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Night jump requirements for D?

 

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crotalus01  (B 28932)

Mar 19, 2011, 11:20 PM
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Night jump requirements for D? Can't Post

Someone please clarify (if that is possible on DZ.com) - you are required to do 2 night jumps for the D license. Is it required that it be one solo and one group jump? If I had, say, 5 night jumps and all of them were group jumps would I still (technically) have to do a night solo?


SEREJumper  (D 29555)

Mar 19, 2011, 11:54 PM
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Re: [crotalus01] Night jump requirements for D? [In reply to] Can't Post

I would say you are good to go, but I can't sign off a D license either. I'm guessing you went through an MFF course and those are some serious night jumps and real night landings.


kimemerson  (D 13439)

Mar 20, 2011, 3:09 AM
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Re: [crotalus01] Night jump requirements for D? [In reply to] Can't Post

Clipped from the SIM:

D License
4. Persons holding a USPA D license are able to exercise
all privileges of a C-license holder, are eligible for all
USPA ratings, and must have

c. made two night jumps (one solo and one in a
group) with a freefall of at least 20 seconds

While I applaud your asking, I cannot recommend enough that each skydiver own or download (free) the SIM. Your question is addressed very specifically and you could have had your answer in under 30 seconds.

Also, know that the only requirements - unless specified under a particular topic - are in the BSRs. Everything else is a recommendation even if it makes all the safety sense in the world.


kimemerson  (D 13439)

Mar 21, 2011, 2:48 AM
Post #4 of 56 (1034 views)
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Re: [kimemerson] Night jump requirements for D? [In reply to] Can't Post

But as I re-read your question, I'd have to say that your non-solo jumps are fine. I believe the solo is a precaution and not something to keep you from getting the D if you have not done the solo. When I was an S&TA I would not have kept you from getting the D if you had 5 night jumps but none of them as solos. But in my opinion that's still up to interpretation because the SIM does use the word "must". However, in my reading, only the BSRs are requirements which must be followed whereas everything else are recommendations. So I would take it up with your S&TA to see what he/she has to say. They're the one who is going to sign it off anyway.


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Mar 21, 2011, 6:31 AM
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Re: [kimemerson] Night jump requirements for D? [In reply to] Can't Post

Kim,
I am with you on this one. The solo as I interpret it is to get acquainted with a new task for the first time before attempting any sort of group dive.
I would most definately sign off on the night portion of the D license in the above senario. 5 night group dives is more than enough to show competence. Asking for a solo would be a waste of time and money, unless the OP wants to.

We can discuss whether or not the requirement is a good one or not, forget that, I dont want to open that can.
At the last BOD meeting we did grant several D licenses waiving night jumps due to night blindness and some other issues.

Bottom line to OP: As a S&TA, I would sign off on this, as Kim mentioned it is a recommendation and your local S&TA can make this call.


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 21, 2011, 7:07 AM
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Re: [Para5-0] Night jump requirements for D? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
At the last BOD meeting we did grant several D licenses waiving night jumps due to night blindness and some other issues.

Are they then marked as restricted?


riggerpaul  (D 28098)

Mar 21, 2011, 7:12 AM
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Re: [Para5-0] Night jump requirements for D? [In reply to] Can't Post

While I am sure no one will disagree, it is also an easy thing to send an email to USPA HQ to get their answer.

I just sent that email, and I'll post the answer when I get it.


DiverMike  (C 40024)

Mar 21, 2011, 7:27 AM
Post #8 of 56 (948 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] Night jump requirements for D? [In reply to] Can't Post

This does not make sense to me to totally disregard the requirement as stated in the SIM. It does not say "should' or "may", it says "must". It really is not open to interpretation. The USPA determined that a solo night jump is different than a group night jump and is a requirement for a 'D' license. You don't have to do a solo night jump before performing a group night jump (It says you "should" in the SIM), but you absolutely 'must' do a solo night jump to get a 'D' license.

