #12 of 116 (3054 views)
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Re: [CrazyAl] Argus Investigation - San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

>Please delete it again Bill!

Sorry, I can't; I'm not a moderator on this forum.


piisfish

Apr 15, 2011, 12:14 AM
Post #13 of 116 (3045 views)
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Re: [rhys] Argus Investigation - San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The removal of all argii would have created a very large gap in an expensive market...
I agree with you on the "expensive market" part...

For the VERY LARGE gap Crazy, do you know how many Argii were sold/given ? what is the percentage of Argus in the AAD world ?
I am very hapy that there is competition in the AAD world, and that there is always a clientele for new products.




bofh  (D 13995)

Apr 15, 2011, 4:34 AM
Post #15 of 116 (2969 views)
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Re: [seanlarose] Argus Investigation - San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I call 100% BS. The issue with Vigil was a hard plastic insert with sharp edges on the cutter that was completely a design flaw. Now it has been proven that the issue with Argus was caused by lead shot from a packing weight.

People didn't know that until now. Given a history of failed cutters I think it was a reasonable assumption that it was the cutter's fault again when the loop wasn't cut.


(This post was edited by bofh on Apr 15, 2011, 4:35 AM)


sundevil777  (D License)

Apr 15, 2011, 7:12 AM
Post #16 of 116 (2863 views)
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Re: [bofh] Argus Investigation - San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I call 100% BS. The issue with Vigil was a hard plastic insert with sharp edges on the cutter that was completely a design flaw. Now it has been proven that the issue with Argus was caused by lead shot from a packing weight.

People didn't know that until now. Given a history of failed cutters I think it was a reasonable assumption that it was the cutter's fault again when the loop wasn't cut.

We still don't know it.

To bother to take pics of lousy, out of focus pics trying to show up close details of everything BUT the little ball...that doesn't make sense. It could just be poor engineering instincts (that is apparent) that resulted in not carefully checking out the condition and composition of the ball, or it could be worse. Also, as others have suggested, we don't know enough to say that the ball couldn't have been introduced at the mfg, in which case the ban still makes sense.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Apr 15, 2011, 7:21 AM
Post #17 of 116 (2848 views)
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Re: [CrazyAl] Argus Investigation - San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

Bill did not remove your post, I did. Conspiracy theories are to be limited to Speakers Corner on here, not the topical forums. Anyone trying to engage in them in this forum will find their posts removed.


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Apr 15, 2011, 7:24 AM
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Re: [PhreeZone] Argus Investigation - San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

Pointing out a conflict of interest is not the same thing as propagating a conspiracy theory.


seanlarose  (C License)

Apr 15, 2011, 7:45 AM
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Re: [billvon] Argus Investigation - San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

Apologies Bill, the green name and "Moderator" underneath confused me as you were the next to post.

And Phree: Initiating a conspiracy theory would have been making accusations such as all the container manufacturers getting together to make a push to get someone out of the industry. Or maybe that Argus' competition may have been privy to this information beforehand, etc... I'd hardly call pointing out a simple piece of very relevant and factual information initiating a conspiracy theory.

But maybe you're right, and the politics forum would be a better place to discuss this issue. It's becoming more apparent that that's what this whole thing is about anyway...


yoink

Apr 15, 2011, 8:34 AM
Post #20 of 116 (2764 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Argus Investigation - San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Also, as others have suggested, we don't know enough to say that the ball couldn't have been introduced at the mfg, in which case the ban still makes sense.

Nonsense.

The Argus ban was introduced as a result of a suspected design flaw.
Even IF the ball was introduced at the factory, that's a completely different basis for an investigation and one that is not only far less likely to have repeatable results, but can be dealt with far differently. How about issuing an immediate 'thorough inspection notice for foreign objects in the cutter' for all Argus units, for example? It's also far more possible to change QC procedures at the factory. Both of these would have less dramatic results for the manufacturer.

Saying the reason for the ban still stands is invalid.


(This post was edited by yoink on Apr 15, 2011, 8:35 AM)


sundevil777  (D License)

Apr 15, 2011, 8:39 AM
Post #21 of 116 (2763 views)
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Re: [yoink] Argus Investigation - San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

I admit you're right on that, if we did actually know the ball was the problem, and even if it came from the factory, as long as it could be inspected to verify, then no ban would be justified. Unfortunately we don't yet know the ball was the problem. We may be very close to that, but not quite.

I hope the ban is lifted. I want there to be good competition.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Apr 15, 2011, 8:51 AM
Post #22 of 116 (2738 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Argus Investigation - San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I hope the ban is lifted. I want there to be good competition.

I hope that the Argus design is proven to be sound, and then the ban is lifted, leading to good competition. Wihtout the first part, the resulting competition couldn't be considered 'good', as one of the members of the competition might have a design flaw.

Beyond that, this report does little to inspire confidence. The author is of unknown qualifications engineering-wise. Being an experienced jumper and rigger does not qualify him to analyze a pyro-technic cutter. The photos are of poor quality, and the tools used to hold the items both appear to be rusty. None of this adds credibility.

Is anyone aware of a past relationship between the author, and Argus owner Karl Goots? It appears that 'skysupplieseurope' is a gear dealer, and last time I checked, Argus is a gear manufacturer.

This report should have been left to an official regulatory body, or at least an unrelated manufacturer of cutters or similar equipment who have engineers and test facilities on hand.


(This post was edited by davelepka on Apr 15, 2011, 8:52 AM)


Scrumpot  (D License)

Apr 15, 2011, 8:59 AM
Post #23 of 116 (2726 views)
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Re: [yoink] Argus Investigation - San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm having a particularly hard time envisioning how the steel ball even could have gotten itself inside the cutter in the 1st place. Any (credible) theories?


CrazyAl  (C 3179)

Apr 15, 2011, 11:04 AM
Post #24 of 116 (2653 views)
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Re: [billvon] Argus Investigation - San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry Bill, I definitely did some assuming there. I still think my post is valid, and it was not cool that is was deleted!


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 15, 2011, 11:49 AM
Post #25 of 116 (2613 views)
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Re: [yoink] Argus Investigation - San Marcos [In reply to] Can't Post

>Even IF the ball was introduced at the factory, that's a completely different basis for an investigation . .

Agreed; it's more of a process issue than a design issue.

>How about issuing an immediate 'thorough inspection notice for foreign objects in
>the cutter' for all Argus units, for example?

That would be an excellent idea. And had Aviacom come out with that corrective action, rather than just claiming that nothing at all was wrong, all their cutters work fine and that it's all a big conspiracy, it's likely that this whole mess could have been avoided.

On the plus side, if the various manufacturer's bans on the Argus were enough of an incentive to get them to fix the problem, then all skydivers will benefit.


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