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Setting landing direction #2 (was: Perris double fatality)

 

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Airman1270  (A 9459)

Apr 3, 2011, 11:11 AM
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Setting landing direction #2 (was: Perris double fatality) Can't Post

Lotsa interesting stuff here, even if it's not directly related to the Perris incident.

I'm not getting the First-One-Down-Sets-the-Direction thing. If I'm at 1500' and watch the first guy land downwind, what's wrong with me doing a normal upwind landing, as long as there's no other traffic nearby?

I fly a large main and frequently land last. Several years ago I was visiting the Ranch and grudgingly complied with the pre-jump request to land downwind, but could see no point to it, as I had the immediate chunk of sky to myself. Nearly everyone else had already landed, and the tandems were still quite a distance away.

Cheers,
Jon


(This post was edited by billvon on Apr 3, 2011, 9:10 PM)


firemedic  (D 29776)

Apr 3, 2011, 11:26 AM
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Re: [Airman1270] Fatality *2 - Perris, CA - 31 March 2011 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Lotsa interesting stuff here, even if it's not directly related to the Perris incident.

I'm not getting the First-One-Down-Sets-the-Direction thing. If I'm at 1500' and watch the first guy land downwind, what's wrong with me doing a normal upwind landing, as long as there's no other traffic nearby?

I fly a large main and frequently land last. Several years ago I was visiting the Ranch and grudgingly complied with the pre-jump request to land downwind, but could see no point to it, as I had the immediate chunk of sky to myself. Nearly everyone else had already landed, and the tandems were still quite a distance away.

Cheers,
Jon

I don't quite get the first one down sets the pattern thing either. Why should a handful HP canopy pilots set up a downwind landing for everyone else. I think it is inconsiderate.


polarbear  (D 25673)

Apr 3, 2011, 11:45 AM
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Re: [firemedic] Fatality *2 - Perris, CA - 31 March 2011 [In reply to] Can't Post

Another general point I want to make about landing patterns and landing areas:

The idea is the difference between LANDING AREA and LANDING SPACE. The Landing area is a flat space where jumpers come into contact with the ground. The landing space includes the landing area plus the volume above it where jumpers fly their patterns.

I think the idea of seperate landing areas is great, but it is important to note that we have to seperate the entire LANDING SPACE, which includes the pattern space. IT IS NOT ENOUGH TO JUST HAVE SEPERATE LANDING AREAS. The volumes in which jumpers fly their patterns for each landing area must be seperate as well. Fatal collisions almost always happen in the pattern, not at ground level in the actual landing area.

I have been to several DZs, which include large DZs that like to advertise how safe they are because they have seperate landing areas, where the patterns are constantly in conflict. Regular-pattern jumpers are constantly overflying the HP landing area under 1000 ft. THIS IS WHERE SWOOPERS ARE MAKING THEIR TURN. THIS SPACE is where things have to be seperated.

I think it's important to drive home this concept because in order to improve safety, we HAVE to seperate the pattern space. Seperate landing areas does little if the patterns conflict.


polarbear  (D 25673)

Apr 3, 2011, 11:55 AM
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Re: [polarbear] Fatality *2 - Perris, CA - 31 March 2011 [In reply to] Can't Post

As a corollary to my last post about landing area/landing space, I have a suggestion that all those reular-pattern jumpers out there can use immediately to improve safety:

If you jump at a DZ with a seperate HP landing area, make sure you stay out of the space where HP jumpers are making their turns.

This space where HP turns are being executed can be different under different circumstances, so you will have to watch things at your location to see. Generally speaking, if you are over the HP area under 1000 ft, you are in a dangerous position.

One hopes the swooper above you will see you and act accordingly, but at this point you have given up control and left things up to the swooper. Be proactive and defensive...stay out of that space.


keskeie  (D 26254)

Apr 3, 2011, 12:18 PM
Post #5 of 42 (2171 views)
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Re: [firemedic] Fatality *2 - Perris, CA - 31 March 2011 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't quite get the first one down sets the pattern thing either. Why should a handful HP canopy pilots set up a downwind landing for everyone else. I think it is inconsiderate.

