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S/L C206 exit: tips?

 


Floflo

Jan 27, 2011, 1:59 AM
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S/L C206 exit: tips? Can't Post

Hi,

I start a new thread regarding student exits, after the fatality in Brazil in Incidents.

I'm a fairly new S/L Instructor, with 100-ish student exits from PC6 and C206, all from a sit position at the door (Pilot chute assisted). I haven't directly witnessed any incident yet, but a few exits have been quite scary.
From these planes, I do not see any better exit option.
I've had advice from local senior instructors, but maybe instructors here have a fex tips to share?


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jan 27, 2011, 4:12 AM
Post #2 of 17 (1833 views)
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Re: [Floflo] S/L C206 exit: tips? [In reply to] Can't Post

Need to sit on the edge and rotate (twist around) sideways as far as they can (trying to get chest into the prop blast.) Legs dangling back..so they are sittin right on the edge of the left bum cheek, Head up and back looking into the top corner of the door frame. Should be now in as positive body position you can get.

Left had down on the edge of the doorsill, and on the "GO" they push down hard with their left hand and launch themselves fully around into the propblast, and into the arch..... (think vaulting over a fence with one hand on top of a post taking your weight as you do so).

Get direct bags, otherwise you will at some stage have a student on their back with a pilot chute trapped around them. Saw a fatality that was directly attributal to 206 exit, and pilot chute assisted rig.

Always scary to watch.

206 is not a good airplane for SL exits.


Floflo

Jan 27, 2011, 6:19 AM
Post #3 of 17 (1799 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] S/L C206 exit: tips? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Need to sit on the edge and rotate (twist around) sideways as far as they can (trying to get chest into the prop blast.) Legs dangling back..so they are sittin right on the edge of the left bum cheek, Head up and back looking into the top corner of the door frame. Should be now in as positive body position you can get.

Left had down on the edge of the doorsill, and on the "GO" they push down hard with their left hand and launch themselves fully around into the propblast, and into the arch..... (think vaulting over a fence with one hand on top of a post taking your weight as you do so).

That's pretty much how I instruct them. The image of the post might be a good way to explain the students, I'll try that!

In reply to:
Get direct bags, otherwise you will at some stage have a student on their back with a pilot chute trapped around them. Saw a fatality that was directly attributal to 206 exit, and pilot chute assisted rig.

Always scary to watch.

206 is not a good airplane for SL exits.

I'll look into that. I know years ago they used direct bags at my DZ, and decided to go to PC. I don't know why, I'll ask this w/e.
Thanks for your answer!


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jan 27, 2011, 10:27 AM
Post #4 of 17 (1744 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] S/L C206 exit: tips? [In reply to] Can't Post

Agreed!
Pilot-chute assisted static-line is the worst form of static-line because it allows the student too much time to roll and trap the pilot-chute.
I could tell you a few horror-stories from my early days as a S/L jump-master ...

OTOH direct-bag is the most reliable form of S/L because even the clumbsiest student cannot roll fast enough to trap a direct-bag, nor does he have enough muscle to hold it.

Rob Warner
S/L Instructor since 1982
IAD Instructor since 1984
Tandem Instructor since 1986


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jan 27, 2011, 10:30 AM
Post #5 of 17 (1743 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] S/L C206 exit: tips? [In reply to] Can't Post

Agreed!
And tell students to reach to for the right wing-tip with their right hand.

Instructors can assist by firmly gripping their harnesses and "placing" students in the airflow.

You probably already have a grip on their left lateral strap (including S/L) and can add a grip on their left shoulder. As you yell "GO!" lift their butt off the door sill and use your shoulder grip to help "square" them to the wind.


lekstrom10k  (D 3001)

Jan 27, 2011, 2:38 PM
Post #6 of 17 (1718 views)
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Re: [Floflo] S/L C206 exit: tips? [In reply to] Can't Post

We started doing static line U-206 jumps in 1969. We had them feet out side forward as much as possible. Both hand on the bottom of the door frame. They would then try to raise themselves slightly pushing harder with their right hand to turn into the prop blast while raising both arms for an arch. It worked great since. A P-206 has a very short distance from the step to the inner door surface in flight and is longer strut to step than a C-182, and seemed to draw the square canopy nose towards the plane on opening.
We had a guy that didnt take off his chest mount reservs and didnt route the static line under his knees as he jumpmastered. The girl left and the static line wiped down his front firing his reserve. It took him through the side of the plane dead under canopy. We never had jump doors then .


