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unnecessary roughness by JM

 

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loveslavender  (Student)

Jan 31, 2011, 6:27 AM
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unnecessary roughness by JM Can't Post

Hi, I am female and not a wimp and I love skydiving. I am going through AFF training right now and there are about 8 different JM's altogether. Getting different ones may be good but then they don't really know my strengths and weaknesses.. and some have different exit protocols..and some even expect a little different dive flow. ok that's ok I can adapt. But in the airplane, on L2 JM#1 moved from one bench to the closer bench to the door (we were the last ones out)... I did the same and JM#2 did the same.. exit together.. great jump. On L3, one of the JM's didn't know me and he's the type that believes making you feel stupid is the trick and so he criticized me on the ground before the jump a lot.. a little on the plane and then tons on the ground again... ok fine.. I can take it.. but here is what happened. In the airplane he was behind me as JM#2. Jm#1 moved to the closer bench (we were the last ones) and I started moving to the other bench just like on L#2.. JM#2 started pushing and shoving me back to the first bench.. he didn't just motion or move me (or tell me).. he shoved and pushed me over and over even though I got the message already he was still pushing my legs as if idk what his trip was.. I can't figure that out. Needless to say this was right before my exit. And I was so mad.. I wanted to punch the dude besides being very critical and an jerk attitude (imo).. he was shoving me around before our exit. I did ok on the level but spaced out a lot..and failed the level. I am not blaming him for failing. I just don't learn well like that.. I am hard enough on myself. Are we supposed to get rough with students right before and exit?? I told the DZ owner about it, but I am so mad I don't want to ever go back to that DZ which means I have to start over again at another DZ.

I need to repeat I did the same thing on L2 with a different JM behind me as far as moving to the same bench closer to the door and no one said a thing... great dive, etc. I was not told "stay on your bench" I was just following JM#1 on both dives. I wasn't trying to make stuff up to do.. just doing what I thought I was supposed to.


(This post was edited by loveslavender on Jan 31, 2011, 6:33 AM)


hackish  (No License)

Jan 31, 2011, 6:48 AM
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Re: [loveslavender] unnecessary roughness by JM [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you'll find that like everything in life there are different personalities and different ways to do something. So you can either sit there feeling like crap and say nothing or have a conversation with that individual and point out that you didn't feel their style was constructive or appreciated. The second choice is seldom the easier thing to do but has the best chance of a positive outcome.

If the 2 above are not realistic how about going to your favourite jumpmaster and requesting that they do your future jumps, or having a conversation with them about the incident.

I can also see that as a female in a male dominated sport something that has worked for 20 years with a grumpy old JM manhandling people around may have been less unacceptable but there are definite gender differences. Understand they are the problem, not you.

-Michael


thrillstalker  (C 40678)

Jan 31, 2011, 7:02 AM
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Re: [loveslavender] unnecessary roughness by JM [In reply to] Can't Post

if you didn't enjoy jumping with that jm, dont jump with him again. it is your choice who you get in the air with and you need to be comfortable with those people. if you aren't tell the dzo you would like to have another instructor.


stratostar  (Student)

Jan 31, 2011, 7:03 AM
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Re: [loveslavender] unnecessary roughness by JM [In reply to] Can't Post

1, Lighten up Francis. 2. It sounds to me there is gap AC movements and exit flows with instructors. No he should not have been a dick or pushing or shoving you around. Was it ever talked about between the two jumps as to what you will be doing in the plane? Maybe you forgot some of it?

However to let some instructor you think is a dick keep you from returning to that dz, says you have thin skin.... suck it up cup cake and go back redo your LV and move on to the next, you don't have to jump with any one instructor and if your assigned him again refuse his service and request another.

You never did say what the DZO had to say about it.

Having more then instructor is a good thing so your not dependent on just one. With two whole jumps there are things going on your not aware of and that could be one of the reasons for grabbing you and pushing you to your seat, can't know with out the other side of the story. Most the time we don't swap seating around on jump run, we load the correct order, again there maybe reasons you did something the first time that is not a normal operation? So when you expected that is how things are done each time you were wrong?

Regardless to say you don't want to go back is a little whinny and thinned skinned. I won't discount that there are some shitty instructors in the ranks, but your the paying student and if your not happy with how your treated then stop everything and speak up and tell him to stop acting like an asshole and you would like someone else.


