Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
Non x-braced elliptical canopies

 

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danielcroft  (D 31103)

Jan 2, 2011, 11:56 AM
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Non x-braced elliptical canopies Can't Post

So, I'm starting to research fully elliptical canopies for this year as I'll be going that way. I want to know what's out there so I can demo them or at least understand what the range is. I'd appreciate anyone chiming in with experience or suggestions:

Neos (a bit much for me I think)

Katana
XF2

Mamba?
Nitro/Nitron
Stilletto

Samurai

I'm learning HP landings so I'm looking for something with a reasonable recovery arc. I currently fly a Sabre 2 @ 1.5. I've flown a Katana 135 but haven't flown anything else on this list. I have friends with XF2 119s and a Samurai 120 who have said I can try them out.

Thanks in advance.


jtiflyer  (D 27430)

Jan 2, 2011, 12:07 PM
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Re: [danielcroft] Non x-braced elliptical canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

 The neos is technically ARC braced (3 cross braced but only the center 3 cells). You can swoop any canopy, but learning HP canopy piloting I would recomend either the Sabre2 or the Katana.


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Jan 2, 2011, 12:49 PM
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Re: [jtiflyer] Non x-braced elliptical canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought that the Neos would be a bit much because of the center bracing on that canopy. It's probably a step above a KA or an XF2. I'm leaning towards the XF2 because it's allegedly more versatile but I haven't even jumped on yet so I'm not sure. I have been jumping Sabre2s for a while and have progressed up to doing 180s.


DocPop  (C License)

Jan 2, 2011, 12:51 PM
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Re: [danielcroft] Non x-braced elliptical canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

I went from a Sabre2 150 to a Katana 135 and really liked the change. I felt like I wanted more performance than the Sabre2 could give me, but I have PLENTY to learn on the Katana.

It seemed like quite a big jump in performance. I went back to basics and did a lot of high pulls and canopy drills up high when I first got it.

The only other experience I could add is that I jumped a Crossfire2 139 and to me it didn't seem as aggressive as the Katana. It seemed slower and less willing to dive.

Hope there is something in there that helps.


(This post was edited by DocPop on Jan 2, 2011, 2:46 PM)


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Jan 2, 2011, 12:56 PM
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Re: [DocPop] Non x-braced elliptical canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm planning on getting a demo KA120 at least to try out and I'll then have a direct comparison to the XF2 119s I'm going to try out. I've flown the KA135 and it definitely felt much more solid in a riser dive compared to the SA2 but I'd like to try something at a slightly higher loading.

Every time I change canopies, I go back to square one on my HP landings, starting with straight in approaches.


(This post was edited by danielcroft on Jan 2, 2011, 12:56 PM)


Freefly710  (D 29094)

Jan 5, 2011, 5:26 AM
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Re: [danielcroft] Non x-braced elliptical canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

You can learn alot about high performance approaches on your Sabre2. Still a long(er) recovery arc and much more forgiving if you have to abort, etc.

But I like my Katana, more than the Crossfire or Mamba. Your mileage may vary....


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Jan 5, 2011, 6:35 PM
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Re: [Freefly710] Non x-braced elliptical canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

I've seen comments saying that the mamba is pretty unstable on opening? I'll also be able to try a Stiletto 120, not great for swooping (at my w/l) but should be interesting anyway.


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Jan 5, 2011, 6:46 PM
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Re: [danielcroft] Non x-braced elliptical canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Dan CF enough said. Great canopy for where you are atCool


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Jan 5, 2011, 7:17 PM
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Re: [ozzy13] Non x-braced elliptical canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Heh, thanks mate. Are you selling yours? Laugh


MagicGuy  (D 30470)

Jan 6, 2011, 7:21 PM
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Re: [danielcroft] Non x-braced elliptical canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

I've flown most of the non-crossbraced elliptical canopies that you mentioned and I ended up on a Katana 107. My previous canopy was a Sabre2 120.

