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1.3 WL on an F-111?

 


mondo77  (C License)

Feb 25, 2011, 11:06 PM
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1.3 WL on an F-111? Can't Post

I am currently looking for a new (to me) canopy and don't have much money so most of the ZP canopies are out of the question. I was wondering if an F-111 canopy (mainly a PD 170 9 cell) would be safe to jump at a 1.3 WL. I am currently jumping a falcon 195 (F-111) at a WL of 1.13 and am landing and flying just fine on it, however that being said it is pretty beat up and is in need of retirement. Also, current jump number is 46 (hopefully 50 after sunday)

I have done some digging around and the common consensus about the issue is that the higher the WL the worse the flare. My main concerns are as follows:
1) first, is it safe to jump?
2) why is the flare worse/more dangerous? is it a higher stall point or just a characteristic of F-111 canopies?
3) should I simply save up for a ZP?

Thanks in advance for all advice/input.


sundevil777  (D License)

Feb 26, 2011, 12:10 AM
Post #2 of 24 (1401 views)
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Re: [mondo77] 1.3 WL on an F-111? [In reply to] Can't Post

My reaction is that you are likely better off staying with the Falcon, if as you say it is still landing you fine. Not much sense in spending money on a higher wingload that you know isn't a good idea. If you really need to replace the falcon and not spend much money, then you really should be able to find a low jump number F-111 canopy that is an appropriate size. If you look hard enough you'll probably find them, or save up for a more modern ZP canopy.


(This post was edited by sundevil777 on Feb 26, 2011, 12:10 AM)


mondo77  (C License)

Feb 26, 2011, 1:42 AM
Post #3 of 24 (1379 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] 1.3 WL on an F-111? [In reply to] Can't Post

My main issue right now is the canopy lifespan of the falcon. It was previously used in a demo jump with a flare and as such had a few small holes in it which I have patched with ripstop. Still, can't beat a free canopy Cool. Every few jumps I look the whole thing over and will notice 1 or 2 small pin holes popping up here and there which I will throw some ripstop on.

Just looking for something cheap ($150-200) to get me in the air safely.


DBCOOPER  (D 24112)

Feb 26, 2011, 5:34 AM
Post #4 of 24 (1361 views)
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Re: [mondo77] 1.3 WL on an F-111? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My main issue right now is the canopy lifespan of the falcon. It was previously used in a demo jump with a flare and as such had a few small holes in it which I have patched with ripstop. Still, can't beat a free canopy Cool. Every few jumps I look the whole thing over and will notice 1 or 2 small pin holes popping up here and there which I will throw some ripstop on.

Just looking for something cheap ($150-200) to get me in the air safely.

If you can only afford $150 for a canopy you should find another sport until you have more money.


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Feb 26, 2011, 6:00 AM
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Re: [mondo77] 1.3 WL on an F-111? [In reply to] Can't Post

A canopy loaded at 1.3 may be too much no matter what it is built of.

Here is some great reading for you:
http://www.dropzone.com/...etail_page.cgi?ID=47


ufk22  (D 16168)

Feb 26, 2011, 6:27 AM
Post #6 of 24 (1337 views)
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Re: [mondo77] 1.3 WL on an F-111? [In reply to] Can't Post

1, A "really cheap" F-111 canopy will be mostly shot when you buy it. ZP canopies have an almost infinite life if the lines are replaced every 300-500 jumps. An F-111 canopy will usually be toast by 500 jumps or less. The first rig I bought, 20 years ago when I was starting out and dirt poor, cost me $400 complete. No AAD, no RSL, and a canopy that opened very consistantly but was an earth-seeking missle. Loaded at .7, it got me through a hundred jumps safely. All the rules were different then. I remember being told more than once, when I downsized to 1/1 F-111, brand new canopy, that I was playing with fire. I did OK, but at that wingload my window for a good flair was increadibly narrow. This is the issue when going small on F-111. Not that the flair is "worse", just that the timing becomes so much more critical. These canopies have a steeper rate of decent and less forward speed, especially when old, so flairing a split second early or late or even flairing a bit too slow or fast gets you into either stalls or crashes.
At under 100 jumps you shouldn't be going over 1/1 even with ZP. Don't buy into the "smaller is really cooler" mindset. Put another 50 jumps on what you've got and watch for something ZP.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 26, 2011, 6:41 AM
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Re: [mondo77] 1.3 WL on an F-111? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
3) should I simply save up for a ZP?