(This post was edited by stratostar on Jan 31, 2011, 7:05 AM)


loveslavender  (Student)

Jan 31, 2011, 7:12 AM
Post #5 of 130 (4716 views)
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Re: [loveslavender] unnecessary roughness by JM [In reply to] Can't Post

There is a DZ around that is closer to me and only 2 instructors and they don't act like that. Whiny and thin skinned. Let me shove you around before an exit and see what you do??? Let's see if you're cool with that.


loveslavender  (Student)

Jan 31, 2011, 7:18 AM
Post #6 of 130 (4703 views)
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Re: [loveslavender] unnecessary roughness by JM [In reply to] Can't Post

The DZO said he would talk to him. This is not a JM anyone is going to change. It's really bad vibes for me now there as that is exactly what everyone is thinking.. she's a baby cause she failed. And no... he said what he wanted to.. no one told me differently about changing seats. I told both JM's here is my exit sequence so they were on the same page.. I mean the exit at the door. Other than that, he went through the dive flow yes.. no problem. Very critical and a jerk imo.. but that is how he thinks everyone learns.


(This post was edited by loveslavender on Jan 31, 2011, 8:04 AM)


Scrumpot  (D License)

Jan 31, 2011, 7:38 AM
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Re: [loveslavender] unnecessary roughness by JM [In reply to] Can't Post

For the in-aircraft movement portion and pre-exit procedure you are referring, it is (or at least it should be) protocol for the instructor who needs to move to the door, prior to him/her doing so - to instruct you clearly and very affirmatively (and assure your response & understanding) before HE/she moves to the door - that you are (were) to TAKE (ALL) YOUR INSTRUCTIONS FROM YOUR INSIDE JM (INSTRUCTOR). - Did HE/she do that? Do you recall? Do you recall the outside JM (the one moving to the door in front of you) asking if you were "ready to make your skydive"? Okay then - so he/she now gets up and moves to the other bench and starts moving towards the door. - What are you supposed to do? This is very specific:

TAKE YOUR INSTRUCTIONS FROM YOUR INSIDE (the one who retains his/her grip on you) INSTRUCTOR.

Do you recall?
Maybe you don't (which is why I am asking)...

So then - what did your inside instructor instruct of you when the outside instructor started his/her movement?

Let me/us know that, and perhaps we can then between us delve maybe just a bit further (and deeper) from there too, in effort to help you determine maybe even just a bit better - what - as to actually what may have occurred here for you.

Did you get a chance to actually sit and talk with both your instructors, in an undistracted environment, and express your concerns / observations from your point of view on this? Tell them you'd really like to understand what just happened and why - and if so, what did they say?


loveslavender  (Student)

Jan 31, 2011, 7:56 AM
Post #8 of 130 (4640 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] unnecessary roughness by JM [In reply to] Can't Post

They did NOT go over that part and I didn't talk about it. JM said "great skydiver" I have a great arch forward movement and turns.. Jerko JM did tell me about my dive flow and I failed because I locked on to my leg strap and I wouldn't let jerk JM take my hand off. I appreciated all of Jerk's comments and critique. NO they did NOT go over what to do on the plane as far as what benches to move to.. I just did the same thing I did on Level 2. I do want to re-iterate I appreciate all of the critique I can get at this stage of training. And so it wasn't that but his heavy handedness that was not needed.. with the roughness right before the exit made me really mad. I know what he said on the ground and I know what they said on the plane and JM#1 had jumped with me before and didn't see or didn't say anything. I didn't say anything to anyone but the DZO.. I repeat the JM I am talking about is a different style of teaching and most people at the DZ think I am a baby because I can't handle his critique. They don't know about the whole thing before the exit. JM#1 said the jump was great and so did the DZO. I have no problem failing a level.. but I am talking about being jerked around in a airplane before an exit. And I didn't whine about that. I wanted to cry I was so mad cause I was about to punch the dude. Just super bad vibes all around there now. Sucks. Confronting him is not gonna do any good I can tell as he is considered one of the best. That's why I didn't say anything about the incident to anyone and I only told the DZO


kallend  (D 23151)

Jan 31, 2011, 7:57 AM
Post #9 of 130 (4638 views)
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Re: [loveslavender] unnecessary roughness by JM [In reply to] Can't Post

 
15 yard penalty and automatic first down?


Flyerer  (A License)

Jan 31, 2011, 7:58 AM
Post #10 of 130 (4635 views)
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Re: [loveslavender] unnecessary roughness by JM [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi. I'm not seeing thin-skinned or whiney here at all. The actions of your instructor, if portrayed accurately by you are not only plain wrong, but bordering on a breach of safety (imo) for you. It is true that you want to learn from as many instructors as possible, because you'll learn something different from each. If the entire DZ gives you that vibe, or you believe that the DZO and others there with more experience endorse that behavior, I would defintiely seek out the othe DZ you mentioned. How many times have you heard your instuctors tell you to breathe and relax. I'm pretty sure you were anything but relaxed on the jump you described. Take care and good luck.


loveslavender  (Student)

Jan 31, 2011, 8:02 AM
Post #11 of 130 (4621 views)
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Re: [loveslavender] unnecessary roughness by JM [In reply to] Can't Post

I remember everything jerk JM said to me before the dive, in the plane and after.. I was nervous but NO he did NOT go over inside airplane movement. Neither did they on Jump #2. On L1 and L2, I just followed suit of JM#1 and that is how I thought it went.