The transition from the Sabre2 to the Katana was very smooth for me. That being said, the Katana is a very high performance canopy that will literally take every second of your time and awareness, from opening to landing, in order to not hurt yourself.

The openings can be a little bit sketchy in the snivel, but overall very good and VERY soft. But watch out for linetwists - they get fast and divey real quick. Front riser pressure is super soft and I felt that the response on rears was very good. This isn't the best canopy to get you back from a long spot, though. I had more off landings with my Katana than any other canopy up to this point.

Best advice - try them all before deciding on one. To each his own. I enjoyed my Katana and learned a whole lot about high performance canopy flight in general, nevermind just the landings. But that was me and my progression.. and what suited me best.

Good luck man. Stay safe out there.


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Jan 6, 2011, 8:25 PM
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Re: [danielcroft] Non x-braced elliptical canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Heh, thanks mate. Are you selling yours? Laugh

well everything is for sale. They are 109s :)


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Jan 6, 2011, 9:17 PM
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Re: [MagicGuy] Non x-braced elliptical canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks a lot for your comments MagicGuy.

I've been doing as much reading as I can on what's out there, watching videos, talking to friends who've flown the canopies I'm thinking of.

It's funny because the two guys who have been helping me most closely with my canopy progression and learning to swoop, one is die hard katana and the other loves his crossfire 2.

I will, without a doubt, demo both the XF2 and the KA. I'll more than likely fly a Sam 120 and a Stiletto 120 just for laughs (Sam won't fit in my container so no go).

I certainly appreciate your comments. I know PD likes to say that the KA has a very wide flight envelope and a lot of people believe that it's ground hungry (which it is, relatively speaking, in full flight), the impression that I got was that the KA was just as capable of getting back from a long spot but you can't afford to mess around with it. That is, it takes a lot more management from the pilot than say an XF2 at the same loading to achieve the same results, but it is capable of those results given an experienced pilot who knows the canopy.

The friend of mine who loves his XF2 says that a lot of people use the KA to "cheat" when swooping too. He says they just hook a quick turn and then just let the KA recovery arc do the work. Laugh


(This post was edited by danielcroft on Jan 6, 2011, 9:19 PM)


stayhigh  (F 111)

Jan 7, 2011, 6:07 AM
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Re: [danielcroft] Non x-braced elliptical canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Ka is alot easier to swoop than Xf.

They are just simply different wing. I think most will like KA over Xf. Style of flight has changed over the years and people want something with huge range on rear risers, and KA has it, and Xf doesn't.

also alot of people will say that whatever you get on now will determine what kind of x-braced canopy you will end up.
KA= Velo
Xf= JVX or Xaos.

as goes for the opening, I had better openings with KA than XF. Softer and better heading.


pjc  (D 104521)

Jan 7, 2011, 9:57 AM
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Re: [stayhigh] Non x-braced elliptical canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
also alot of people will say that whatever you get on now will determine what kind of x-braced canopy you will end up.
KA= Velo
Xf= JVX or Xaos.

Strange - I went from XF to Velo. Never jumped a Katana, JVX or Xaos... Must've got bad advice :-)


BMFin

Jan 7, 2011, 10:21 AM
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Re: [stayhigh] Non x-braced elliptical canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Ka is alot easier to swoop than Xf.

They are just simply different wing. I think most will like KA over Xf. Style of flight has changed over the years and people want something with huge range on rear risers, and KA has it, and Xf doesn't.

also alot of people will say that whatever you get on now will determine what kind of x-braced canopy you will end up.
KA= Velo
Xf= JVX or Xaos.

as goes for the opening, I had better openings with KA than XF. Softer and better heading.

I agree completely. XF has a smaller marginal for a good recovery and it is harder to swoop.

I tested the NEOS last summer briefly and IMO it felt much more like velocity than what I was expecting from an Icarus canopy. Much steeper trim and longer recovery arc.

If I could choose my progression again, I think I would want to learn the fundamentals on Sabre2 and then move on to NEOS. I dont think I would go for the XF2 at all..