This is your choice, you'll be much happier that way.

Loading any canopy at 1.3 with your experience is not the best idea, let alone one not designed for that type of loading. Add in that you don't even know the condition of the PD170, and you might be making a bigger mistake than previously thought.

Keep in mind that even a 1500 jump ZP 190 will out perform your Falcon hands down any day of the week. There are some ways to get your hands on an inexpensive canopy if you're short on cash.

Provided you have $200 as a 'down payment' ask around Elsinore and Perris if anyone has an old 190 or 200 sitting in a closet they might want to sell. See if they'll take $200 down and $50 or $100 a month for a couple months, bumping your budget up to $400 total.

Also, ask around the packing mat if you can help out for a few weekends stretching out rigs, setting brakes, changing rubber bands, etc. You could probably make $50/day helping out, and if you explain that you're not looking to take anyones job, just looking for some temp work to get a few buck together for a canopy, you're more likely to be welcomed on the mat. Two weekends of that will double your budget, and teach you a lot about gear in general.


monkycndo  (D License)

Feb 26, 2011, 6:54 AM
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Re: [mondo77] 1.3 WL on an F-111? [In reply to] Can't Post

Saving a few $ now can cost you BIG $$$$$ when that overloaded F1-11 lands you hard into the ground with medical bills as a result.

It won't seem like a bargain then. Wait for the right size/type canopy.

Put up an ad in the classifieds here or on the bulletin boards at your DZ in search of a closet queen that someone might sell or rent to you. There are folks out there that will help a new jumper.


mondo77  (C License)

Feb 26, 2011, 11:46 AM
Post #9 of 24 (1282 views)
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Re: [davelepka] 1.3 WL on an F-111? [In reply to] Can't Post

That pretty much seems to be what everyone is saying so I believe that is what I will do. Found a PISA hornet for around $500 so I might save up and grab that one.

And yes, I realize my jump numbers are quite low but I have been consistently doing the recommended practice under canopy (stalls, flying in brakes, flying w/risers, etc.) as well as landing (downwind, crosswind, rears, etc.). Canopy flight is Something I take very seriously and I consistently pull around 4K so I can have more time to practice. This is not simply a matter of "smaller is cooler". I have weighed the pros and cons for myself and believe that it is getting close to the time for me to be able to safely downsize.


mchamp  (D 32129)

Feb 26, 2011, 12:01 PM
Post #10 of 24 (1274 views)
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Re: [davelepka] 1.3 WL on an F-111? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
3) should I simply save up for a ZP?
Also, ask around the packing mat if you can help out for a few weekends stretching out rigs, setting brakes, changing rubber bands, etc. You could probably make $50/day helping out, and if you explain that you're not looking to take anyones job, just looking for some temp work to get a few buck together for a canopy, you're more likely to be welcomed on the mat. Two weekends of that will double your budget, and teach you a lot about gear in general.

You can get paid for stretching out rigs, setting brakes and changing rubber bands? I thought setting brakes and stretching out rigs was somewhat expected by the jumper if he/she is getting their rig packed?


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 26, 2011, 12:51 PM
Post #11 of 24 (1255 views)
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Re: [mondo77] 1.3 WL on an F-111? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
And yes, I realize my jump numbers are quite low but

Notice where I cut off your quote above, just after the 'but', and just before your explanation. I did read the entire passage, but I'll save you the trouble of adding the 'but' in the future because is unneccesary.

You have however many jumps you have. No amount of 'pratice', 'interest', or 'desire' is going to change that. It might put you ahead of another jumper with your jump numbers who made half of them hung-over and with one eye closed, but you yourself still only have 'x' number of jumps. Any reccomendations, guidelines or suggestions based on your jump numbers are aimed directly at you, regardless of how much you think you get out of every jump. One only equals one, there's no way to change it.

A properly sized Hornet is a great example of a canopy you could pick up on the cheap that will get you up in the air, and be 100% appropriate for you. It's a few generations old, so themarket value is low, but it's a good wing that will keep you jumping.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 26, 2011, 12:59 PM
Post #12 of 24 (1252 views)
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Re: [mchamp] 1.3 WL on an F-111? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
You can get paid for stretching out rigs, setting brakes and changing rubber bands? I thought setting brakes and stretching out rigs was somewhat expected by the jumper if he/she is getting their rig packed?

