Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
Equipment weight limit

 


Zywo44  (B 35721)

Dec 31, 2010, 9:26 PM
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Equipment weight limit Can't Post

Hi everyone,

So I'd like to know more about the weight/speed limit on my rig. I have just got it fully set-up and ready to jump. I have an exit weight of 215.5 lbs and my canopy says not to exceed 209 lbs and 130 knots. I always deploy in a stable belly-down position after tracking (~ 110 knots). The canopy is a Sabre 1 DOM 4/92 with 600 jumps. I also have mini-risers on this new rig. My rigger says my weight should not be an issue. Does everyone agree with this? or is there potential for canopy/riser damage? Any insight would be great,

Thanks all,

- Zywo44


gilead1  (D 26)

Jan 1, 2011, 6:20 AM
Post #2 of 22 (1494 views)
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Re: [Zywo44] Equipment weight limit [In reply to] Can't Post

Something Does not sound right...
What size the canopy is?

according to PD the max weight for saber 1 will load the canopy at about 1.5.... do you really want to load your canopy more than 1.5 with 40 jumps???!!!

what rigger will ignore manufacturer limit weight or will recommend a newbie to load any canopy to the max?

I'm sure i miss something but I strongly suggest you to consult an experienced instructor before jumping this gear

Gilead


mrbiceps  (D License)

Jan 1, 2011, 6:37 AM
Post #3 of 22 (1484 views)
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Re: [gilead1] Equipment weight limit [In reply to] Can't Post

All of the sabre 1 canopies had weird weight recommendations like that , my sabre 170 had a max weight from memory of 170 pounds. Now that is no where near the weight rec these days of a sabre 2 170 that is 255 pounds, don't forget that sabre 1 s were the first of the high performance zp canopies of their time . It's ok to ignore what the label says


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
Moderator
Jan 1, 2011, 7:17 AM
Post #4 of 22 (1459 views)
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Re: [Zywo44] Equipment weight limit [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hi everyone,

So I'd like to know more about the weight/speed limit on my rig. I have just got it fully set-up and ready to jump. I have an exit weight of 215.5 lbs and my canopy says not to exceed 209 lbs and 130 knots. I always deploy in a stable belly-down position after tracking (~ 110 knots). The canopy is a Sabre 1 DOM 4/92 with 600 jumps. I also have mini-risers on this new rig. My rigger says my weight should not be an issue. Does everyone agree with this? or is there potential for canopy/riser damage? Any insight would be great,

Thanks all,

- Zywo44



I think I understand why this person told you it would not be an issue, but they are wrong. I am guessing they figured that your being 6 lbs over is no big deal. The fact of the matter is you must consider the "All Up Weight" or AUW which is not just your naked on a scale weight but the weight of the container, reserve, ever thing that is suspended under that canopy at the time of it's use. If you weigh 215 lbs without your rig on and then figure in roughly 20-30 lbs for your rig and associated clothing/ gear you would be wearing you are now roughly around 235-245 lbs AUW.

At 40 jumps, you shouldn't even be any where near the wing loading that this set up puts you in. That alone is enough to tell you it is not a good idea. Exceeding the manufacturers recommendations for weight loading is not a good idea either for a few reasons.

1, the manufacturers set a weight recommendation so that the flight characteristics and most importantly, the ability for the canopy to flare and come to a stop are not only consistent but survivable (not controlled crashes).

2, the potential for the canopy or any part of the canopy's components to fail on opening goes up exponentially as you overload it's designed weight limit. While the chances are the canopy may do well without issue for several/many jumps, your body may not as the openings may be brutally hard and or fast, especially on Sabre 1 which is already known to open hard as a given.

The solution to your problem is to find a larger canopy that is better suited to your weight so that your wing loading is appropriate to your current skill level. You should consult with your former instructors on this or your S&TA, as they know better than anyone what your needs are to put you safely under an appropriately sized canopy.