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Jan 7, 2011, 1:27 PM
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Re: [BMFin] Non x-braced elliptical canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

So, most of the time I've seen descriptions of the XF2, people place its recovery arc well above a Sabre 2, is that not the case?


BMFin

Jan 7, 2011, 2:08 PM
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Re: [danielcroft] Non x-braced elliptical canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

The smallest sabre2 I have flown was 120, so I can't really compare. I would guess they are about the same. Many someone else knows better?


craigbey  (C 31991)

Jan 7, 2011, 2:44 PM
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Re: [danielcroft] Non x-braced elliptical canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'm learning HP landings so I'm looking for something with a reasonable recovery arc. I currently fly a Sabre 2 @ 1.5.

Demo all you can, and then continue flying your Sabre2. At your wing loading, there is probably still a lot of untapped performance in that canopy.
Whatever canopy you choose, the goal is to get the most out of it. You need to learn how to do that on what you have.


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Jan 7, 2011, 3:24 PM
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Re: [BMFin] Non x-braced elliptical canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm hoping someone knows better and is willing to post about it. Smile


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Jan 7, 2011, 3:29 PM
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Re: [craigbey] Non x-braced elliptical canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

I know I can learn more from my current canopy, I also know very few people who *actually* get everything possible out of their canopies. Honestly, the reason I want an elliptical is because the KA135 I flew felt way more stable in a dive than my SA2. That and the wider control range was good.

I'm not saying my reasoning is the best in the world but it's not as bad as "I'll be cooler if I have an elliptical canopy", is it? Blush


(This post was edited by danielcroft on Jan 7, 2011, 3:30 PM)


AggieDave  (D License)

Jan 7, 2011, 3:36 PM
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Re: [danielcroft] Non x-braced elliptical canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm not saying my reasoning is the best in the world but it's not as bad as "I'll be cooler if I have an elliptical canopy", is it? Blush

You're cooler when you toss a bomber swoop, hitting the same gates and going past the punks who downsized too fast too soon on your "uncool" canopy!


trigger  (D 101390)

Jan 8, 2011, 2:14 AM
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Re: [danielcroft] Non x-braced elliptical canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Like Aggiedave said +1.
Learn to fly the SabreWink


BMFin

Jan 8, 2011, 2:49 AM
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Re: [danielcroft] Non x-braced elliptical canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
the reason I want an elliptical is because the KA135 I flew felt way more stable in a dive than my SA2. That and the wider control range was good.

Wider range is safer. Try out that XF2 your buddy has and see what you think. You will find out that KA has much wider range than XF2.


rtroup  (D License)

Jan 8, 2011, 7:20 AM
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Re: [AggieDave] Non x-braced elliptical canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Most people can learn a lot more on their canopies before they decided to downsize or go elliptical. That I agree 100%. But it doesn't necessarily mean they couldn't handle the switch. Dan is a great canopy pilot for his jump numbers. He knows more about canopy flight than most people with a 1000 jumps and that knowledge shows in his canopy flying. Sure he could learn more on his sabre 2 but he could easily handle the katana or xf2. Dan understand the step he is taking knows he won't be complacent about it.

Dan, (waves hand) the xf2 is not the canopy you are looking for. Tongue


craigbey  (C 31991)

Jan 9, 2011, 8:24 AM
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Re: Non x-braced elliptical canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Many jumpers are in a position where they could safely move to another canopy, platform or buy some new component (RDS, etc.) that would help them swoop farther and faster or simply make the canopy fly more efficiently.

What do the folks at the very top of the game do when they 'need more performance'. Most of them are already flying the ultimate HP wings that have been tricked out beyond the original designs. They have the very best gear for the specifc purpose of HP canopy flight and swooping.

There are constant evolutionary improvements in the gear and canopies, but I suspect that refining their technique provides the most results for HP pilots. That process takes hundreds and thousands of jumps -- on the same platform -- to translate into real results.


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