Ron

Jan 31, 2011, 8:04 AM
Post #12 of 130 (4620 views)
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Re: [loveslavender] unnecessary roughness by JM [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Whiny and thin skinned. Let me shove you around before an exit and see what you do??? Let's see if you're cool with that.

OK, feel free.

You don't like the guy.... fine, don't jump with him. But you are whining about him.... Heck you started a post to talk about it. When people have told you to forget about it and move forward you have gotten upset.

Best thing? Tell the DZO and refuse to jump with him and then forget about it and move on.

Worst thing? Continue to complain about it knowing nothing you say will change anything and then get upset when people tell you to move on.


loveslavender  (Student)

Jan 31, 2011, 9:40 AM
Post #13 of 130 (4528 views)
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Re: [Ron] unnecessary roughness by JM [In reply to] Can't Post

^5,000 jumps and 18 yrs into it..I'm sure u can take any wild card..is that the goal on level 3 AFF?


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jan 31, 2011, 9:58 AM
Post #14 of 130 (4501 views)
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Re: [loveslavender] unnecessary roughness by JM [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
^5,000 jumps and 18 yrs into it..I'm sure u can take any wild card..is that the goal on level 3 AFF?

Ron gave you an accurate bottom line. We weren't there, and so this community only has your perception of what occurred (which may or may not be entirely accurate).

I's should be professional at all times, but sometimes 'professional' means "getting it done." And that might be perceived as being brusque, rough, over-controlling, at times. "rude" should not be.
Talk to the DZO, let him handle it. Don't jump with the guy again, and don't alienate yourself by bitching about what happened before, rather show your passion for growth by moving ahead in spite of the less-than-optimal experience.
You'll *always* be running into jerks in this sport. I loaned my rig to one newbie skydiver for a double-dozen jumps. She damaged the legstrap, filled the reserve tray with dirt, and didn't have the decency to say "thank you." Now, she's a skygod that doesn't have the time of day for anyone that ever helped her in the past. It happens. People in skydiving are like people in general society. If the dude at Walmart treated you badly, you don't stop going to Walmart, you merely avoid his department.
T'is the same thing here.

Go have fun. Jump your tail off. Become a skygod and you'll be able to one day be an AFFI yourself, and use your experience to make you a better AFFI than the one you had.
Smile. You can skydive.


Dean358  (D 28881)

Jan 31, 2011, 10:12 AM
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Re: [loveslavender] unnecessary roughness by JM [In reply to] Can't Post

Something you may want to consider is that your perception of what was happening in the plane might have been altered due to altitude. Even mild hypoxia can be very disorienting if youre not used to it.

Not saying there is ever any excuse for not acting professionally with a student. Just suggesting its worth considering.


Ron

Jan 31, 2011, 10:17 AM
Post #16 of 130 (4472 views)
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Re: [loveslavender] unnecessary roughness by JM [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
^5,000 jumps and 18 yrs into it..I'm sure u can take any wild card..

Not true... Better people than me have died skydiving. Best I can hope to do is do everything I can to prevent it.

The point is (and DSE said it pretty well, but I'll add on) that you can either:

1. Forget about it and move forward, while refusing to jump with that individual again.

2. Ask the individual why he did what he did... And either understand his reasons, or avoid him.

3. Bitch, complain, and make enemies. And in that process alienate yourself from everyone and be seen as a trouble maker.

So far, you have 6 posts on DZ.com. All of them are to bitch about this one experience, from this one jump, and this one individual.

You asked if an instructor should be rude.... People have already answered no. What more do you want?

Plus, we only have your side of the story. If I grab you and pull you from the door.... Is that me being rude or me preventing you from accidentally getting kicked in the face by the group in front of you on exit? This is just one example of a time that a "rude" maneuver might very well be the best course of action.

For your sake..... LET IT GO. Avoid him if you must, but continuing to complain about this is only going to hurt you. It will fill you with anger, it will make your skydiving experience flat out suck. Instead of thinking about how much fun jumping can be.... You already have allowed this one experience to color the entire sport.

