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The consequences.

 

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diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 10, 2011, 8:44 PM
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The consequences. Can't Post

How far as an instructor do you go to make sure your graduates understand the consequences of skydiving?

In this day of people believing there is a safety net for everything, what do you feel is your responsibility to impart.

Do you believe that there is a requirement to make sure that your students understand that their actions or inactions could cause their death, or serious injury? Or even the fact that sometimes thing just plain go wrong?

I know it's part of the waiver, but do you feel it's part of what should be understood before you stamp that A license card?

What say you? And if you so desire, share some of the techniques you use to get the point home.


rhys  (D 95)

Mar 10, 2011, 9:03 PM
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They are there to have fun, so I give them fun. They have signed the wiaver and should have read it.

They are jumping from an airplane, if they are concerned they will let you know.

If they ask "can I die", then the answer is yes but the probibility is very low, why bring it up if they are not concerned?


angle228  (B License)

Mar 10, 2011, 9:13 PM
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I defiantly still wet behind the ears. (see my 50 jumps) So I obviously am looking at if from new guy eyes so take what I have to say in that respect.

I know what you mean though... what really stuck with me and made me think about the possible consequences of the sport is when I was talking to an old timer and he said something to the effect of "once you leave the plane you are a dead man until you pull."

For some reason the way he said this just hit me


talon2

Mar 10, 2011, 9:38 PM
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Heard a course instructor start with this one
"Skydiving will always have inherent risks .We reduce risk with good training, good equipment and most importantly good attitude .There is only one way to guarantee a safe skydiving experience,Pay your money, Ill go and do the jump for you and when I land Ill tell you what a good time you could have had...........but thats not why you're here is it?.....Now for the waiver"...............begins course


hcsvader  (E 2952)

Mar 10, 2011, 11:21 PM
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I grew up around skydiving. I started skydiving knowing that even if everything goes right I could still be seriously injured or killed.

I think students should have a solid understanding of what this means by at least the time they have their A license, if not before their first jump.

I agree that skydiving is a pretty safe sport, then again, sports are not that safe. I have seen ambulaces at the DZ on average of around once a month. Just like I see them at the ski hill or the motor cross track.

I don't think that most people out for a tandom or their first AFF jump are fully aware of that risk. It's very unlikely that they will die, but there is a chance that they could leave with some broken bones.


kimemerson  (D 13439)

Mar 11, 2011, 3:39 AM
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One time I overheard two tandem students (pre-jump, post waiver video watching) talking as they were leaving the waiver video viewing. Said on to the other, "Did you know you could die doing this?" And I wondered, was it Bill Booth's comments to that effect that enlightened this young woman? She had no idea whatsoever earlier in her day as she was getting ready to go to the DZ?

So, there is a potential for complete ignorance and surprise by the uninitiated. And until I heard this, I would have put money on the belief that it is impossible for anyone not to know the worst possible outcome from skydiving. I'd have put a lot of money on that one.

Back to your question. As an AFF Instructor I have always assumed the student already knows the risk, despite what I heard that tandem student ask. There is, or ought to be, a difference between the first-time tandem student and an AFF student as far as basic awareness goes. So I don't have a built-in moment or speech which addresses death and dying unless it's part of the FJC. Then it comes up a few times both during emergency training and in other, more casual moments. I usually take students out to watch canopy landings and if someone out there is not exactly shining in performance, I will discuss the possible dangers then too. I never shy away from talking about death but my one rule regarding the dangers of the sport is that we stop talking about negative stuff once the wheels are up. If I haven't covered it all by then I'm flailing. Take-off is for positive thoughts only.

So, to sum up. I do make sure during the FJC and may taper off after that. I will never pass up an opportunity when one comes up, say, if I hear some remark that demands I bring up death.


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 11, 2011, 7:25 AM
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I've seen at least dozen AAD fires, most of of which were low time (sub 100, less than a year in sport) jumpers. The unfortunate reaction from several of them that it was no big deal, the just made a small mistake and the reality of how close to death they were just doesn't seem to be there. How would you handle that?


airtwardo  (D License)

Mar 11, 2011, 7:40 AM
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This should be an interesting discussion~ Cool




When I was teaching, I would at the start by asking everyone 'why' they were there...loosened up the students and got some rapport going.