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jan 27, 2011, 3:55 PM
Post #7 of 17 (1701 views)
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Re: [Floflo] S/L C206 exit: tips? [In reply to] Can't Post

With a C-206, for S/L the best answer is...
Put the pilot in the right seat, install a top-hinged door on the left side, install a step.
We did this years ago and it allowed great S/L exits.
Exiting the cargo door is great for tandems, sucks for S/L.
The only other tip is keep the excess S/L in your hand and be ready to short-line an unstable exit.


Liemberg  (Student)

Jan 28, 2011, 12:06 AM
Post #8 of 17 (1656 views)
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Re: [Floflo] S/L C206 exit: tips? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I haven't directly witnessed any incident yet, but a few exits have been quite scary.

1. Get direct bag deployment systems.

Though watching a student under a slow turning canopy with one foot behind a riser can be scary, watching a student with a death grip on his pilot chute is worse...

2. Teach a 'Delta position' rather than a 'Big X' for the exit.

(angle of the arms on the torso should be 45 degrees in stead of 90 or more degrees.)

But whatever you do and teach - 'brains will melt in the door' every now and then....


Floflo

Jan 28, 2011, 1:27 AM
Post #9 of 17 (1647 views)
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Re: [ufk22] S/L C206 exit: tips? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
With a C-206, for S/L the best answer is...
Put the pilot in the right seat, install a top-hinged door on the left side, install a step.

Unfortunately, this is not an option for us. DGAC (our FAA equivalent) authorization process for mods like that is a real nightmare.

In reply to:
The only other tip is keep the excess S/L in your hand and be ready to short-line an unstable exit.

I will definitely try that, thanks.


Floflo

Jan 28, 2011, 1:31 AM
Post #10 of 17 (1646 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] S/L C206 exit: tips? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Agreed!
Pilot-chute assisted static-line is the worst form of static-line because it allows the student too much time to roll and trap the pilot-chute.
I could tell you a few horror-stories from my early days as a S/L jump-master ...

OTOH direct-bag is the most reliable form of S/L because even the clumbsiest student cannot roll fast enough to trap a direct-bag, nor does he have enough muscle to hold it.

But does direct bag leave enough time to the student to actually "feel" something, and do his/her exercises?


Floflo

Jan 28, 2011, 1:36 AM
Post #11 of 17 (1643 views)
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Re: [Liemberg] S/L C206 exit: tips? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Teach a 'Delta position' rather than a 'Big X' for the exit.

(angle of the arms on the torso should be 45 degrees in stead of 90 or more degrees.)

What is the point? Will that not make it easier for the student to go head low?

In reply to:
But whatever you do and teach - 'brains will melt in the door' every now and then....

I had already noticed! Wink


Liemberg  (Student)

Jan 28, 2011, 2:39 AM
Post #12 of 17 (1636 views)
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Re: [Floflo] S/L C206 exit: tips? [In reply to] Can't Post

The student that goes 'head low' usually bends at the hips / remains bended at the hips.

The advantage of a good Delta is that you are strongly reducing one axis of all the different ones your student can start to tumble on for theoretically a Delta will give some forward movement on the relative wind - all other things being equal.

Even more important (from my experience) is to have them turn in the right direction ("eyes on the prop") as much as possible when they are still in the door 'balancing on their left bum'.
Now that can be quite a hassle when you drop the first of five big blokes so sometimes they leave with a 90 degree angle on the relative wind but that is not so good.

However, invariably they will leave with some momentum and have to turn towards the relative wind; the less they have to turn (since they are already turned almost completely) the better the results will be...

Most important IMO is that you are not really teaching freefall skills here, this is strictly 'survival mode' - they are opening a parachute and have only one extra. From their own experience they didn't built the confidence that parachutes work most of the time so they tend to be rather preoccupied with mortality questions. Their limbic brain throws a dice which decides if they are going to fight, fly or freeze.