LET IT GO and move on. You are only hurting yourself, both in others eyes and internally.


quesera  (A License)

Jan 31, 2011, 10:26 AM
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Re: [loveslavender] unnecessary roughness by JM [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry. That does suck. I also understand that it's hard to talk directly to the instructor because there's a power differential there, and obviously you want to keep jumping.

All of my instructors were awesome, fortunately, but I did find they had a lot of different strategies and opinions. I would often just ask them "what way do you do x, y, or z" and then do the jump their way. I ended up being able to test out some stuff and find my own style.

I wish all instructors were as good at teaching as they are at jumping, because obviously it's a stressful thing to learn even under the best of circumstances.

I'm not trying to second-guess you here, because I think venting is okay and obviously I wasn't there, but it might help to give him the benefit of the doubt and say "okay, he didn't know he was being so critical, and he wasn't trying to make me feel dumb." Maybe it's a lie Wink, but it might help you stay calm. If your DZ is like mine, you may not be able to pick your instructor every time, so you may need to just recognize he has a major limitation.

Also, I think it's totally legit to say to him that you were concerned about being forcefully shoved. I don't know about you, but I don't like people jostling me (or anyone!) around in the plane. That's how pilot chutes get loose and handles get moved.

Personally, I think you did the right thing going to the manager.


loveslavender  (Student)

Jan 31, 2011, 10:27 AM
Post #18 of 130 (4449 views)
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Re: [Dean358] unnecessary roughness by JM [In reply to] Can't Post

Its not like Wall Mart..a DZ I am paying a lot of money for Instruction that imo should be posistive...hit me on the helmet..slap my hand..do what u need to when Im in the air but all of u that think u can push me around in a plane before an exit my 3rd level and be a jerk on top of it clearly just like to fight as well as skydive. I am switching DZ's positive vibes at the other one and its closer and I wont have to scrap with an instrutor...will make my training funner..Im not in the army where I have to put up with iit grit through it and Im paying alot of money for this. Its supposed to be fun...somewhat yes anyway


loveslavender  (Student)

Jan 31, 2011, 10:35 AM
Post #19 of 130 (4428 views)
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Re: [loveslavender] unnecessary roughness by JM [In reply to] Can't Post

forums are for discussing issues..i am not hurting anyone on here or myself and keep on telling me to move on..I am to another DZ and u can take that and learn why students do it... I will jump my butt off and a more positive place and nothing wrong with talking about it


Ron

Jan 31, 2011, 10:49 AM
Post #20 of 130 (4403 views)
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Re: [loveslavender] unnecessary roughness by JM [In reply to] Can't Post

CrazyCrazyCrazyCrazyCrazy

You just want to bitch and complain and refuse to see anything but anger.

There is no "discussing" anything here with you. You asked a question and we answered. "No, there is no reason to be rude, but there are times that needed actions that could be taken as rude are necessary."

I asked you what you wanted, and you ignored it.

You created a profile to complain and whine..... You have ignored any and all advice given to you.

You may now cry about how rude I have been to you. CrazyCrazyCrazy


(This post was edited by Ron on Jan 31, 2011, 10:58 AM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 31, 2011, 10:52 AM
Post #21 of 130 (4393 views)
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Re: [Ron] unnecessary roughness by JM [In reply to] Can't Post

Your one warning.


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 31, 2011, 10:53 AM
Post #22 of 130 (4391 views)
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Re: [loveslavender] unnecessary roughness by JM [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Its not like Wall Mart..a DZ I am paying a lot of money for Instruction that imo should be posistive...hit me on the helmet..slap my hand..do what u need to when Im in the air but all of u that think u can push me around in a plane before an exit my 3rd level and be a jerk on top of it clearly just like to fight as well as skydive. I am switching DZ's positive vibes at the other one and its closer and I wont have to scrap with an instrutor...will make my training funner..Im not in the army where I have to put up with iit grit through it and Im paying alot of money for this. Its supposed to be fun...somewhat yes anyway


You're doing what you feel is right and no one faults you for that.


Thing is, we only hear your side of what happened...not saying you're making anything up, just that your perception of events may be different than your instructors.

It happens all the time, they see something and react to it, that you may not have seen or understand.

Should you be 'man-handled' ?... no of course not, however being new to the sport what you see as roughness 'may' not apply in the skydiving world...it IS a bit of a contact sport ya know.

With only one part of the story here, it's hard to side with your recollection of events and get all up in arms about it.

As was said several times, if ya don't like what happened...use another person or place, but let it go!