Later I would explain the 'consequences' so to speak...some taken from the speech I was given during my FJC.

At two different places I was asked by the DZO not to include that in my course.

I'd never 'sacred' someone off, but I guess there was some concern that I might.

...maybe a First jump is to early to give the talk, but I think it should be given before an A.


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Mar 11, 2011, 7:42 AM)


riggerpaul  (D 28098)

Mar 11, 2011, 7:52 AM
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In reply to:
This should be an interesting discussion~ Cool




When I was teaching, I would at the start by asking everyone 'why' they were there...loosened up the students and got some rapport going.

Later I would explain the 'consequences' so to speak...some taken from the speech I was given during my FJC.

At two different places I was asked by the DZO not to include that in my course.

I'd never 'sacred' someone off, but I guess there was some concern that I might.

...maybe a First jump is to early to give the talk, but I think it should be given before an A.

When teaching EPs, for example, how do we NOT say that inaction results in death?

Notwithstanding, I am amazed at how quickly some people shrug this off. It goes in one ear and out the other.

All we can do is present the facts. Taking them to heart is the responsibility of the student/listener.


kimemerson  (D 13439)

Mar 11, 2011, 8:20 AM
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I remember one time at the Ranch we had a two way that both had Cypres fires. (No names. I know you know some of the parties) One of these guys was a Golden Knight in waiting and the other was a highly experienced skydiver. The GK was grounded by his own boys for the day and the other guy got a chewing out from his wife. He excused himself by saying, "It was only this once." I was right there when the chewing out happened so I chimed in with, "How many times do you have to cheat on your wife before it's one too many? How many times do you have to murder someone before it's one too many?" She loved me and he gave me a scornful look.

Also, someone wiser than I once told me that in skydiving if there's a 1% chance that something can go wrong, and it happens to you, for you it's 100%.

Another time a newbie asked an experienced guy about the winds. With three Otters on the ground on a sunny Summer day, and only a Porter going (tandem mercenaries) and a ton of folks with over 1,000 jumps each all staying on the ground, it was a good moment to ask. So the kid got the $100.00 talk hitting all the right points. After he heard it all he said, "Thanks. I'll just make this my last one then." The $100,00 talk got raised to the $150.00 talk and he stayed down.

So I recognize we are limited as to what real preemptive action we can take, but maybe through anecdote we can try to prevent stupid behavior. Sadly there are times I feel the tough new pups need to see death, maybe even a good friend. While danger lurks in our sport it doesn't present itself so obviously so we can get a tad complacent. Myself, I've seen enough death and lost enough friends that I get a bit timid at times. Never enough to spoil the fun, just cautious. I've also been S&TA and filed enough death forms to almost give me some cred. when t comes to having these little chats.


Deisel  (D 31661)

Mar 11, 2011, 8:27 AM
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I saw the exact same thing once. There seemed to not be any response to a near death experience. Hell, I was more shaken up that the individual riding the reserve.

But I've also seen this in combat. You just can't really asses anyone's mental state based on an immediate observation in the thick of things. There is simply no way to know what's going on in someone's head. Especially when the adreneline is pumping. I think that it comes down to having a relaxed dicussion well after the incident is over and everyone has had time to think it through.

D


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Mar 11, 2011, 9:09 AM
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Re: [diablopilot] The consequences. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've seen at least dozen AAD fires, most of of which were low time (sub 100, less than a year in sport) jumpers. The unfortunate reaction from several of them that it was no big deal, the just made a small mistake and the reality of how close to death they were just doesn't seem to be there. How would you handle that?

I was around for one (jumper had 300ish jumps, you were probably around that day, too). Afterward he was surprisingly nonchalant. I talked to him a bit about it; I didn't get angry, but did say something along the lines of "You do know this is a big deal, right?" He agreed, but said that he wasn't that freaked out. I said "You will be. At least you should be. Might not hit you till later, but I bet it will." Sure enough, he confirmed to me a that he'd had a sleepless night that night going over the "what ifs" again in his mind.

