Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
P/C in tow

 


SkydiveMonkey  (B 102345)

Sep 7, 2001, 2:51 AM
Post #1 of 21 (1508 views)
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P/C in tow Can't Post

I just want to find out who would do what in the case of a p/c in tow.

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What would you do if you had a pilot chute in tow?
<INPUT TYPE=RADIO NAME=option VALUE="1"> Cut away and pull reserve
<INPUT TYPE=RADIO NAME=option VALUE="2"> Just pull reserve
<INPUT TYPE=SUBMIT NAME="PollSubmit" VALUE="$lang{'SUB_VOTE'}" CLASS="buttons"></FORM>

Don't pull low - unless you are !! Smile
http:// www.skydiveupsc.com


jimbo  (D License)

Sep 7, 2001, 8:13 AM
Post #2 of 21 (1493 views)
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Re: P/C in tow [In reply to] Can't Post

Cut away and go for the reserve. The possibility of having the main open after the container has changed shape are, in my opinion, too great. The idea of dealing with 2 canopies out doesn't appeal to me.

-
Jim



Aviatrr  (D 27349)

Sep 7, 2001, 9:13 AM
Post #3 of 21 (1481 views)
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Re: P/C in tow [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, it appears that the cutaway and pull the reserve choice is far ahead right now(12 to 2).. That's the way I was taught, and that's the way it seems safest to me.. This is one of those controversial subjects - such as the RSL and Cypres debates.. Each side has their valid points, and, in the end, it is up to the individual to determine which they feel is the safest course of action..

Maybe this will open some eyes, and people will evaluate what they were taught(whichever way that may be), and decide whether or not it is the best choice for them.. I've seen too many people that just go with what they were taught, and don't really consider the ramifications..

Mike



herv  (D 28034)

Sep 7, 2001, 10:06 AM
Post #4 of 21 (1473 views)
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Re: P/C in tow [In reply to] Can't Post

This brings a question to mind that maybe one of you more experienced jumpers could answer for me. When I pack my rig, arn't I laying the main risers over top of the reserve risers? So if I didn't cutaway, would there be a possibilty of the resrve risers getting fouled by the still attached main risers? Or would that not be a factor at all? Maybe someone could help me out on that. Thanx



Kris  (D 26033)

Sep 7, 2001, 10:40 AM
Post #5 of 21 (1465 views)
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Re: P/C in tow [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This brings a question to mind that maybe one of you more experienced jumpers could answer for me. When I pack my rig, arn't I laying the main risers over top of the reserve risers? So if I didn't cutaway, would there be a possibilty of the resrve risers getting fouled by the still attached main risers? Or would that not be a factor at all? Maybe someone could help me out on that. Thanx
Good question. It won't be a problem at all. The reserve risers will deploy just fine and to the inside and back of the still packed main risers. The reserve system on your rig is designed to operate completely independant of your main.

If you still have questions, I'm sure your local rigger would be happy to give you a demo the next time a rig needs a re-pack.

Kris





freeflir29  (D 10000000)

Sep 7, 2001, 5:26 PM
Post #6 of 21 (1431 views)
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Re: P/C in tow [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's how I see it. If you cut away after launching the reserve you have a chance to grab a main riser to control it. I have seen several videos of guys that cut away first and the main deployed partially out of the bag causing main reserve entanglement. I.E. You're fucked! If you have a hold of a riser you can at least pull it down the lines to keep it from closing one side of the reserve.
I have flown two out before and it was a scary ride from 2400ft. I couldn't cut away because the reserve (for unknown reasons) had deployed just as my main canopy was fully inflated. I wasn't about to cut away the main with it in front of the reserve! If the main is behind the reserve and you have control of it I dont see a problem. Just my .02C

"Jesus Blessed me with his future...and I protect it with fire!"-R.A.T.M.
Clay


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Sep 7, 2001, 5:33 PM
Post #7 of 21 (1430 views)
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Re: P/C in tow [In reply to] Can't Post

In a situation like that there is always an intentional downplane..... Not for the faint of heart though. Talk to a JM about this. Not too many recommend it. I'm yet to have to do this so I dont know if you would be better with a biplane or a downplane canopy transfer. Hmmmm I can do intention cutaways here soon.... Nahhhhh

Flying on your belly is great..... if thats all you can do! Wink


freeflir29  (D 10000000)

Sep 7, 2001, 6:24 PM
Post #8 of 21 (1427 views)
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"In a situation like that there is always an intentional downplane..... "

I've got big balls......but I'm not stupid.....