Many DZs use the 'pile' technique, where the packing mat is full of rigs actually being packed, and everything else goes in the 'pile'. A rig only gets stretched out when the packer is ready to pack.

Most jumpers I know do not check their rubber bands when using a packer. They do, or should, set their brakes, sliders, and cock their PCs, but otherwise just dump it in the pile.

Student rigs and tandem rigs would be an expcetion, many (most) of them hit the mat with brakes unstowed, and PCs uncocked. Student rigs also tend to come back not exactly 'straight', so that's another problem.

If a packer can jump from closing one rig right to running up the lines of another rig that's ready to flake and throw down, it saves them a ton of time and trouble. An extra pair of hands on the packing mat is well worth $10/$15/$20 from each packer at the end of a busy day. Especailly if you can get in there on a team training day, or big way event when the packers are jamming, you might even make more than that.


in2jumping  (C License)

Feb 26, 2011, 1:45 PM
Post #13 of 24 (1231 views)
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Re: [mondo77] 1.3 WL on an F-111? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
That pretty much seems to be what everyone is saying so I believe that is what I will do. Found a PISA hornet for around $500 so I might save up and grab that one.

And yes, I realize my jump numbers are quite low but I have been consistently doing the recommended practice under canopy (stalls, flying in brakes, flying w/risers, etc.) as well as landing (downwind, crosswind, rears, etc.). Canopy flight is Something I take very seriously and I consistently pull around 4K so I can have more time to practice. This is not simply a matter of "smaller is cooler". I have weighed the pros and cons for myself and believe that it is getting close to the time for me to be able to safely downsize.

And we wonder why 75% of the fatalities last year were under perfectly functioning open canopies and why we have so many canopy collisions these days.


DocPop  (C License)

Feb 26, 2011, 3:16 PM
Post #14 of 24 (1206 views)
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Re: [in2jumping] 1.3 WL on an F-111? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
That pretty much seems to be what everyone is saying so I believe that is what I will do. Found a PISA hornet for around $500 so I might save up and grab that one.

And yes, I realize my jump numbers are quite low but I have been consistently doing the recommended practice under canopy (stalls, flying in brakes, flying w/risers, etc.) as well as landing (downwind, crosswind, rears, etc.). Canopy flight is Something I take very seriously and I consistently pull around 4K so I can have more time to practice. This is not simply a matter of "smaller is cooler". I have weighed the pros and cons for myself and believe that it is getting close to the time for me to be able to safely downsize.

And we wonder why 75% of the fatalities last year were under perfectly functioning open canopies and why we have so many canopy collisions these days.

That sounds like some kind of criticism, but I don't understand your point. Can you elaborate please?


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 26, 2011, 3:50 PM
Post #15 of 24 (1192 views)
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Re: [DocPop] 1.3 WL on an F-111? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
That sounds like some kind of criticism, but I don't understand your point. Can you elaborate please?

It's a guy with 46 jumps jumping a Falcon with holes in it from a smoke canister, and he thinks that because he opens at 4k and 'practices' with his canopy, he's ready to downsize.

Let's recap, 20-ish jumps on a various student rigs, with the first ten being a haze of adrenaline and information overload. So at best he has 20-ish jumps on a ragged out F-111 Falcon, and he thinks that his 'practice' and good intentions will get him something in the world of canopy control.

It's not that hard to understand, and sadly, not that unique.


DocPop  (C License)

Feb 26, 2011, 4:06 PM
Post #16 of 24 (1180 views)
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Re: [davelepka] 1.3 WL on an F-111? [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry Dave - I had a moment of stupidity.

I just realized that he will be at a WL of almost 1.5 on the 150.

I now understand the concern.


sundevil777  (D License)

Feb 26, 2011, 4:55 PM
Post #17 of 24 (1161 views)
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Re: [DocPop] 1.3 WL on an F-111? [In reply to] Can't Post

The best part is this...