I think it's an ongoing process that starts with the FJC and continues well beyond the point where a jumper is under supervision of instructors and coaches. There's a point where there has to be a shift from instructor to mentor - I think the "mentor" relationship can lead to a more receptive audience in a licensed (but still relatively inexperienced) skydiver. I know for me personally it took a few years in the sport to really start to get it - while I "got it" on a conceptual level, I think it takes seeing / hearing about enough incidents and close calls to realize all the different ways that the "consequences' can come out and bite you in the ass. Not that I didn't get that you could die ... but it takes a while to absorb all the possible ways that can happen.


(This post was edited by NWFlyer on Mar 11, 2011, 9:13 AM)


JohnRich  (D License)

Mar 11, 2011, 9:32 AM
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In reply to:
I've seen at least dozen AAD fires, most of of which were low time (sub 100, less than a year in sport) jumpers. The unfortunate reaction from several of them that it was no big deal, the just made a small mistake and the reality of how close to death they were just doesn't seem to be there. How would you handle that?

How about this: If you have an AAD fire because you got that low without deploying your own parachute, then you are automatically grounded for two months to think about it.


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Mar 11, 2011, 9:45 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I've seen at least dozen AAD fires, most of of which were low time (sub 100, less than a year in sport) jumpers. The unfortunate reaction from several of them that it was no big deal, the just made a small mistake and the reality of how close to death they were just doesn't seem to be there. How would you handle that?

How about this: If you have an AAD fire because you got that low without deploying your own parachute, then you are automatically grounded for two months to think about it.

I believe Perris had a one-month sit-down policy for AAD fires - can anyone confirm they still have it? I think it's a good idea to consider (as long as there are exceptions for legit fires due to incapacitation - though depending on how that happened and how the landing was, there might be a de facto grounding anyway while the jumper recovers).


(This post was edited by NWFlyer on Mar 11, 2011, 10:14 AM)


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Mar 11, 2011, 10:04 AM
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Re: [NWFlyer] The consequences. [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree. There are so many consequences that are protected from that sometimes folks tend to minimize the risk of the rest of them.

"Back in the day" we knew that if we didn't pull we were dead. I had an AAD for my first 2-3 freefalls. We knew that if we didn't perform the cutaway (on capewells) right, we were probably going to be hurt bad or dead.

Those things are still true. We've added new ways to hurt yourself (it used to be pretty rare to die landing a good parachute), and while we've cut down the frequency with which the old ways happen by machinery, we have not in the least eliminated the thought processes necessary for each person to go through. We've just reduced the consequences for carelessness. Most of the time.

Wendy P.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Mar 11, 2011, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
then you are automatically grounded for two months to think about it.

Grounding is a stupid sanction to take against a jumper, it just makes them uncurrent and more likely to screw up when and if they return.

I used to sentence miscreants to one or more static line jumps as a punishment...gets the point across but keeps them in the air while giving everyone else a chance to point and laugh at them. Experienced jumpers would have to do them from 2 grand on student gear.

For an AFF trainee I would make thm do series of hop n pops from low altitude to give them a chance to see what the ground looks like from low level.


vanair  (D 8360)

Mar 11, 2011, 10:32 AM
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Re: [kimemerson] The consequences. [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Kim, it's me Van. I know the talk, but what do you mean by $100 or $150? As you know I am probably the first experienced TI to stand down cause of winds, I need to remember that I had a canopy collapse in turbulence and break my students back. Murphy is out there, the worst tandem landing I had in over 3,000 was with the worst possible student I could have had it with. She had lied on the waiver, had Spinal bifada, (weak spine). broke her back. Good thing, healed not paralyzed. I want to use my judgment so I don't have to use my skill cause sometimes skill is not enough.


chuckbrown  (D 19538)

Mar 11, 2011, 11:54 AM
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You go as far as you need to based on the individual jumpers needs. If someone demonstrates that they "get it" save your breath. If they act like this sport can't kill them, you need to politely remind them of the consequences.