When the outcome is that they freeze you want them to at least freeze in a stable body position... Cool

Did I or someone else already mention that you guys should get rid of the pilotchute -assist and switch to direct bag? You will still be seeing crazy stuff but the large majority will end up frantically kicking their legs under open student parachutes with a couple of twists. That is a much better outcome than every now and then one with a bridle in the armpit and main suspension lines around the reserve container...

Of course, My $0,02 and YMMV...


Floflo

Jan 28, 2011, 3:11 AM
Post #13 of 17 (1633 views)
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Re: [Liemberg] S/L C206 exit: tips? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The advantage of a good Delta is that you are strongly reducing one axis of all the different ones your student can start to tumble on for theoretically a Delta will give some forward movement on the relative wind - all other things being equal.

I think I get it, but:
- Will they not be less stable this way?
- After a few jumps, we get rid of the S/L... They're already quite stressed, and you make them learn a different body position. Is it worth it?

In reply to:
Did I or someone else already mention that you guys should get rid of the pilotchute -assist and switch to direct bag?

I think I read that somewhere, yes. Wink


Liemberg  (Student)

Jan 28, 2011, 5:20 AM
Post #14 of 17 (1621 views)
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Re: [Floflo] S/L C206 exit: tips? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
- Will they not be less stable this way?
- After a few jumps, we get rid of the S/L... They're already quite stressed, and you make them learn a different body position. Is it worth it?

They will be more stable this way - though it's not that much of a difference for whatever they do with their arms, doing something wrong with their legs will always have more effect since the legs are much larger. However, the lower / closer to the body the arms are at the opening, the less risk there is for them interfering with the static line. (If I was sure that all of them just came for a couple of static line jumps, I would rather have them go out the door military style with their back towards the relative wind, 'sitting with their hands in their lap'...)

I'm not suggesting you should retrain those that already made one ore more jumps - that is an unnecessary complication. But for new students it is what you tell them it is, so starting with a Delta rather than a 'big X' is not a problem. As to moving on into freefall, there the problem of 'lights on but nobody home' is already greatly reduced at that stage and since they are continuing it will be just a minor change compared to all the other stuff they will have to learn further down the road.

These static line jumps are all about 'I just started to open parachute number one, now I have to count while waiting for the shock, check if it's good enough to keep, solve minor problems and land it'. All one can learn about freefall there will be focused on the moment of the opening, the rest is 'learning to swim by submerging yourself in the water for 3 seconds'...

Just think of eating an elephant - one shouldn't eat more than a mouthful at the time... Wink


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jan 28, 2011, 12:10 PM
Post #15 of 17 (1576 views)
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Re: [Floflo] S/L C206 exit: tips? [In reply to] Can't Post

" ... But does direct bag leave enough time to the student to actually "feel" something, and do his/her exercises?"

.....................................................................

Most S/L students are so scared and suffering such tremendous sensory-overload that they are not going to see anything, hear anything or learn anything during two more seconds before the (S/Led) canopy opens.

As for them "completing their exercises..." the best they can do is pull a dummy handle. Half the time, the main container is empty before they grab the handle. So all you are doing is measuring if they will complete a routine while scared.
But practice ripcord pulls are the most difficult way to teach a freefall skill. Far wiser to toss them in wind tunnel - for a few minutes with an AFF Instructor. That is the best way to learn how to pull a main handle.


Floflo

Jan 31, 2011, 2:21 AM
Post #16 of 17 (1484 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] S/L C206 exit: tips? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
But practice ripcord pulls are the most difficult way to teach a freefall skill. Far wiser to toss them in wind tunnel - for a few minutes with an AFF Instructor. That is the best way to learn how to pull a main handle.

Probably, when you have an AFF instructor and / or a wind tunnel nearby (and a student having the willingness and money to do it).
This not our case here, therefore I have to teach the "old-fashionned" way...Blush


skydived19006  (D 19006)

Feb 2, 2011, 9:49 AM
Post #17 of 17 (1425 views)
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Re: [Floflo] S/L C206 exit: tips? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know the answer, hence the question. Would IAD be a better option than PC assist SL out of the cargo door?



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