PiLFy  (A License)

Jan 1, 2011, 7:34 AM
Post #5 of 22 (1447 views)
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Re: [Zywo44] Equipment weight limit [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hi everyone,

So I'd like to know more about the weight/speed limit on my rig. I have just got it fully set-up and ready to jump. I have an exit weight of 215.5 lbs and my canopy says not to exceed 209 lbs and 130 knots. I always deploy in a stable belly-down position after tracking (~ 110 knots). The canopy is a Sabre 1 DOM 4/92 with 600 jumps. I also have mini-risers on this new rig. My rigger says my weight should not be an issue. Does everyone agree with this? or is there potential for canopy/riser damage? Any insight would be great,

Thanks all,

- Zywo44

Hi. Congratulations on getting your own rig! I'm envious. You might not like to hear this. My Newbie opinion goes w/Gilead on this one. My understanding is the original Sabres are known for harder openings. I've read several complaints to that affect while searching for my first rig. Add to that that your chute is nineteen years old now. Do you really want to exceed the manufacturer's recommendations? You don't say what size canopy. So, I don't know the wingloading. The thing is. Effectively, you're almost as green as I am. This sport seems to be littered w/stories of guys who pushed too far, too soon, & paid the price. On sketchy, almost 20year old equipment? It sounds a bit rash to me. Were the weight limit charts back then the same as now? Were there different limits according to skill level? Worst case scenario? You find a more suitable Main to swap out the Sabre1 for. Paying an extra $1,000-$1500 now, beats laying shattered on the field next Spring. That's a lot more expensive, & possibly life-altering. Sorry, but that's my gut feeling on this. Good Luck, & enjoy whatever you jump next season.


(This post was edited by PiLFy on Jan 1, 2011, 7:40 AM)


Zywo44  (B 35721)

Jan 1, 2011, 8:19 AM
Post #6 of 22 (1416 views)
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Re: [Zywo44] Equipment weight limit [In reply to] Can't Post

So some people are misunderstanding the situation. My EXIT weight (gear and all) is ~215 lbs. My canopy is a Sabre 1 190. This creates a wing loading of about 1.13. Does this change things now for some of your replies?


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jan 1, 2011, 9:06 AM
Post #7 of 22 (1395 views)
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Re: [Zywo44] Equipment weight limit [In reply to] Can't Post

That's better!


Zywo44  (B 35721)

Jan 1, 2011, 9:15 AM
Post #8 of 22 (1386 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Equipment weight limit [In reply to] Can't Post

Jump-able in your opinion? Given the weight/speed limit recommendations for the canopy?


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jan 1, 2011, 9:19 AM
Post #9 of 22 (1382 views)
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Re: [mrbiceps] Equipment weight limit [In reply to] Can't Post

Ignoring labels is unwise.

However, let me expand your historical knowledge.
When Sabre 1 was introduced, it was the first (or second) American canopy made of zero porosity fabric. Ergo, it was one of the first canopies that could be loaded more than one pound per square foot and still keep you ankles intact.
I have hundreds of jumps on Sabre 1-170, 150 and 135. I figured out that I am too fat to jump a Sabre 1-135. The practical limit on wing-loading a Sabre 1 is around 1.5 pounds per square foot, If you load a Sabre 1 heavier than that, the glide ratio and flare suffer ... and so will your ankles.

As for Sabre 1s opening hard???? That was what the market demanded back in the late 1980s. Remember that the previous generation of mains (Pegasus, Comet, Fury, Pursuit, Cruislite, PD 7-cell, etc.) were all 7-cells, indistinguishable form reserves at arm's length. Reserves open fast, which is good. Since the dominant jump planes were Cessnas - that struggle d to climb above 7,000 or 9,000 feet, most skydivers wanted to get the maximum freefall out of every jump, so they routinely quit holding hands at 3,500 feet (Nudge! Nudge! Wink! Wink! Say no more! Say no more!) and waved-off at 2,000 feet.

Back then, cameramen were a hardy bunch, who bolted bulky cameras to their home-made helmets and strapped VCRs to their chests.

Since then cameramen have demanded softer openings. PD responded by sewing larger sliders for Sabre 1s.
Since then faster-climbing, turbo-prop airplanes have made exit altitudes of 12,00 or 14,000 feet routine, so there is less pressure to extract the last second of freefall from evey jump and less need for fast-opening mains.

All that being said, Sabre 1s are still decent main canopies for casual sport jumpers.


Premier likestojump  (D License)

Jan 1, 2011, 5:33 PM
Post #10 of 22 (1310 views)
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Re: [Zywo44] Equipment weight limit [In reply to] Can't Post

as it has been pointed out, the Sabre was an early ZP canopy. As such the original placard was just on an F111 canopy - weight limited to 1:1 WL.

alter on, the Sabres got a new placard, which in the case of the 190 said :
Advanced : 209lbs, Expert 219lbs, Max Wt 249 lbs.

so no, I don't think you are going past what the manufacturer recommendations. I do think that you would have been safer to keep your wingloading closer to 1:1 ...