I love the "Can you teach me to swoop?" cartoon. I swear whoever made it came to my DZ and watched one of our newer jumpers interact witht the S&TA. Despite our attempts to help this guy, he ended up breaking his back after he screwed up an approach. And this was after I watched him drop a toggle on a previous landing the weekend before DSE dropped his toggle, and reminded him how lucky he was to have walked away. The broken back seems to have finally gotten through to him.


kimemerson  (D 13439)

Mar 11, 2011, 12:04 PM
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Hi Van,
I meant that Max gave the guy the class A, #1, winds talk. He hit all the right points and covered everything to tell the young stud he ought to stay down. When the kid said what he said, Max ramped up the speech and doubled his efforts and saw to it that the youngster didn't jump. I didn't mean any real dollar value. I was being colorful. I think.


buff  (D 30567)

Mar 11, 2011, 1:19 PM
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At our DZ, we make it clear in the FJC that you can die. It's stated up front when we show them the rig, it's stated during EP's in the harness, and we also have them recite "When I turn the canopy it dives. If I turn my canopy close to the ground it will dive into the earth and kill me."

Don't take that last part like a bunch of experienced folks, it's for the first jump course students to let them know the severity of the situation.

As we progress through the categories, that changes with the flat, braked, flare turns but students are reminded that jerking that toggle will hook them in. With IAD/SL, there is alot of canopy flight emphasis, more so than with AFF I think because you are with an instructor for many more jumps than if you did all of your AFF levels to perfection. Not knocking any one training method, just how it seems to work out.

We're a small place, IAD or tandem progression and the DZO is not worried if someone decides that the line they choose not to cross is the one painted on the lane at the bowing center.


Canadianfella  (D 29227)

Mar 11, 2011, 4:41 PM
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Last fall I saw Dan BC enforce that rule for 2 people within 4 days... Both were experienced, one had been involved with many cypres fires... they rightfully deserved to be grounded...

I agree with whomever said grounding leads to being uncurrent and that could potentially cause more problems, but if you look at a DZ like Perris, the jumper will likely just got to Elsinore or SD to jump instead. Further to that, I believe (correct me if i'm wrong on this one) Perris requires some extra training (emerg. proc.) before they are allowed to jump again.


hookitt  (D License)

Mar 11, 2011, 5:15 PM
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Students that don't appear to be listening can usually be brought back with a little gravity check.

I've held a book in front of me at about chest level and kept talking. When the time was right, the book would suddenly drop from my hand and land flat making a nice sound. I stopped talking and stared at the book for a few seconds then knelt down and picked it up. "woah... that was abrupt"

It gets the point across. That only works during AFF but at least for that session, they pay attention.


kimemerson  (D 13439)

Mar 12, 2011, 3:38 AM
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One time I was teaching one or another emergency routine to a small group in a FJC (might have been aircraft emergency. Not sure) when a nice, sweet looking, summertime-clothed young nubile female strolled past. I noticed I had lost the focus and attention of one of those in the class. Now, I admit I may have been a trifle brusque, but I stepped in front of the guy, blocking his view and, while I didn't yell, I got in his face Drill Instructor style (my father was a USMC D.I. and I grew up about an inch from his face) and I was forceful when I said something along the lines of, "You're going to die and you're going to die this afternoon! Those tits are not going to save your life." I managed to get his attention, and we proceeded without further issue. He jumped. He lived. And the tits went on without molestation. All was well.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Mar 12, 2011, 8:27 PM
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"
In reply to:
... Cypres fires... they rightfully deserved to be grounded ... like Perris, the jumper will likely just got to Elsinore or SD to jump instead. ...
In reply to:
"

.....................................................................

The last time I worked in Perris, they shared their "shit list" with Apple Valley, California City, Elsinore, Hemet, San Diego, etc.
Anyone grounded at one SoCal DZ would have to answer embarrassing questions at the next SoCal DZ.


in2jumping  (C License)

Mar 13, 2011, 6:08 AM
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Re: [diablopilot] The consequences. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How far as an instructor do you go to make sure your graduates understand the consequences of skydiving?

In this day of people believing there is a safety net for everything, what do you feel is your responsibility to impart.

Do you believe that there is a requirement to make sure that your students understand that their actions or inactions could cause their death, or serious injury? Or even the fact that sometimes thing just plain go wrong?

I know it's part of the waiver, but do you feel it's part of what should be understood before you stamp that A license card?

What say you? And if you so desire, share some of the techniques you use to get the point home.

All through my static line progression I was encouraged to read all the incident reports in the stack of Parachutist sitting next to the couch at the DZ and to ask questions about them if I did not understand.

This got the point home for me and taught me about all the crap that can go wrong, how to properly handle these situations, what not to do during a skydive and the consequences


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