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PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway?

 

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Poll: PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway?
Cut away first, then pull reserve 227 / 66%
Pull reserve immediately, no cutaway 117 / 34%
344 total votes
 
JackC1

Mar 22, 2011, 3:49 PM
Post #176 of 187 (591 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Funnily enough, one commented, "What are you guys arguing about? You're saying the same thing!"
LaughLaugh


LaughLaughCool Well, that settles it then I guess! I'll get my coat.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 22, 2011, 4:56 PM
Post #177 of 187 (582 views)
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Re: [Divalent] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A reserve pull instead at the same instant might have been better, but I do wonder if he could have done it:
Yes, it would have been better and of course he could have done it and had he done so, he would have had a good canopy over his head in less loss of altitude.

I'd suggest that you train yourself to respond properly in this, and every, situation....and every other situation that you can imagine.

Does it guarantee anything? No. It does greatly increase your odds of survival.

In reply to:
...some time would have been consumed deciding
Not if he had been up to speed (so to speak) on EPs

Note: Get off the "time" idea and start thinking in terms of altitude.

In reply to:
and I bet his muscle memory deploying his main was faster than going for his less familiar reserve.
Same as above.

THIS is a situation where the whole talk about "muscle memory" comes into play. The point was made that blindly depending on "muscle memory" could get your butt into serious trouble. That's because the "muscle memory" was not ingrained for this situation. It's obvious to me that these situations point to a shortage of drilling for EPs.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Mar 22, 2011, 5:07 PM)


sacex250

Mar 22, 2011, 6:41 PM
Post #178 of 187 (579 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's an idea, let's simplify this whole argument with a new hypothetical poll:

Do you consider a pilot chute-in-tow to be a high-speed parachute malfunction along the lines of a bag lock or horseshoe, or is it a high-speed container malfunction along the lines of a hard pull or lost handle?

It seems to me that your personal answer to that question would determine which EP is used.

(1) Obviously, the most immediate risk during a pilot chute-in-tow, whether or not there is a cutaway, is that the reserve pilot chute might get entangled with the main pilot chute fouling the reserve deployment - a bad, bad situation. There is no advantage to having cutaway the risers at this point.

(2) Having avoided (1), the next biggest risk is that during or after deployment of the reserve, the pilot chute-in-tow spontaneously clears causing the main to deploy resulting in a two-out situation with three possibilities: both parachutes operate normally, one or both parachutes malfunctions, or they become entangled. During the reserve deployment, there is only a small window of opportunity for the main to foul the reserve prior to opening shock, reserves are required to be open in three seconds, so entanglement can only occur within about a two second window. Again, there is no advantage to having already cut-away a perfectly good parachute that hasn't malfunctioned yet. If they don't entangle, it's now a two-square situation with its own EP's based on the situation.

If one of the parachutes malfunctions, preferably the main, it can still be cut-away if necessary. If it's the reserve that malfunctions then there is no advantage to having already cut-away a perfectly good main parachute.

If the parachutes entangle then there is no advantage to only hanging from one entangled parachute instead of two. What if the main suddenly inflates and gets ripped away from the reserve and you're not attached to it? Is the reserve going to untangle and reinflate in time, i.e. before ground contact?

Why cut-away a parachute that hasn't malfunctioned yet, especially, if cutting it away has no immediate effect on improving the odds of a successful reserve deployment?

To me, it's a high-speed container malfunction with an appropriate EP, the same as a lost handle, in this case an extremely lost handle. Don't cutaway, pull reserve, but be ready to cut-away the main at any time if it should suddenly deploy before you're on the ground.


JackC1

Mar 23, 2011, 2:00 AM
Post #179 of 187 (551 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
THIS is a situation where the whole talk about "muscle memory" comes into play. The point was made that blindly depending on "muscle memory" could get your butt into serious trouble. That's because the "muscle memory" was not ingrained for this situation. It's obvious to me that these situations point to a shortage of drilling for EPs.

Muscle memory is built by performing a specific motor task over and over until it requires no conscious effort and it's built whether you like it or not. The default knee jerk reaction to 'pull time' is to dump your main. This is because actually pulling your main at pull time will most likely have been repeated hundreds of times for every once you actually pull your reserve at pull time, so the default association is when it's pull time go for your main. Expecting a reserve pull to become the default reaction is unrealistic unless you've drilled hundreds and hundreds of reserve pulls for every main pull you've ever done. That's how muscle memory works and that's why it will occasionally drop you in the shit.

Muscle memory is great when you need to perform a specific motor task efficiently without thinking about it. It's utterly rubbish at deciding which motor task is the correct one to use because it will always pick the one it's done more of.


(This post was edited by JackC1 on Mar 23, 2011, 3:02 AM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Mar 23, 2011, 8:19 AM
Post #180 of 187 (504 views)
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Re: [JackC1] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Muscle memory is great when you need to perform a specific motor task efficiently without thinking about it. It's utterly rubbish at deciding which motor task is the correct one to use because it will always pick the one it's done more of.

I agree, to a point. Muscle memory without mental input can indeed create problems.
'Muscle memory' typically refers to how we train our brains for successful physical endeavors through repetition of activity. There is a difference between being "automatic" and being in "full-autopilot" modes.
Part of muscle memory training includes "if>then."
Sure...some people pull cutaway before pulling silver; if they trained to recognize various scenarios BEFORE they occur, then the memorized responses/outcomes would likely be different. Put in a different light, muscle memory comes in to play during urgent situations and police officers. If they discharged their weapon at every time they drew their firearm...we'd have different training mechanisms for them. Instead, they're trained to prepare for the need, make decisions based on the information they have, and proceed with action A, B, or C.
But it's still all part of the library of muscle memory to which they/we have access via our training.


kuai43  (C License)

Mar 23, 2011, 9:24 AM
Post #181 of 187 (493 views)
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Re: [DSE] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

Muscle memory is great when you need to perform a specific motor task efficiently without thinking about it. It's utterly rubbish at deciding which motor task is the correct one to use because it will always pick the one it's done more of.