This isn't accurate. In light to variable winds, the landing direction is south to north. And all regular and/or experienced jumpers at Perris land this way. This isn't the issue. It's just a secondary rule, so that people won't be landing in both directions.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Apr 3, 2011, 12:35 PM
Post #6 of 42 (2134 views)
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Re: [keskeie] Fatality *2 - Perris, CA - 31 March 2011 [In reply to] Can't Post

Can we stop with all this 1st man down discussion? It doesn't have anything to do with this incident.

Any facts coming from Perris? I've heard some details in PMs but wont post them since i have no direct knowledge... Anyone with direct information?


keskeie  (D 26254)

Apr 3, 2011, 12:42 PM
Post #7 of 42 (2139 views)
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Re: [Remster] Fatality *2 - Perris, CA - 31 March 2011 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Can we stop with all this 1st man down discussion? It doesn't have anything to do with this incident.

Any facts coming from Perris? I've heard some details in PMs but wont post them since i have no direct knowledge... Anyone with direct information?

Sorry, Remi, that's what I was trying to stop, all this stupid general talk about things that have no relevance. There is no discussion to even have yet, because I haven't heard any details or facts or anything. Can you PM me what you've heard?


firemedic  (D 29776)

Apr 3, 2011, 5:05 PM
Post #8 of 42 (1913 views)
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Re: [keskeie] Fatality *2 - Perris, CA - 31 March 2011 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I don't quite get the first one down sets the pattern thing either. Why should a handful HP canopy pilots set up a downwind landing for everyone else. I think it is inconsiderate.

This isn't accurate. In light to variable winds, the landing direction is south to north. And all regular and/or experienced jumpers at Perris land this way. This isn't the issue. It's just a secondary rule, so that people won't be landing in both directions.

Thanks, that helps me understand that this is being done specifically to help keep everyone flying the same way.
What I was referring to was a large DZ I visited on a few occasions.
The jumpers with the small canopies would always be first down and even with the winds approaching 10 mph would down wind it the majority of the time. The rule was being followed but it was creating some amount of aggravation among the jumpers with larger canopies who either followed suit or landed off in the desert. Not saying it was wrong, just inconsiderate.


sundevil777  (D License)

Apr 3, 2011, 7:16 PM
Post #9 of 42 (1851 views)
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Re: [Remster] Fatality *2 - Perris, CA - 31 March 2011 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Can we stop with all this 1st man down discussion? It doesn't have anything to do with this incident.

Any facts coming from Perris? I've heard some details in PMs but wont post them since i have no direct knowledge... Anyone with direct information?

This thread isn't in the incidents forum (at least not anymore).

Some advocate a FMD policy as a way of helping to prevent collisions. It is appropriate to have the discussion in this forum.


(This post was edited by sundevil777 on Apr 3, 2011, 7:17 PM)


ksjumper  (D 12628)

Apr 3, 2011, 8:16 PM
Post #10 of 42 (1809 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Fatality *2 - Perris, CA - 31 March 2011 [In reply to] Can't Post

I think no matter what size aircraft we are all jumping from we need to communicate our intentions before we board the plane. I.E. the landing pattern, who is going to do a HP landing, who is opening high, size canopies etc.

We've gotten a custom to talking about how to load the plane for proper exit order before we jump, now we just need to add to the conversation what people will be doing under canopy and landing. Pretty easy to do when jumping out of a C-182 and might require jumpers to circle up to actually talk and find out a little bit about each other before loading an otter.

How many times do you jump on a plane and don't know over half the people on the load or their skill level? Even if you do you still ought to find out what your buddies are going do. Could be a little converation like, "You doing your thing?" "Ya, 270, how bout you?" "Yep 450."