I am attaching a copy of a label.
Attachments: IMG_3441.JPG (252 KB)


PiLFy  (A License)

Jan 1, 2011, 6:30 PM
Post #11 of 22 (1294 views)
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Re: [likestojump] Equipment weight limit [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
as it has been pointed out, the Sabre was an early ZP canopy. As such the original placard was just on an F111 canopy - weight limited to 1:1 WL.

alter on, the Sabres got a new placard, which in the case of the 190 said :
Advanced : 209lbs, Expert 219lbs, Max Wt 249 lbs.

so no, I don't think you are going past what the manufacturer recommendations. I do think that you would have been safer to keep your wingloading closer to 1:1 ...

I am attaching a copy of a label.

215#s places him in Expert territory. A tall order for someone w/only 40 jumps, no?


BrianM  (D 661)

Jan 1, 2011, 7:06 PM
Post #12 of 22 (1286 views)
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Re: [PiLFy] Equipment weight limit [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
215#s places him in Expert territory. A tall order for someone w/only 40 jumps, no?

I was going to post the same thing. Zywo44's wing loading on that 190 will be 1.13. That's quite high for 40 jumps.

Of course his wing loading on the Tempo 170 listed in his profile will be 1.27... Crazy

Brian Germain's chart recommends a 230.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 1, 2011, 7:40 PM
Post #13 of 22 (1272 views)
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Re: [Zywo44] Equipment weight limit [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Here's the bottom line - with respect to weight limits in terms of equipment survivability and functionality, 215 lbs. is well within what the equipment can handle.

Does that mean that you are free to do whatever you please with it? No, you can easily exceed the speed limitations of the gear while freeflying, or in anything but a stable, belly to earth position. If you attempt to deploy, or have an accidental deployment at those speeds, equipment damage may occur.

It terms of your ability to safely operate a 190 main or 170 reserve at your weight, that's dependent on your training and ability. The wingloading on your main is bordering on the high side of what is normally reccomended for your expereince level. The wingloading on your reserve is definately too high, and you should look into trading up to at least a 190 reserve.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jan 1, 2011, 7:53 PM
Post #14 of 22 (1265 views)
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Re: [PiLFy] Equipment weight limit [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
215#s places him in Expert territory. A tall order for someone w/only 40 jumps, no?

Since you are newer to the sport:

Don't worry about that.

Don't take the weights listed as gospel. Early PD numbers on zero p main canopies were very conservative and low. Zero p was new to the sport, but even within a few years, "everyone" was exceeding the numbers.

So some canopies have realistic numbers on them, and some have cover-the-company's-ass conservative numbers on them.


PiLFy  (A License)

Jan 2, 2011, 6:00 AM
Post #15 of 22 (1228 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Equipment weight limit [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
215#s places him in Expert territory. A tall order for someone w/only 40 jumps, no?

Since you are newer to the sport:

Don't worry about that.

Don't take the weights listed as gospel. Early PD numbers on zero p main canopies were very conservative and low. Zero p was new to the sport, but even within a few years, "everyone" was exceeding the numbers.

So some canopies have realistic numbers on them, and some have cover-the-company's-ass conservative numbers on them.

I'm not arguing w/someone who has >20yrs in the sport. A point of confusion, then. My concern for equipment failure is due to the canopy's age. My understanding of his being in "Expert" territory. Is that the canopy will fly much more aggressively @that wing-loading. Is that not that entire purpose of providing suggested wing loadings?


dragon2  (D 101989)

Jan 2, 2011, 6:40 AM
Post #16 of 22 (1219 views)
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Re: [PiLFy] Equipment weight limit [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
My concern for equipment failure is due to the canopy's age

Why?

In general, age has little to do with how "good" a canopy is. Unless it's in reverse, you getting a good deal on a closet queen Tongue

You should be more interested in how many jumps it has, how it's been treated (packing, storage, any water landings or beach/desert sand) and how the lines are than just going by age itself. If a rigger says the canopy is ok, it's ok. The only "hard" age limit is the limit set by the manufacturer and/or your national skydiving association, other than that, nothing wrong with "older" gear just because it's old.