From the SIM:
Quote:
Compliance with the Basic Safety Requirements (BSRs) contained herein is mandatory for participation in USPA programs. The BSRs represent the commonly accepted standards for a reasonable level of safety. However, the recommendations contained herein, unless otherwise stated (such as in the case of compliance with a Federal Aviation Regulation), are put forth as guidance and are not mandatory.

The main question is if by saying "must" is otherwise stating you must do it and it isn't just a recommendation.


(This post was edited by DiverMike on Mar 21, 2011, 7:54 AM)


riggerpaul  (D 28098)

Mar 21, 2011, 8:51 AM
Post #9 of 56 (909 views)
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Re: [riggerpaul] Night jump requirements for D? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
While I am sure no one will disagree, it is also an easy thing to send an email to USPA HQ to get their answer.

I just sent that email, and I'll post the answer when I get it.

Well, I've gotten some information from HQ. Actually, I've been back a forth a couple of times, and here's what I have now.

The first response was that stuff in the SIM that is not BSRs are recommendations, and so, while the solo is recommended, it is not required, and the 5 group jumps would fill the requirement.

So I pointed out that license requirements are REQUIREMENTS, not recommendations.

Further, I asked if the "(one solo, and one in a group)" was a recommendation, then are two solos acceptable?

The response to that was that the matter would have to be considered by the BOD, so it has been added to the agenda for the July BOD meeting.

No help to the OP, I know.

But at least we've gotten the ball rolling to get a clarification.


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Mar 21, 2011, 9:09 AM
Post #10 of 56 (895 views)
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Re: [riggerpaul] Night jump requirements for D? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The response to that was that the matter would have to be considered by the BOD, so it has been added to the agenda for the July BOD meeting.
I guess we will discuss and clarify it at the meeting. I have been tasked with reviewing that section in the SIM and giving any areas that need clarification or should be discussed. So I have already marked it for Safety and Training Committee review.

As far as the D License night jump waivers, I do not know if they are marked restricted, I will have to check on that. I do remember the person who requested it will not be making any night jumps period. From my understanding and speaking with other directors it has become common for S&T to grant these night jump waivers in the presence of some medical reason that would possibly become a safety concern.


(This post was edited by Para5-0 on Mar 21, 2011, 9:09 AM)


DiverMike  (C 40024)

Mar 21, 2011, 10:53 AM
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Re: [Para5-0] Night jump requirements for D? [In reply to] Can't Post

If everything in the SIM outside of BSR's is just a recommendation and there are no license requirements, can someone please issue me a 'D' license, and make me an AFF-I with a PRO rating? I would be willing to pay for it with a couple of cases of beer. It would be so much more convenient than actually gaining the experience and being tested on my knowledge.


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 21, 2011, 11:25 AM
Post #12 of 56 (831 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] Night jump requirements for D? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
As far as the D License night jump waivers, I do not know if they are marked restricted, I will have to check on that. I do remember the person who requested it will not be making any night jumps period. From my understanding and speaking with other directors it has become common for S&T to grant these night jump waivers in the presence of some medical reason that would possibly become a safety concern.

I would suggest that it is entirely appropriate and a requirement that they be marked restricted, just as we have for A license jumpers with a physical limitation that prevented them from completing a portion of the requirements.

In addition, it should show said restriction in consideration of the opportunity the D license provides to obtain a Tandem or Pro rating.


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Mar 21, 2011, 12:16 PM
Post #13 of 56 (807 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Night jump requirements for D? [In reply to] Can't Post

Can I clarify your thought?

What would the restriction exactly be? They can not perform night jumps? I am not sure what you mean?


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 21, 2011, 12:22 PM
Post #14 of 56 (805 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] Night jump requirements for D? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
We can discuss whether or not the requirement is a good one or not, forget that, I dont want to open that can.

And why not. THAT is the real issue. The logic USPA uses to justify night jump requirements at all is severely flawed. Regardless of how you feel about the requirement, the logic of the reasoning is flawed...stupidly flawed.

