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Argus ban discussion (Was Argus Ban List)

 

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Coreefdiver  (D 15287)

Apr 14, 2011, 4:53 AM
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Argus ban discussion (Was Argus Ban List) Can't Post

EDIT: I moved this to it's own thread as the conversation has drifted away from the intent of the original thread. Please use this thread to discuss this issue and the other one for SB's and updates to the ban list.


Looks like they're claiming FOD* caused the failure according to the email I got this AM from Karel


*FOD: foriegn object damage. In this case a steel shot pellet.

Id post the rest, but am using my ifone.

Still doesnt excuse Aviacoms actions (or lack thereof)


(This post was edited by LouDiamond on May 1, 2011, 4:16 PM)


IanHarrop  (C 1152)

Apr 14, 2011, 5:10 AM
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Re: [Coreefdiver] Argus Ban List [In reply to] Can't Post

FOD
http://tools.emailgarage.com/...;MessageId=509493423


rhys  (D 95)

Apr 14, 2011, 5:59 AM
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Re: [IanHarrop] Argus Ban List [In reply to] Can't Post

So all this Argus bashing for nothing...

When's that list going to be ammended do you think?


rhys  (D 95)

Apr 14, 2011, 6:21 AM
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Re: [Coreefdiver] Argus Ban List [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Still doesnt excuse Aviacoms actions (or lack thereof)

They said that they wished to investigate, and that the evidence was being witheld from them.

They we subsequnetly banned from a series of major rig manufactureres and parachute associations all based on the result an anomaly that was no fault of the unit itself, what ever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

Plenty of knee jerking going on though...

How do you suppose they did wrong, they were as in the dark about it as any of us until any sort of open investigation.


(This post was edited by rhys on Apr 14, 2011, 6:24 AM)


Coreefdiver  (D 15287)

Apr 14, 2011, 6:40 AM
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Re: [rhys] Argus Ban List [In reply to] Can't Post

how about a history of the same 'malf' happening and then factor in the way that Aviacom handled things.

"bans" = precaution based on history and then available facts

Aviacoms actions through the whole mess, going back to at least the Poland incident = unacceptable and unprofessional


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Apr 14, 2011, 6:42 AM
Post #6 of 120 (2905 views)
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Re: [IanHarrop] Argus Ban List [In reply to] Can't Post

Lead shot is very soft, I would have expected the cutter to just cut through it with no issue at all. I do not even see damage to the shot ball in these photos. To me that is a concern if the cutter was able to get damaged by one of the softer materials out there.


sundevil777  (D License)

Apr 14, 2011, 6:46 AM
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Re: [IanHarrop] Argus Ban List [In reply to] Can't Post


There should have been some detail pic/close up of the steel shot ball


IanHarrop  (C 1152)

Apr 14, 2011, 6:49 AM
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Re: [PhreeZone] Argus Ban List [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Lead shot is very soft, I would have expected the cutter to just cut through it with no issue at all. I do not even see damage to the shot ball in these photos. To me that is a concern if the cutter was able to get damaged by one of the softer materials out there.

Yup lead is soft, but close reading of the report says its a steel ball.
"This looks like a small steel ball, as used in shot bags"
"Picture 6:steel ball"




Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Apr 14, 2011, 6:59 AM
Post #10 of 120 (3017 views)
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Re: [IanHarrop] Argus Ban List [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know of anyone that uses steel balls in shot bags. Steel rusts unless its stainless or treated and the last thing you want to be putting into a rig is rust dust. Lead shot is typically used in shotbags around here. Lead is much more dense and does not rust.

More details on the FOD should be provided to help clarify the issue.




rhys  (D 95)

Apr 14, 2011, 7:03 AM
Post #12 of 120 (3010 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Argus Ban List [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't know of anyone that uses steel balls in shot bags. Steel rusts unless its stainless or treated and the last thing you want to be putting into a rig is rust dust. Lead shot is typically used in shotbags around here. Lead is much more dense and does not rust.

the word 'like' was there, i thought of lead shot too when i read that.

any small bearing could be transferred onto the packing mat from someones shoe or any of a number of possibilities, but that is moot.

The fact is that there was a metal foreign object in the cutter and that is possible with all cutters from all manufacturers.


NovaTTT  (D 17887)

Apr 14, 2011, 7:04 AM
Post #13 of 120 (3019 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Argus Ban List [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I do not even see damage to the shot ball in these photos.

I'm not saying it is not a lead shot ball, but they labeled the image "steel" and in the report say it "looks like a small steel ball".

This is a very interesting report, but it is still lacking. I also would like to see close images of the shot ball as well as a determination if it is actually steel.

I'm also curious how this relates to the other cutter-related incidents.


piisfish

Apr 14, 2011, 7:14 AM
Post #14 of 120 (3004 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Argus Ban List [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Lead shot is very soft, I would have expected the cutter to just cut through it with no issue at all. I do not even see damage to the shot ball in these photos. To me that is a concern if the cutter was able to get damaged by one of the softer materials out there.
looks too shiny and perfect to be lead. Could be some plated heavy metal (like I have in some of my weights)


(This post was edited by piisfish on Apr 14, 2011, 7:23 AM)


pchapman  (D 1014)

Apr 14, 2011, 7:34 AM
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Re: [sundevil777] Argus Ban List [In reply to] Can't Post


The .ashx file didn't open up for me except in Visual Studio... which showed its just a pdf. So for anyone with problems viewing it, just rename the extension.


dgermano  (D License)

Apr 14, 2011, 7:54 AM
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Re: [PhreeZone] Argus Ban List [In reply to] Can't Post

Start adding foreign objects to the equation and you have no basis to expect anything to happen like it should under circumstances. It could have just deflected the cutter and wasted energy the system would normally use to cut the loop. Who knows, but the real question is why was the steel shot in there?


sundevil777  (D License)

Apr 14, 2011, 8:06 AM
Post #17 of 120 (2943 views)
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Re: [NovaTTT] Argus Ban List [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This is a very interesting report, but it is still lacking.