Martini  (D 23756)

Jan 2, 2011, 9:19 AM
Post #17 of 22 (1169 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Equipment weight limit [In reply to] Can't Post

I have hundreds of jumps on Sabre 1-170, 150 and 135. I figured out that I am too fat to jump a Sabre 1-135. The practical limit on wing-loading a Sabre 1 is around 1.5 pounds per square foot, If you load a Sabre 1 heavier than that, the glide ratio and flare suffer ... and so will your ankles.
In reply to:

I won't argue about your being too fat for the 135 Wink but disagree on the 1.5 w/l. I fly my old Sabre 120 at 1.66 and my 107 at 1.86 (exit weight 200 lbs). They both open, fly and land very nicely but the 120 easily out-swoops the 107 which is probably a little overloaded. I would say that the max weights listed by PD were a little conservative.

Obviously I would NEVER recommend these wingloadings at low jump numbers Frown, just showing the range these canopies have. BTW the original Sabre slider is the same size from 107 through 170, that might explain the reputation of hard openings particularly on the 170. 190, 210, 230 all used a larger slider. Great canopies but line trim makes a huge difference particularly at opening.

To the OP: I won't make suggestions on your wingloading, that's between you and your instructors. My perception is that your canopy, if in good condition, would not be unsafe loaded at 1.13.


Zywo44  (B 35721)

Jan 7, 2011, 10:33 AM
Post #18 of 22 (1044 views)
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Re: [Martini] Equipment weight limit [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks to everyone so far, it seems like me jumping this canopy won't be an issue as for as possible equipment damage etc. As for the wing-loading goes, I have done about 10 jumps on a 210 and will most likely do 20-30 more before attemping to jump this 190.

As far as the "oldness" of the canopy goes: while it was made in '92 it has 600 jumps on it and I wsa told it was re-lined at 500 jumps. My rigger has checked it out and said it's good to go. I have heard of sabre 1's getting between 1000-1500 jumps if kept in good shape...I would think this canopy easily has 400-500 jumps left in it right?


Martini  (D 23756)

Jan 8, 2011, 6:10 PM
Post #19 of 22 (981 views)
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Re: [Zywo44] Equipment weight limit [In reply to] Can't Post

More than likely you'll be tired of the canopy long before it's too tired to fly. BTW I just looked at the max gross on my '93 107, it's listed as 117 lbs. I think you might be OK loading yours at 6 lbs over gross. Just go jump it.


ryan_d_sucks  (B License)

Jan 11, 2011, 7:40 AM
Post #20 of 22 (857 views)
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Re: [Zywo44] Equipment weight limit [In reply to] Can't Post

I actually contacted PD a few months ago when I bought a used PDR 160. I weigh about 210, and I bought a PDR BECAUSE they are TSO'd to 254 lbs.. HOWEVER- when I received my 1993 PDR 160, it had a TSO to only 160 pounds or so.. So I called PD to get an answer..

The answer: These canopies were all originally TSO'd to 254 lbs. However, in the early 90s people began flying square parachutes at wingloadings far too high for THEIR flying ability (not the canopy's ability). Often these flights resulted in landing injuries. So, PD elected to manually de-rate their canopies, and post a weight limit on them that would not exceed a wingloading of approx 1:1. Now that people regularly jump canopies at wingloads of 1.5 and up (with proper training), PD has returned their canopies to the TSO class that rates them for their actual weight limits. So, the PDR that was made in 1993 is exactly the same specifications as the PDR made today, and originally held the same TSO rating.

This was the case for the PDR's. I would contact PD to see if something similar wasn't done for their main canopies.


(This post was edited by ryan_d_sucks on Jan 11, 2011, 7:44 AM)


Martini  (D 23756)

Jan 11, 2011, 2:17 PM
Post #21 of 22 (798 views)
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Re: [ryan_d_sucks] Equipment weight limit [In reply to] Can't Post

Also one should keep in mind that jumping a canopy over the manufacturer's listed maximum weight will void the warranty.


virgin-burner

Jan 11, 2011, 2:27 PM
Post #22 of 22 (793 views)
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Re: [PiLFy] Equipment weight limit [In reply to] Can't Post

i've made 200 jumps with my sabre, hasnt opened hard ONCE. everyone who says differently is a pack-slut! Wink



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