[sarcasm]
Oh, I know...not enough of them will admit to making a mistake and have the balls, or lack thereof as the case may be, in correcting it.
[/sarcasm]

If they want to keep the night jump requirement, at least have them come up with some logical reason for it.


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Mar 21, 2011, 12:37 PM
Post #15 of 56 (797 views)
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Re: [DiverMike] Night jump requirements for D? [In reply to] Can't Post

Mike,
I am not against your train of thought on this. I see we cant just ignore the recommendations we want to and accept the ones we like. Maybe I am not getting my thought across properly.

I think that there are some areas that we may have to self regulate and make decisions in the field that fall into, lets call it a gray area.

I am not a big fan of over regulation or under for that matter. I think in this particular case a S&TA or Director can make a call based on this person, their experience, log book,. jumps,. etc and I would back the decision either way. I like to think we can trust S&TA's to make good sound decisions or at least be able to explain their thought process. If you told me you made the OP make a solo to comply with the SIM recommendation, I would support you. Visa versa if you endorsed the D license based on 6 night jumps more than satisfying to overall concept, I would support you.

In either case, I would hope it can be articulated properly and a case made for the decision.

Again, these are just my thoughts.


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Mar 21, 2011, 12:48 PM
Post #16 of 56 (793 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Night jump requirements for D? [In reply to] Can't Post

Haha,

I knew that wouldnt slip by. Okay the rationale that was explained to me involved a D licensed skydive being considered a Master Skydiver for lack of a better term. The thought was, at the time, that person should have experienced or accomplished all aspects of the sport to be knighted with the D license accomplishment.

Okay Devils Advocate: I know the first thing out of anyones mouth is going to be; Do we require D license candidates to make a wing suit jump, a CRW jump, a skyboard jump.. The answer is no we do not.

So to boil it down, should we keep the requirement based on the thought, "we have always required it? or do we maybe require a jump in all disciplines?

or---do away with the night jump requirement all together.

Andy - why exactly do you think it is requirred? and more importantly what do you think would be a solution. I guess first you would have to agree or disagree with the night jump requirement, then justify either way. I am genuinely interested in your thoughts.
Sorry for SP errors I rushed.
Thanks,
Rich


riggerpaul  (D 28098)

Mar 21, 2011, 1:05 PM
Post #17 of 56 (779 views)
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Re: [DiverMike] Night jump requirements for D? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If everything in the SIM outside of BSR's is just a recommendation and there are no license requirements, can someone please issue me a 'D' license, and make me an AFF-I with a PRO rating? I would be willing to pay for it with a couple of cases of beer. It would be so much more convenient than actually gaining the experience and being tested on my knowledge.

As I pointed out to S&T at HQ, license requirements are not recommendations. As requirements, they cannot be ignored.

What we are left with is that the words that were written do not properly express the intent of the license requirement.

SIM Section 6.4.F.1 already mentions that the first night jump is RECOMMENDED to be a solo. This establishes the notion that what is written in SIM Section 3.1.E.4.C does not represent the intent.

I have already suggested that 3.1.E.4.C be changed to something like, "2 night jumps, at least one of which is a group freefall."

Since I agree (with Pops and others) that the night jump requirement should not exist in the first place, I won't try to justify it.

But we should still do our best to be sure that the requirements as written represent the intent.


topdocker  (D 12018)

Mar 21, 2011, 1:13 PM
Post #18 of 56 (771 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Night jump requirements for D? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
We can discuss whether or not the requirement is a good one or not, forget that, I dont want to open that can.

And why not. THAT is the real issue. The logic USPA uses to justify night jump requirements at all is severely flawed. Regardless of how you feel about the requirement, the logic of the reasoning is flawed...stupidly flawed.

[sarcasm]
Oh, I know...not enough of them will admit to making a mistake and have the balls, or lack thereof as the case may be, in correcting it.
[/sarcasm]

If they want to keep the night jump requirement, at least have them come up with some logical reason for it.

I have balls, but that has nothing to do with this requirement.