On alot of loads half of the plane is tandems anyway(assuming tandems aren't gonna start flying into each other) so it ain't gonna be that hard to get on the same page. In both work and play most performance problems are the result of lack of communication.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Apr 4, 2011, 1:17 AM
Post #11 of 42 (1753 views)
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Re: [Remster] Fatality *2 - Perris, CA - 31 March 2011 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Can we stop with all this 1st man down discussion? It doesn't have anything to do with this incident.

Any facts coming from Perris? I've heard some details in PMs but wont post them since i have no direct knowledge... Anyone with direct information?

Any discussion that relates to ways to avoid a canopy collision is relevant to this thread. And FMD can lead to a collision.
If you know details post them. If not your statement offers nothing to the discussion.

Sparky


nigel99  (D 1)

Apr 4, 2011, 7:25 AM
Post #12 of 42 (1669 views)
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Re: [Airman1270] Setting landing direction #2 (was: Perris double fatality) [In reply to] Can't Post

I just want to point something out about last down. At the Fitz boogie I opened relatively high and was busy setting up for the landing area near the tent/boarding. I was comfortable that there were only 1 or 2 other canopies in the sky. Next thing all hell broke loose around me as a second load opened - in my case the number of canopies exceeded my skill level and I aborted my original plan and landed further out.

This has nothing to do with FMD as on all my jumps I had discussed landing direction with a senior jumper in advance.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 4, 2011, 9:28 AM
Post #13 of 42 (1623 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Setting landing direction #2 (was: Perris double fatality) [In reply to] Can't Post

>I was comfortable that there were only 1 or 2 other canopies in the sky.

As I am sure you are now aware, "1 or 2 other canopies in the sky" is 1 or 2 too many canopies to swoop near.


bofh  (D 13995)

Apr 5, 2011, 12:54 AM
Post #14 of 42 (1514 views)
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Re: [Airman1270] Setting landing direction #2 (was: Perris double fatality) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm not getting the First-One-Down-Sets-the-Direction thing. If I'm at 1500' and watch the first guy land downwind, what's wrong with me doing a normal upwind landing, as long as there's no other traffic nearby?

Nothing would be wrong as long as there is no traffic nearby. Lots of accidents have proven that people think there is no traffic nearby when there actually is and therefore its safer to assume that there is and act accordingly.

Personally I find it better that one decides on a landing direction with an arrow on the ground instead of the "first person" rule. Then it is easier for people to plan their flight pattern earlier instead of having someone spiral down, set up for a 180 degree turn and confuse half the lift.


nigel99  (D 1)

Apr 5, 2011, 1:17 AM
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Re: [billvon] Setting landing direction #2 (was: Perris double fatality) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>I was comfortable that there were only 1 or 2 other canopies in the sky.

As I am sure you are now aware, "1 or 2 other canopies in the sky" is 1 or 2 too many canopies to swoop near.

Swooping a 260LaughLaugh

In my case it was the first time I had ever been in a situation where more than 1 plane was flying. I was still getting comfortable with my skill set and the lesson learned was that a senior jumper told me before hand that I should be opening as close to 3.5k as I could for precisely this reason.


Liemberg  (Student)

Apr 5, 2011, 5:12 AM
Post #16 of 42 (1493 views)
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Re: [Airman1270] Setting landing direction #2 (was: Perris double fatality) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'm not getting the First-One-Down-Sets-the-Direction thing.
Frankly, I don't get it either. By its nature, wind is an unpredictable factor in many places. What you would want is to have 'the actual patern' decided by a clear sign visible for all to see from 2000ft which reacts directly on significant changes in the wind and does nothing when the changes are insignificant, so that it starts to move @ 5 knots or more but doesn't move when the changing wind force remains below 5 knots.

You can use a discarded wheel + half axis as base / pivot point.

