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What does your DZ do to keep students and novices from hitting each other

 


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Mar 4, 2011, 8:18 AM
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What does your DZ do to keep students and novices from hitting each other Can't Post

Reading about the Spaceland accident brings to the fore an issue that has been on my mind a lot since we became a turbine DZ. What can we do, what should we do to keep our students and novices safe.
-The first thing we have done is just to emphasize traffic issues more during student training. This is a no brainer, but clearly not enough.
-We have also tended to keep them on radio longer. This was hard for me as I have always been in the, "they won't learn until you cut the leash" school, but clearly necessary.
-We have separated the landing areas so they do not conflict with the tandems which tend to be in the pattern at the same time. The availability of this varies from DZ to DZ as land may or may not be available.
What else can we do? Suggestions:


(This post was edited by Andrewwhyte on Mar 4, 2011, 1:22 PM)


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Mar 4, 2011, 8:49 AM
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Re: [Andrewwhyte] What does your DZ do to keep students and novices from hitting each other [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What else can we do?

No more than one student per pass/load. Extreme, yes, but it would eliminate the issue.


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Mar 4, 2011, 9:03 AM
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Re: [skybytch] What does your DZ do to keep students and novices from hitting each other [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
What else can we do?

No more than one student per pass/load. Extreme, yes, but it would eliminate the issue.
Effectively that would be the same as "Get rid of the turbine and go back to Cessnas." We need to fill our plane like all other businesses.


mr2mk1g  (C 103449)

Mar 4, 2011, 9:12 AM
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Re: [Andrewwhyte] What does your DZ do to keep students and novices from hitting each other [In reply to] Can't Post

1 out per pass on the first few jumps (though that went to 2 per pass when we were using a bigger, faster aircraft). That wouldnt have helped in the Spaceland incident though as they were well past that stage in their training.

Orange boiler suits and retraining before every day whilst a student? Already done often (and the retrain bit is a BPA requirement, boiler suit colour varies between DZ's). Continue to drum 'head on a swivel' into everyone? Again, should already be done if everyones doing their job right and we've no reason to believe they weren't at Spaceland.

The BPA system also provides for next step after A license being a general canopy handling qualification which must be the way forward to improving safety in this area... but were the Spaceland guys not doing something similar and looking at accuracy?

Perhaps that actually contributed as there is speculation that they could have been target fixated? If there's a risk of that of course that risk must be mitigated through training and even acute attention to exit order/delay/deployment altitude if necessary.

Perhaps multiple targets could be used I don't think I've seen a DZ with more than one accuracy pit perhaps there could be 2 or 3 some distance from one another and students be required to nominate prior to boarding which they will be going for and actively demonstrate the ability to remain out of the airspace of the other targets it's all practice and proof of canopy control and flying a pre-determined pattern after all. Perhaps not all DZ's will have the space for this and other measures will have to be emphasised.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Mar 4, 2011, 9:21 AM
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Re: [Andrewwhyte] What does your DZ do to keep students and novices from hitting each other [In reply to] Can't Post

 

All other things being equal, send the big boys out before the smaller students. They'll fall faster, and their canopies will fly faster, and both of those will get them down faster then the lightweights. If you put a big boy out second, he's more likely to catch up to the lightweight during the canopy ride.

The radio is a tool, not a requirement. Use it as needed. Continue to push students to cut the leash, but when they make a mistake or get close to another canopy, chime in a correct their actions.

As a radio opertaor, keep an eye on the students actions during their free-time. If the last student out is getting happy on the spirals, and a previous student is flying in 1/2 brakes, you're losing seperation, and you need to instruct them to do things differently.

Otherwise, stress the pattern and looking where they're going. Not where they're going as-in their target area, but where they're going as-in where the canopy is flying. You make two turns in the pattern, none of them are high speed or under pressure, so it's not hard to look down and to the left and back and to the left, then commence the turn.

It's also not hard to remind them that everyone will be making 90 degree left turns, so if you're overtaking or approaching a canopy from their left, they are likey to turn across your path and cut you off. The better idea is to approach or overtake from their right, so all turns are away from you.


(This post was edited by davelepka on Mar 4, 2011, 9:22 AM)


wmw999  (D 6296)

Mar 4, 2011, 10:07 AM
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Re: [Andrewwhyte] What does your DZ do to keep students and novices from hitting each other [In reply to] Can't Post

Note: I'm commenting as an individual here. I jump at Spaceland, but I don't instruct there, and I wasn't there the day of the incident.

The reasonable things I can think of are:

1. Only one student/pre-A-license jumper out low per planeload
2. If two pre-A-license jumpers are both working on accuracy from altitude, they have to have different targets. That means pre-jump coordination between jumpers, which isn't always easy (off student status they don't necessarily have to clear what they're doing).

One or both of these may already be in practice at Spaceland -- I really don't know. But it's what I can think of.

Wendy P.


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Mar 4, 2011, 10:48 AM
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Re: [wmw999] What does your DZ do to keep students and novices from hitting each other [In reply to] Can't Post

In Canada our students need 3 "self-directed" canopy flights with 50metre accuracy for their solo certificate (~10 jumps). I have always interpreted that to mean no radio, but there is nothing in the regs to say that. The ground instructor simply has to have the discipline to keep their mouth shut unless the student's actions are dangerous rather than non accuracy enhancing. Perhaps we need another level of radio (channel 2) where one instructor is just watching the novices for traffic issues. This of course is another staff burden on already overtaxed staff. The truth is I see traffic issues that concern me up to the B level. Well, I see them at all levels, but I want to focus on ignorance based ones rather than carelessness based ones. Two 30 jump novices learning how to fly their new Sabre 2s are just as much an issue as two 15 jump wonders jumping 220's or 190's for the first time.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 4, 2011, 4:49 PM
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Re: [davelepka] What does your DZ do to keep students and novices from hitting each other [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
All other things being equal, send the big boys out before the smaller students. They'll fall faster, and their canopies will fly faster, and both of those will get them down faster then the lightweights. If you put a big boy out second, he's more likely to catch up to the lightweight during the canopy ride.

...and if you do that, be sure to add in a couple more seconds of exit separation to account for the horizontal drift of the lighter guy.


jumpsalot-2  (D 33093)

Mar 17, 2011, 10:49 PM
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Re: [popsjumper] What does your DZ do to keep students and novices from hitting each other [In reply to] Can't Post

I haven't heard anything about making eye contact from canopy to canopy. I do it with other jumpers all the time, so I know it's not unusual. If you are close, you should be able to see the other jumper look at you often, as you look at them. If you aren't seeing them look, be very cautious and just give them a right of way even if you are the low jumper. Also, example a left hand pattern, don't just look left, left low and left high before making turns. Look right also, often, before making another left turn ( in landing pattern, especially off base leg to final ) swoopers come in fast from nowhere, mostly from the opposite side you are turning into. All of this is for students of course....the rest of us are already doing it..........my 20 cents worth.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Mar 18, 2011, 8:56 AM
Post #10 of 10 (868 views)
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Re: [jumpsalot-2] What does your DZ do to keep students and novices from hitting each other [In reply to] Can't Post

>If you are close, you should be able to see the other jumper look at you often, as
>you look at them.

Kicking is also a traditional signal to indicate "I see you."



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