Logical reason for keeping it: skydivers being who they are tend to push the limits of safety. One of those limits is the division between day and night. Many jumpers have left the ground for a "sunset load" only to find out they are on a "near night jump," with their dark goggles, no illumination, and at a boogie. By having some training and experience in that environment previously, jumpers have a better chance of knowing what they are doing and make better decisions whether to proceed or not.

The safety rules and requirements should be written in red ink, to remind everyone of the blood of those we lost before we learned.

Personal reason for keeping requirement: I like them.

top


jsaxton  (D 26818)

Mar 21, 2011, 1:30 PM
Post #19 of 56 (758 views)
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Re: [topdocker] Night jump requirements for D? [In reply to] Can't Post

As much as I dislike saying this....Top hit it on the head ;-P

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
We can discuss whether or not the requirement is a good one or not, forget that, I dont want to open that can.

And why not. THAT is the real issue. The logic USPA uses to justify night jump requirements at all is severely flawed. Regardless of how you feel about the requirement, the logic of the reasoning is flawed...stupidly flawed.

[sarcasm]
Oh, I know...not enough of them will admit to making a mistake and have the balls, or lack thereof as the case may be, in correcting it.
[/sarcasm]

If they want to keep the night jump requirement, at least have them come up with some logical reason for it.

I have balls, but that has nothing to do with this requirement.

Logical reason for keeping it: skydivers being who they are tend to push the limits of safety. One of those limits is the division between day and night. Many jumpers have left the ground for a "sunset load" only to find out they are on a "near night jump," with their dark goggles, no illumination, and at a boogie. By having some training and experience in that environment previously, jumpers have a better chance of knowing what they are doing and make better decisions whether to proceed or not.

The safety rules and requirements should be written in red ink, to remind everyone of the blood of those we lost before we learned.

Personal reason for keeping requirement: I like them.

top


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Mar 21, 2011, 1:31 PM
Post #20 of 56 (758 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] Night jump requirements for D? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Okay Devils Advocate: I know the first thing out of anyones mouth is going to be; Do we require D license candidates to make a wing suit jump, a CRW jump, a skyboard jump.. The answer is no we do not.

I see a need for comfort in jumping in the dark - for a "Master" skydiver (i.e. D-License). By that same reasoning, I would agree that some experience in both CrW, and some level of proficiency in an additional orientation to belly to earth (back, sit or headdown - at least some level of hover control, turn and fall rate control demonstrated - and that means the belly to earth proficiency as well) also makes sense by 500 jumps.

Night - yes, late jumps you can get into the sunset and dark

CrW - absolutely (and more the night jumps IMO) comfort near other canopies including (gasp) touching them is useful a preparing in the event of wraps, etc. And it clearly makes for better canopy pilots all around. (Tongueand the temporary exchange/loss of personal hygiene and loss of packing skills is well worth the experience)

Multi discipline - absolutely - at least 1 orientation IN ADDITION to belly. A Master needs more experience in this other than flips and barrel rolls - again, IMO. Instructors also, you have to be able to have that range of manuverability that you earn with this.

Wingsuits and skyboards - no, those are gimmick specific and fun and valuable, they do not relate to basic skill sets, just specialized.

else, the C-License is just fine for anything recreational.


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Mar 21, 2011, 1:32 PM)


riggerpaul  (D 28098)

Mar 21, 2011, 2:21 PM
Post #21 of 56 (737 views)
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Re: [jsaxton] Night jump requirements for D? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As much as I dislike saying this....Top hit it on the head ;-P

Since you don't need a D to get on that late sunset load in the first place, how does the D night jump requirement help?

For a long time I didn't want to make night jumps, though I eventually did make them.

But as long as I didn't want to, nobody was going to make me do one from the late sunset load either.

Now, I suppose we could have taken off an hour early, and managed to be climbing for two hours, and so it was night by the time we were on jump run. But in that case, I'd stay with the plane.

My point being that nobody forces anybody to do these things.