One day of DIY and less than $100 in material will solve the landing direction problem once and for al in real time...

Though it doesn't fix stupid, at least it will be impartial.

Furthermore, it is fully automated - which really is much better than any system that depends on someone 'in a position of authority' actually walk up to the thing 'when he feels that the wind has changed'.

(Hey, we're skydivers...)
Attachments: Arrowandsock.JPG (22.9 KB)
  arrowandwheel.JPG (31.8 KB)


bofh  (D 13995)

Apr 5, 2011, 7:26 AM
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Re: [Liemberg] Setting landing direction #2 (was: Perris double fatality) [In reply to] Can't Post

And if the wind is changing when half the left has landed?

Many people will focus on their pattern and not look at the arrow as it moves, causing only some to land according to the new direction...


theonlyski  (D License)

Apr 5, 2011, 7:35 AM
Post #18 of 42 (1449 views)
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Re: [bofh] Setting landing direction #2 (was: Perris double fatality) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And if the wind is changing when half the left has landed?

Many people will focus on their pattern and not look at the arrow as it moves, causing only some to land according to the new direction...

If the winds have changed significantly enough after half the load has landed, and the rest are in pattern, the winds probably aren't that high, and a light crosswind landing wouldn't hurt. Sure, you should be able to flat turn to a new direction, but EVERYONE would need to do it, or there could be pattern interference by someone who didn't see the shift.

Once the pattern is set for the load, it should stay the same till the last jumper on that load is on the ground.


riggerpaul  (D 28098)

Apr 5, 2011, 7:51 AM
Post #19 of 42 (1447 views)
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Re: [bofh] Setting landing direction #2 (was: Perris double fatality) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Many people will focus ...

Another word that might be used here is fixate.

Piloting a canopy is still piloting. Pilots learn that any sort of fixation is a bad thing.

If the people in the air cannot learn to see all the information available, they should not be flying in a crowd yet.

A single landing direction may help create some order out of the chaos.

But if the people aren't watching everything they need to watch, no amount of regimentation will completely eliminate collisions.

If people don't actually admit that their own bad habits are a major contributing factor to this problem, nothing is going to get better.

Too many people seem to be saying that this is someone else's problem, instead of realizing that they themselves are contributing to the problem.

Sure, having good rules or common practices or standards helps some.

But, when all is said and done, it is people failing to look and see that causes collisions.


(This post was edited by riggerpaul on Apr 5, 2011, 7:54 AM)


Liemberg  (Student)

Apr 5, 2011, 8:48 AM
Post #20 of 42 (1434 views)
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Re: [bofh] Setting landing direction #2 (was: Perris double fatality) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Many people will focus on their pattern and not look at the arrow as it moves, causing only some to land according to the new direction...

It only moves when the change is significant, the large majority of the fluctuations (i.e. that would move a windsock) will NOT move this thing. For instance, if yesterday the winds were a steady18-20 knots from a certain direction but today there is variable wind / less than 5 knots / 180 degree variation you would not need 'in airplane communication' or 'first person down sets a pattern-that-scares-YOU'.

The thing is, it should be built so that it only moves when there is enough wind and remain stationary when there is too little wind to move it (as described).
This way everybody can keep the pattern established 'the last time there was wind' and the pattern only changes when the wind is really picking up. Since it moves automatically, there is no need for human interaction (i.e. no person from the staff has to go up there to change it)

Direction of yellow arrow is ALWAYS direction of landing / pattern.

AND if you see that thing move more than 90 degrees while you are together with a whole load under canopies you guys may be in the wrong place anyway... Smile


DocPop  (C License)

Apr 5, 2011, 9:04 AM
Post #21 of 42 (1432 views)
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Re: [Liemberg] Setting landing direction #2 (was: Perris double fatality) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Direction of yellow arrow is ALWAYS direction of landing / pattern.

What happens when it changes when someone is in the middle of their pattern? Do they chase the arrow?