As a report it does not inspire confidence. Lousy, out of focus pictures, no detailed picture or investigation of what is of obvious interest (the ball),


Unstable  (D 28930)

Apr 14, 2011, 8:20 AM
Post #18 of 120 (2926 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Argus Ban List [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I don't know of anyone that uses steel balls in shot bags. Steel rusts unless its stainless or treated and the last thing you want to be putting into a rig is rust dust.

I agree that using steel balls is not the best idea, but given the price of lead shoot, and the current restrictions many places put on lead shot (hunting waterfowl) ~ it would SEEM like a logical choice to use. I actually use stainless stell ball berrings ~ they don't rust, but the principle for using them instead of lead is clear.


NovaTTT  (D 17887)

Apr 14, 2011, 8:22 AM
Post #19 of 120 (2924 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Argus Ban List [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There should have been some detail pic/close up of the steel shot ball

That's part of what is missing, but not the whole.

One wonders, for example, can the shot ball be exclusively traced back to the cutter head prior to the incident? or is it post-incident handling transfer?

Like many, I'll continue watching to see how this continues to unfold.


irishrigger  (D 297)

Apr 14, 2011, 8:24 AM
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Re: [sundevil777] Argus Ban List [In reply to] Can't Post

this is a strange one,i would also expect some marking on the little ball.unfortunatley there is no other pics of this forgeign object. i find it a bit strange,they have lots of pics of the cutter and other cutter and the damaged it caused to the cutter, and just one pic of this foreign object which is not very good picture.
also raises the question of how this object got caught up in the cutter in the first place and that it stayed there.


Skybear

Apr 14, 2011, 8:29 AM
Post #21 of 120 (2914 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Argus Ban List [In reply to] Can't Post

How can an object like this enter the cutter? On a Cypres cutter there is a plastic insert that prevents anything from getting into the cutter. Is it the same on the Argus cutter? I suppose it is the same, because both are waterproof and therefore the cutter must be closed at the loop hole. And I can hardly imagine that a shot ball gets and stays in the loop hole just by coincidence. Did it maybe happen during the production and the shot ball was inside the cutter all the time? This report raises more questions than it answers.


piisfish

Apr 14, 2011, 8:33 AM
Post #22 of 120 (2906 views)
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Re: [Skybear] Argus Ban List [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How can an object like this enter the cutter? On a Cypres cutter there is a plastic insert that prevents anything from getting into the cutter. Is it the same on the Argus cutter? I suppose it is the same, because both are waterproof and therefore the cutter must be closed at the loop hole. And I can hardly imagine that a shot ball gets and stays in the loop hole just by coincidence. Did it maybe happen during the production and the shot ball was inside the cutter all the time? This report raises more questions than it answers.
imagine putting packing weights on the rig to let the packjob compress a bit before closing it.The Cypres temp pin (pointy both ends) ponches a small hole in teh packing weigt, and a ball escapes and fall, bad luck, just through the grommets, inside the cutter, and is blocked in there by the loop. Et Voila.


Divalent  (C 40494)

Apr 14, 2011, 8:50 AM
Post #23 of 120 (2901 views)
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Re: [NovaTTT] Argus Ban List [In reply to] Can't Post

(Not to NovaTTT in particular)

There were indications in the original report of this incident that raised questions about the maintanence of this rig. IIRC, the loop was not siliconized, there was the suggestion that the packing log was (or would be) altered, and the rigger may have been refusing to cooperate with those investigating.


(This post was edited by Divalent on Apr 14, 2011, 8:55 AM)


Sabre1Lucke  (D License)

Apr 14, 2011, 9:25 AM
Post #24 of 120 (2867 views)
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Re: [Skybear] Argus Ban List [In reply to] Can't Post

When installing the AAD or during the last repack it should be noticed by the rigger.
Espacially when you put the loop thru the opening of the cutter.
This in combination with the indications in the original report of this incident that raised questions about the maintanence of this rig.

They should remove the ban.

Here you can see the cutter of Argus:
http://www.chutingstar.com/...gus-1-pin-cutter.jpg


(This post was edited by Sabre1Lucke on Apr 14, 2011, 9:28 AM)


Skybear

Apr 14, 2011, 10:40 AM
Post #25 of 120 (2800 views)
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Re: [Sabre1Lucke] Argus Ban List [In reply to] Can't Post

I know how the cutter looks like. This picture is of bad quality and it is taken from an angle that does not show what I was asking for. Is there a plastic sleeve inside the loop hole, which prevents objects from going into the cutter tube (or how you would call it in the english language)?

If you have a better picture I would appreciate to see it.

Another thing that is worth mentioning is, that Skysupplieseurope and Mr. Camfferman is closely related to Argus. In my opinion to close for an independent investigation.


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