Have fun


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jan 31, 2011, 10:57 AM
Post #23 of 130 (4381 views)
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Re: [loveslavender] unnecessary roughness by JM [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Its not like Wall Mart..a DZ I am paying a lot of money for Instruction that imo should be posistive...hit me on the helmet..slap my hand..do what u need to when Im in the air but all of u that think u can push me around in a plane before an exit my 3rd level and be a jerk on top of it clearly just like to fight as well as skydive. I am switching DZ's positive vibes at the other one and its closer and I wont have to scrap with an instrutor...will make my training funner..Im not in the army where I have to put up with iit grit through it and Im paying alot of money for this. Its supposed to be fun...somewhat yes anyway

It' *is* like Walmart. You're buying training. The only thing you can't do here, is "return" it. You can choose to alienate yourself from the other dz, you can choose to be angry. You can't choose to "undo."
Or, you can choose to see the issue, avoid or fix the issue and move forward with a smile on your face.
If there are only two DZ's in the area, I *promise* you'll have problems of some sort at the second DZ, too. Your approach seems to suggest you want it all to be perfect. Training doesn't work that way. Daily...I see students respond well to one instructor that might not have responded well to another. It's a "chemistry" thing sometimes.
Maybe the instructor had a bad day. Maybe you were very amped up and perceptions are skewed, maybe your fear created a reality that isn't the same as the instructor, maybe he was a total jerk that would have stomped on your dog given the chance.
Move on. Smile. Enjoy the skydive.
If it's not fun, why bother doing it?


dragon2  (D 101989)

Jan 31, 2011, 10:57 AM
Post #24 of 130 (4381 views)
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Re: [loveslavender] unnecessary roughness by JM [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Its not like Wall Mart..a DZ I am paying a lot of money for Instruction that imo should be posistive...hit me on the helmet..slap my hand..do what u need to when Im in the air but all of u that think u can push me around in a plane before an exit my 3rd level and be a jerk on top of it clearly just like to fight as well as skydive. I am switching DZ's positive vibes at the other one and its closer and I wont have to scrap with an instrutor...will make my training funner..Im not in the army where I have to put up with iit grit through it and Im paying alot of money for this. Its supposed to be fun...somewhat yes anyway

Pfffffff you probably need to grow a thicker skin if you want to stay jumping. Maybe especially as a girl.
I've seen people getting pulled back from the door before, and there's usually a very good reason for it. And it may get a bit forceful yes, to get the point across quickly. No time to argue about stuff in the door. Fun and positive is all good and well, but this is a serious sport, and while you're not in the military, there's no room for much pussyfooting around either. If that's what you're looking for, you might want to stick to tandems or pick another sport.

I've gotten cussed out (literally) for pulling people back from incoming swoopers (standing in a swoop competition lane is not particularly safe), from propellors (doesn't look so close through a photocamera does it?), situations like that. I'm sure all those people would call me "rude". Fine with me, at least they were safe Unimpressed

You only got a few jumps, you have no idea what's going on around you yet. Don't take everything so personal now. ASK the guy why he did what he did. Don't whine about it on the 'net for crying out loud. Even if you were absolutely sure he was being rude, it's still a personal matter and I'd keep it off the 'net to keep from being seen as whiny/drama queen/tattletale, if I were in your shoes. TALK to the guy IRL, even going straight to the boss over a one time thing seems a bit weird to me but OK.

Anyway, my tip, as a fellow girl and from just knowing you through your posts and your side of the story, is to grow a somewhat thicker skin quickly Wink And jump more and post less Tongue


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 31, 2011, 11:07 AM
Post #25 of 130 (4355 views)
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Re: [dragon2] unnecessary roughness by JM [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I've seen people getting pulled back from the door before, and there's usually a very good reason for it. And it may get a bit forceful yes, to get the point across quickly. No time to argue about stuff in the door.

True, but the way I'm reading the story is that nobody (from their group) was in the door. It sounds to me like jumpers were exiting the plane and as space was opening up, the outside JM just hopped to the door side bench in preperation of the exit. She followed suit, as she had done before, and the inside JM got a little 'handsy' with her.

There does come a point where the outside JM will instruct the student to take their commands from the inside JM, and this is right before they climb out and can no longer contribute to the verbal instruction. Again, this incident sounds like it occurred well before this point, when there were still other jumpers in the plane scheduled to exit before them.

That said, unprofessional behavoir is just unprofessional. If I am correct about my assumptions, and that all of this occured up-plane, away from the door, the actions of the JM represent a failure based on the fact that the student came away with a bad impression. I'm not suggesting that every student can be pleased in every way, but it terms of a non safety-critical situation with the action in question being inappropriate physical treatment of the student, that's a failure of the instructor.


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