Quote:
I have weighed the pros and cons for myself

Laugh


mondo77  (C License)

Feb 27, 2011, 1:39 AM
Post #18 of 24 (1115 views)
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Re: [in2jumping] 1.3 WL on an F-111? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm sorry, but I find that extremely insulting. And if you want to play with numbers how about this? Let's say we calculate experience by jumps per month. you = 400/304 = 1.96 jumps per month. Me = 46/7 = 6.57. Wow!!!! My number is Higher than yours! Means more experience right? Learn the actual meaning behind the number genius. 75% of all deaths noes not mean that 100% of the fault goes to people with low jump numbers. Lrn2stats

Apparently I have offended most of you by asking a legitimate question so I shall ask no more.

Davelepka, Monkycndo, ufk22, sundevil777, and GLIDEANGLE thank you for the serious responses.


dragon2  (D 101989)

Feb 27, 2011, 5:22 AM
Post #19 of 24 (1089 views)
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Re: [mondo77] 1.3 WL on an F-111? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'm sorry, but I find that extremely insulting

It's not insulting at all, it's just the 100% truth. According to the current wingloading wisdom (bought in blood and femurs), a low jump number skydiver (say <100 jumps) should be under a 170 at the smallest, that is provided he/she downsized properly and has a wingload of 1.1 at the very highest, 1.0 being safer.

By disregarding post that mention something along these lines, you're just coming across as a Mad Skillz jumper.


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Feb 27, 2011, 6:26 AM
Post #20 of 24 (1077 views)
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Re: [mondo77] 1.3 WL on an F-111? [In reply to] Can't Post

More reading which might be helpful.
http://www.dropzone.com/...rum.cgi?post=4052172


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Feb 27, 2011, 8:15 AM
Post #21 of 24 (1036 views)
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Re: [mondo77] 1.3 WL on an F-111? [In reply to] Can't Post

And a jumper who just finished AFF in a week has an even higher jumps-per-month number.

How do you learn to land? Even with flight simulators for airplanes, they still require pilots to do real touch-and-gos.

Wendy P.


DocPop  (C License)

Feb 27, 2011, 8:25 AM
Post #22 of 24 (1027 views)
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Re: [mondo77] 1.3 WL on an F-111? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm sorry, but I find that extremely insulting. And if you want to play with numbers how about this? Let's say we calculate experience by jumps per month. you = 400/304 = 1.96 jumps per month. Me = 46/7 = 6.57. Wow!!!! My number is Higher than yours! Means more experience right?

No, absolutely not.

You are confusing currency (jumps per unit time) with experience (total amount of time doing an activity and the lessons learned during that time). They are not the same thing.


Hellis

Feb 27, 2011, 10:08 AM
Post #23 of 24 (1009 views)
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Re: [mondo77] 1.3 WL on an F-111? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm sorry, but I find that extremely insulting. And if you want to play with numbers how about this? Let's say we calculate experience by jumps per month. you = 400/304 = 1.96 jumps per month. Me = 46/7 = 6.57. Wow!!!! My number is Higher than yours! Means more experience right? Learn the actual meaning behind the number genius. 75% of all deaths noes not mean that 100% of the fault goes to people with low jump numbers. Lrn2stats

Apparently I have offended most of you by asking a legitimate question so I shall ask no more.

Davelepka, Monkycndo, ufk22, sundevil777, and GLIDEANGLE thank you for the serious responses.



Are you serious??!!!
No you are not a better canopypilot because you have made ~7 jumps per month.
I can do 10 jumps in a day (yes i really can) and i would still not say im good at it.

During those 46 jumps, how many times have you been flying in close proximity to another canopy and learning what the different steeringmethods really do?
How much altitude do you lose when you make a 180 turn? A 360? And i mean exactly!
What is the lowest altitude you can release the brakes from full brakes to full flight without making a dent in the ground?
Dont try it, its dangerous. Your canopy does not have cellpressure and will not respond as normal, but you should know the answer.

7 jumps per month is not very much at all, even here where the weather sucks 75% of the summer 7 jumps per month is little.
7 jumps a weekend is ok, but not something anyone would brag about.

Listen to the advices from the people here, they know what they are talking about.


LongWayToFall  (A 52639)

Feb 27, 2011, 3:45 PM
Post #24 of 24 (972 views)
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Re: [mondo77] 1.3 WL on an F-111? [In reply to] Can't Post

All things aside, I was jumping a pd-210 @ 1.15-1.2 and it was overloaded. Flares were at the limit, and the canopy was not happy. I would never recommend that WL on F111.....

Find a cheap ZP canopy like a Sabre 1.



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