"Jesus Blessed me with his future...and I protect it with fire!"-R.A.T.M.
Clay


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Sep 7, 2001, 6:34 PM
Post #9 of 21 (1426 views)
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Re: P/C in tow [In reply to] Can't Post

I've seen it used before with great results but the JM was experienced and knew how to do it. He's the one who explained it to me. It takes more balls to do that then I've got too.
BTW... I was refering to your 2400 foot two canopy out situtaion.

Flying on your belly is great..... if thats all you can do! Wink


weid14  (D 20292)

Sep 8, 2001, 4:46 AM
Post #10 of 21 (1405 views)
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Re: P/C in tow [In reply to] Can't Post

in reply too "In a situation like that there is always an intentional downplane"

How do you figure? why would some one put themselves in an intentional downplane. UNintentional downplanes happen -- depending on the orientation of the main as it's deploying (if it's second out). you can also get a nice stable bi-plane or a side-by-side with two out.

There are arguments both ways (cut away or not). I would opt to go straight to the reserve. I feel that the possibility of the main entagling with the reserve during the reserve deployment (i.e. risers snagging on slider and pulling it up to choke the reserve - ask Mike McGowan about that one) is more difficult to deal with than two out. Break away -- the video -- is a really good malfunction video that talks about low speed, high speed mals and two out situations.



Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Sep 8, 2001, 8:10 AM
Post #11 of 21 (1395 views)
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Re: P/C in tow [In reply to] Can't Post

What I was refering to is that if the canopies can't remain in a stable configuration then you have the option(with PLENTY of ALTITUDE) to force a downplane for a second to cutaway the main without having to worry about entanglements. I watched a student have a side by side last year that the canopies kept bouncing off each other. At one point the canopies started to surge towards a downplane and he let them go ot it. He then was able to cutway without having the canopies touch as the main drifted away.

Flying on your belly is great..... if thats all you can do! Wink


weid14  (D 20292)

Sep 8, 2001, 8:57 AM
Post #12 of 21 (1387 views)
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Re: P/C in tow [In reply to] Can't Post

well, the explanation now makes sense thanks for clarifying... you could also put them in a side by side and let it go if you wanted too. (although I would rather avoid the situation all together).



SkydiveMonkey  (B 102345)

Sep 8, 2001, 9:14 AM
Post #13 of 21 (1385 views)
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Re: P/C in tow [In reply to] Can't Post

Another thing I forgot to ask - why don't more people jump with a pull-out system? Surely this would severly limit the chances of a p/c in tow? It would help with horseshoes as well.

Don't pull low - unless you are !! Smile
http://www.skydiveupsc.com


weid14  (D 20292)

Sep 8, 2001, 9:28 AM
Post #14 of 21 (1384 views)
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Re: P/C in tow [In reply to] Can't Post

floating pud??? that's a possibility. although some of the new systems out there are nice.



3fLiEr

Sep 14, 2001, 6:31 AM
Post #15 of 21 (1304 views)
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Re: P/C in tow [In reply to] Can't Post

before anything I would reach around and try and pull the pin by yanking the bridle - this is one of the things I practice on jump run to get my muscle memory used to reaching and pulling manually - other than that - I will wait to see what my natural reaction is - I dont know until it happens - trust your senses...........