When is the last moment a person is briefed that they can change their planned landing direction?


Liemberg  (Student)

Apr 5, 2011, 9:26 AM
Post #22 of 42 (1414 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Setting landing direction #2 (was: Perris double fatality) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
What happens when it changes when someone is in the middle of their pattern?
Since it only moves when there's a significant change, that doesn't happen. There MAY be a significant change in wind DIRECTION but it is (almost) never strong enough to really change the direction the arrow is pointing given the weather circumstances on 99% of the jumps. It is not uncommon however to see the arrow pointing in one direction and the small windsocket right next to it in a different direction.

Arrow = landing (direction / pattern)
Windsocket = actual wind

As I said in the other post If you see this thing move significantly (+45 degrees) while under canopy, you really really really want to be somewhere else...

Other than that, if that does happen it is there for all to see (new pattern)

IMO this is 'skydiver proof' - simple, easy to interpret, low maintenance etcetera...

My guess is however that since it doesn't need a computer or an Android app... O well.... Cool


hchunter614  (B 30368)

Apr 5, 2011, 9:51 AM
Post #23 of 42 (1400 views)
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Re: [polarbear] Fatality *2 - Perris, CA - 31 March 2011 [In reply to] Can't Post

+1000


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 5, 2011, 10:37 AM
Post #24 of 42 (1385 views)
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Re: [Liemberg] Setting landing direction #2 (was: Perris double fatality) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
What happens when it changes when someone is in the middle of their pattern?
Since it only moves when there's a significant change, that doesn't happen.

...that doesn't happen....hmmmmmmm.
Oh, but it does and it's a good idea to have a plan when it does.



As I said in the other post If you see this thing move significantly (+45 degrees) while under canopy, you really really really want to be somewhere else...

...if you are afraid of cross-wind and downwind landings, yes. Even though it's too late in the game, you may be wishing you were somewhere else and if you are really, really good at translocation you could be.


Other than that, if that does happen it is there for all to see (new pattern)

...and to change their landing direction to chase the wind. It's never a good idea to chase the wind.


IMO this is 'skydiver proof' - simple, easy to interpret, low maintenance etcetera...

I disagree. There is nothing 'skydiver proof' except staying on the ground.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Apr 5, 2011, 10:38 AM)


Liemberg  (Student)

Apr 5, 2011, 11:16 AM
Post #25 of 42 (1362 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Setting landing direction #2 (was: Perris double fatality) [In reply to] Can't Post

Although I am mighty impressed with your 10000 jumps and 99 years in the sport, I respectfully disagree. WHEN this thing moves it only does so when the wind changes significantly. It doesn't react to small changes.

As I said, it doesn't fix stupid.

But if you find yourself @ 1000ft and see that it is actually turning you have a NEW landing direction. At least you can be pretty certain there is no traffic coming from the sides and the general direction will be the same.

Am I able to land downwind?

What do you think?

Do I prefer to land upwind?

What do you think?

However, it is not that I'm afraid of crosswind landings that makes me 'want to be elsewhere' if I see something like this change direction +45 degrees or more from under my canopy. I have learned in my limited experience that changes in wind direction (+45 degrees + 5 knots) are indicative for meteorological conditions that were the root of the old saying "It is better to be on the ground, wishing you were up there under a parachute than to be up there under a parachute - wishing you were on the ground..."

(i.e you need a lot of turbulence / 'cooking winds' to get the situation where this can lead to the problems you perceive. Sensible people usually are skipping this load already in that situation... In the large majority of the cases it beats what's already in place like 'first person down sets the pattern'. In this case it is 'large yellow arrow sets the pattern'. From experience I can tell you it does a well enough job...)

Furthermore, I don't see the problem if my direction during the landing is different from the guy with the pocket-rocket that landed a minute ago. It will be the same for everybody else who hasn't landed yet. And those are the only ones I'm worried about...


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