I agree, to a point. Muscle memory without mental input can indeed create problems.
'Muscle memory' typically refers to how we train our brains for successful physical endeavors through repetition of activity. There is a difference between being "automatic" and being in "full-autopilot" modes.
Part of muscle memory training includes "if>then."
Sure...some people pull cutaway before pulling silver; if they trained to recognize various scenarios BEFORE they occur, then the memorized responses/outcomes would likely be different. Put in a different light, muscle memory comes in to play during urgent situations and police officers. If they discharged their weapon at every time they drew their firearm...we'd have different training mechanisms for them. Instead, they're trained to prepare for the need, make decisions based on the information they have, and proceed with action A, B, or C.
But it's still all part of the library of muscle memory to which they/we have access via our training.

Don't confuse muscle memory with conditioned actions. Reaching for, grasping, and pulling a handle is muscle memory. The decision to do so is a conditioned reaction. You use muscle memory every time you don't stab yourself in the cheek with your fork.

Having taught martial arts for quite a number of years, I'm very familiar with the difference between the two. For example, if someone lunges for you with a high-section punch, your conditioned reaction will enable you to stab them painfully in the ribs with an effective side kick - if you have trained the mechanics of the kick (muscle memory) with a great many correct repetitions.

Muscle memory is simple. It does not and should not require cognitive mental input. On the other hand, conditioned responses are complicated. The majority of what you're talking about are those.


Ron

Mar 23, 2011, 9:52 AM
Post #182 of 187 (492 views)
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Re: [sacex250] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Do you consider a pilot chute-in-tow to be a high-speed parachute malfunction along the lines of a bag lock or horseshoe, or is it a high-speed container malfunction along the lines of a hard pull or lost handle?

It seems to me that your personal answer to that question would determine which EP is used.

This is key... for me it is a high speed container malfunction.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Mar 24, 2011, 3:07 PM
Post #183 of 187 (434 views)
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Re: [Ron] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

I had personally, been long in the camp of: "If I know I've extracted/pulled/thrown anything (i.e. not a "total") - then I am cutting first."

However, I am now seriously re-considering this, after having recently viewed a 1st-person, POV video by Mike McGowan - of what actually happened to him, when he himself indeed did do this (pitched into a PC-in-tow; cut-away & deployed reserve). Video can be seen, here:

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1312283403059


(This post was edited by Scrumpot on Mar 24, 2011, 3:08 PM)


sundevil777  (D License)

Mar 24, 2011, 3:53 PM
Post #184 of 187 (421 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I had personally, been long in the camp of: "If I know I've extracted/pulled/thrown anything (i.e. not a "total") - then I am cutting first."

However, I am now seriously re-considering this, after having recently viewed a 1st-person, POV video by Mike McGowan - of what actually happened to him, when he himself indeed did do this (pitched into a PC-in-tow; cut-away & deployed reserve). Video can be seen, here:

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1312283403059

It would be very educational if a 'dummy' skydiver could be rigged up to repeatedly do testing of this situation - if a reserve deployment is quickly followed by an already chopped main, how often it will foul the reserve as happened to Mike McGowan.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Mar 25, 2011, 5:37 AM
Post #185 of 187 (387 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I am now seriously re-considering this, after having recently viewed a 1st-person, POV video by Mike McGowan - of what actually happened to him, when he himself indeed did do this (pitched into a PC-in-tow; cut-away & deployed reserve).

First off, you have to admit that Mike always get the shot. He never comes home without good footage in the can.

Back to the topic, that's where the loss of control over your main comes into play. Cutting away removes any measure of control you had over your main canopy, and leaves it's actions up to 'chance'.

In Mike's case, the PC-in-tow cleared, the main began to deploy and depart (as cutaway mains do), and the risers grabbed the reserve slider on the way by. other examples I've seen have had the risers grab the reserve canopy itself as the main tried to exit the situation.

The point is that until you are flying forward under a fully inflated reserve, most of the relative wind is directed upwards, in the direction of your deploying last parachute, and that's the same direction anything you cutaway is also going to go.

To those that argue that cutaway risers will release before the canopy leaves the bag because there's no anchor point for the bag to pull against, fine. In this case, it was the risers, not the canopy or PC, that caught the slider on the way by. Who knows, maybe the canopy was in the bag until the risers grabbed the reserve slider and used that as an anchor point to pull the bag off the canopy.

Any way you slice it, you're better off retaining control over your main canopy. If it gives you a reason to cut it away, and you can do so without risk of fouling your last canopy, then by all means pull the handle, but until such time, leave it alone and keep your main securely attached to your rig.


Ron

Mar 25, 2011, 6:38 AM
Post #186 of 187 (375 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It would be very educational if a 'dummy' skydiver could be rigged up to repeatedly do testing of this situation

We already sent McGowan......Wink

I kid, he is too big to piss off.

The fact is that there have been tests done, PLUS real world examples. So far it seems to be a crap shoot what happens. There is no clear 'best' answer.


sundevil777  (D License)

Mar 25, 2011, 7:50 AM
Post #187 of 187 (369 views)
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Re: [Ron] PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

My memory was that the testing done by the Golden Nuggets did not have the cutaway handle pulled already at the time of deployment.


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