BSBD




dove  (D 26128)

Sep 15, 2001, 7:09 PM
Post #16 of 21 (1270 views)
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Re: P/C in tow [In reply to] Can't Post

The only cutaway I ever had was due to a pilot chute in tow. I am SO glad I cutaway cause the bag left my back and the canopy inflated after I did. I'd rather it float off on it's own than entangle with my reserve! The probability of the reserve knocking the thing out is too high for me to want to take that chance.



Kelly  (C License)

Sep 24, 2001, 10:39 PM
Post #17 of 21 (1156 views)
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Re: P/C in tow [In reply to] Can't Post

pull-outs have their advantages and disadvantages. one thing that was really stressed to me by a friend with 4,500+ jumps and mulitple ratings was this: having a pull-out when its winter time and youre wearing gloves isnt a good idea. Nothing has that distinct 'hackey' feel to it if ya ask me.
other than the whole "are you jumping with gloves" issue, i like the idea of a pull out. unfortuantly, i live in the NE, and gloves are not an option in the winter.




DZBone  (D 14358)

Sep 26, 2001, 3:16 PM
Post #18 of 21 (1116 views)
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Re: P/C in tow [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
other than the whole "are you jumping with gloves" issue, i like the idea of a pull out.
Gloves and pull-outs can still work. If you wear those big ski gloves, you will have a problem with any kind of deployment system. In fact, I would say that if you can't use a pull-out, you won't be able to get your cut-away handle either, imho.

I know lots of winter NE jumpers who use pull-outs, and wear gloves.

Carl



mgaillar  (B 25118)

Oct 2, 2001, 2:20 PM
Post #19 of 21 (1054 views)
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Re: P/C in tow [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is another question that might appear stupid (but didn't someone say there are no stupid questions?)...anyway, I too am new to the sport. If you have a pilot chute in tow, then the main pin has not been extracted, right? Why? Because of a tight closing loop? Or maybe a bridal snag? So, the container flaps are not open...if you cutaway, this releases the three-ring configuration. What is going to rip the risers, pilot chute, and D-bag (still locked in the container) off of your body?? The cutaway handle initiates the three-ring release, but I don't understand what is going to allow the container flaps to open and release the main D-bag. Therefore, why cutaway? If you go to the reserve, is this going to provide enough container deformation to release a main pin if the cause of the PC is a tight loop? Is it going to unsnag the bridal (depends on where it is snagged, I suppose).

My DZ policy is to teach students to go to the reserve and try to contain the PC. But I think they chose that just to teach consistency from one JM to another. I am not so sure it was because they all agreed that it was the best thing to do.

Any clarification on the cutaway procedure would be greatly appreciated!

Peace!
Matt

http://www.skydiveorange.com


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Oct 2, 2001, 2:47 PM
Post #20 of 21 (1053 views)
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Re: P/C in tow [In reply to] Can't Post

All of the reasons you stated could cause a PC in tow. Another is an uncocked/ improperly cocked PC. The reason most people say to cut way is sometimes when you reach down to grab your handle it causes enough air to spill over your back to make the PC release and boom! You just fired your reserve into your deploying main. Not cool.... If the PC stays then not cutting away is cool. But after the pressure on the container from the reserve is relaesed then somtimes the main will suddenly flop out of the container. If the main is not cut away the PC can deploy the Main behind you before you have time to catch it.
Another reason to cutaway first is if the reserve PC catches the main PC during deploymeny its propally going to exert enough force to pull the main at the same time as the reserve. If the main is cut away then all that will happen is the main gets pulled out of the dbag and it then has enough force to pull the 3 rings and it clears itself.
This is just IMHO so talk it over with your JM and decide what you want to do an that type of situation.

Be safe, be smooth, be fast..... and most importantly.... be phree Smile


mgaillar  (B 25118)

Oct 3, 2001, 9:39 AM
Post #21 of 21 (1018 views)
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Re: P/C in tow [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the insight, PhreeZone. You made some interesting points! There is no doubt that this is a topic of debate that could go on and on. I will talk with my DZ JM's, particularly the S&TA, to determine why they chose the option they did. Maybe for students they figured it was the best option. I'm curious now.

Matt

http://www.skydiveorange.com



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