Am I missing something here?


topdocker  (D 12018)

Mar 21, 2011, 3:01 PM
Post #22 of 56 (721 views)
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Re: [riggerpaul] Night jump requirements for D? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
As much as I dislike saying this....Top hit it on the head ;-P

Since you don't need a D to get on that late sunset load in the first place, how does the D night jump requirement help?

For a long time I didn't want to make night jumps, though I eventually did make them.

But as long as I didn't want to, nobody was going to make me do one from the late sunset load either.

Now, I suppose we could have taken off an hour early, and managed to be climbing for two hours, and so it was night by the time we were on jump run. But in that case, I'd stay with the plane.

My point being that nobody forces anybody to do these things.

Am I missing something here?

Maybe...

One doesn't use their Emergency Procedures on every jump, but they practice them just in case. So a little training, "just in case," is most always good. Learning something in a controlled manner usually beats learning about it spontaneously. Why is being trained for a contingency such a bad thing?

Nobody forces anybody to do anything in this sport, including participate in this sport. But the people attracted to skydiving are those that tend to push their limits. And by being trained in night jumps, people can determine on their own if they want to take on the added risk of jumping near sunset or stay with the aircraft (or not even manifest). That is making an educated decision. One also does not have to wait until they are working on a D license to do those night jumps. I barely was A qualified when I did one.

We could just have a rule that all skydiving cannot begin until one hour after legal sunrise and must cease by one hour prior to legal sunset. That would ensure that people didn't have marginal conditions with respect to lighting. Instead, we opt to educate skydivers on the advantages and disadvantages of jumping at night and leave it up to the DZ, pilot in command, and the jumper.

This has been argued to death in other threads, at a number of USPA BOD meetings, and around the DZ campfire. It was asked that a logical reason be given, and that has been done.

top


MakeItHappen

Mar 21, 2011, 3:08 PM
Post #23 of 56 (716 views)
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Re: [kimemerson] Night jump requirements for D? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Clipped from the SIM:

D License
4. Persons holding a USPA D license are able to exercise
all privileges of a C-license holder, are eligible for all
USPA ratings, and must have

c. made two night jumps (one solo and one in a
group) with a freefall of at least 20 seconds

While I applaud your asking, I cannot recommend enough that each skydiver own or download (free) the SIM. Your question is addressed very specifically and you could have had your answer in under 30 seconds.

Also, know that the only requirements - unless specified under a particular topic - are in the BSRs. Everything else is a recommendation even if it makes all the safety sense in the world.

If you look at Section 6-4 it says:
Quote:
F. General

1. A jumper making a first night jump should exit solo (no group skydiving).

The verbiage in Section 3-1.E may merely be a subtle way USPA tries to get people to follow the USPA doctrine.

There is no 'must' perform a solo jump in the doctrine, albeit it is ambiguous in Sec 3-1, if you do not read Sec 6-4.

Re Restricted licenses
I believe the licenses are marked restricted on the license sent out to the jumper.
To the best of my knowledge, all the D-license restricted licenses given in the past 10 or so years have been because of night-blindness issues. The jumpers wanted a D license to
- get a tandem rating
- apply for Wings or Freefall badges
- get a PRO rating
None of the jumpers were going to go out and do a night jump because of their limited night vision.

.


DiverMike  (C 40024)

Mar 21, 2011, 3:26 PM
Post #24 of 56 (704 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] Night jump requirements for D? [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree we should (and usually can) trust S&TA's to make safe decisions in the field.

I also agree we don't want any more rules and regulations than are necessary to keep the FAA from absorbing us.


theonlyski  (D License)

Mar 21, 2011, 3:42 PM
Post #25 of 56 (689 views)
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Re: [riggerpaul] Night jump requirements for D? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Since you don't need a D to get on that late sunset load in the first place, how does the D night jump requirement help?

I do agree with you on this one, and think that a D-# is probably a little LESS likely to bite off more than they can chew as far as jumping at sunset with dark lenses or with a dark landing area, but not because of the training, rather the experience of probably doing it back when they were A/B-#'s


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